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naumuk(at)alltel.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 9:40 am Post subject: Panel questions

All-

     Just sprung (Sprang? Emptied my  checking account!) for a Dynon D-100. It comes with a remote compass. I'd  normally ask EAA, but they're closed today. Do I still have to have a whiskey  compass? I have a nice Airpath, but what's the sense of taking up panel space  and weight if I don't have to? The D-100 also has a build in voltmeter, so I  might have some brand new or like new instruments up for sale.

     I've been to several hardware  stores and spent hours on the net but still can't find a handle for my header  shutoff. Well, I could use a plumbing handle, but you can imagine the razzing  I'd take for the "H" or "C". Has to fit over a 1/2" rod. It shouldn't be  threaded- I'll either modify it with setscrews or a drift pin. Any ideas?  Picture attached. Remember, on an HDS this is all scratch-built stuff so I don't  have a clue.

     Finally, I haven't been able to  find a decently priced, functional used Mode C transponder for weeks. Any  leads appreciated.

     Thanks, guys.

 Bill Naumuk

Townville, Pa.

HDS 601MG/Corvair  95%

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TxDave

Joined: 22 Jul 2006
Posts: 168
Location: Temple, TX

Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:29 am Post subject: Re: Panel questions

Hey Bill,



You might find one by watching the Avionics List. I've found some good deals on instruments and a transceiver. Just click on the Transponder link on the left side of the page.



http://www.avionicslist.com/index.php



Dave Clay

amyvega2005(at)earthlink.
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:29 am Post subject: Panel questions

Do what ever you want, but I have a full Dynon set up,  with the Whiskey compass on the dash, and any pilot worth their salt , would want that back up. 

Some schmoes will tell ou to forgo it,  but if and when the electrical goes and you are 6,000 ft up at 120 knots, and 2 hours from home,  will they be there to tell you, sorry they were wrong in suggesting you not having it?  



Juan Vega



--

naumuk(at)alltel.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:37 am Post subject: Panel questions

Great lead, Dave. Thanks.

                                                    Bill

---

naumuk(at)alltel.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:50 am Post subject: Panel questions

Juan-

    I was just wondering if you could legally get by without one. I have 

dual backups with the Dynon lithion battery and a battery powered GPS.

    Be honest now. When's the last time you used a whiskey compass for 

anything other than setting a DG?

                                                                    Bill

---

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 11:10 am Post subject: Panel questions

Hi Bill & Juan,



I can see this discussion going either way.



I have heard about DARs who wouldn't give an air worthiness 

certificate without a whisky compass, but a cheap automotive one will 

do.  I've also heard about more modern oriented DARs willing to allow 

the electronic mag. compass in the Dynon to suffice for this requirement.



If, like most pilots, you have a battery powered GPS, then it can 

provide complete navigation information so long as the batteries hold 

out.  Most aviation GPS units also include a virtual instrument panel 

which can tell you lots more than just your heading (actually track). 

You can also get battery backup capability for the Dynon.



It is easy for me to imagine flying without a whiskey compass.  The 

only time I ever use one is to set the DG (which the Dynon does 

automatically) and for those horrible partial panel instrument flight 

exercises where all you get is the needle, ball, and airspeed along 

with the whiskey compass and hopefully a clock to make turns.



Have fun,



Paul

XL getting close

At 11:26 AM 9/28/2008, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Do what ever you want, but I have a full Dynon set up,  with the 

Whiskey compass on the dash, and any pilot worth their salt , would 

want that back up.

Some schmoes will tell ou to forgo it,  but if and when the 

electrical goes and you are 6,000 ft up at 120 knots, and 2 hours 

from home,  will they be there to tell you, sorry they were wrong in 

suggesting you not having it?



Juan Vega

annken100

Joined: 15 Nov 2007
Posts: 62

Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 12:15 pm Post subject: Re: Panel questions

Bill,



I've read stories of some DARs accepting electronic magnetometers without a whiskey compass and some who insist on a whiskey compass.  My understanding of the regs is that you need a magnetic device onboard that displays your heading.  I don't think the regs specifically state that it must be a whiskey compass.  The EDC-10a from Dynon is a magnetic device therefore one could argue that it satisfies the requirements.  I think the bottom line is to do what your DAR requires to get your airworthiness certificate.  If the DAR says a whiskey compass is required, put a cheesy compass in and then remove it afterwards if you are thinking you don't want a compass in the plane.



I guess I'll be the first "schmoe" to say that I personally don't want a compass sitting on top of my panel.  I have redundant EFIS units each with their own magnetometer along with a GPS.  In the event of an electrical failure or my battery falling out of the plane, both EFIS units and the GPS have their own internal batteries.  I also have a backup battery in case the internal batteries don't work and a small handheld GPS.  I figure the chances of both EFIS units, both magnetometers, and the GPS failing all at once is quite small.  Furthermore,  even if I lost all electrical power or my entire panel fell out of the plane, I could always pull out my sectional and navigate by that old reliable way of getting around called pilotage.



It all comes down to what you are comfortable with.



Good Luck,



Ken Pavlou

_________________
601 XL / Corvair

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 1:16 pm Post subject: Panel questions

I have a $10 Walmart compass stuck to my canopy. It's an Airguide brand, weighs a couple of ounces and is marked in degrees as well as the eight cardinal directions. It has compensators to zero it out and it works like a charm. If your DAR won't sign off without a compass, this one should do fine.



For the fuel valve, you could grind flats into the end of the shaft and drill and tap the center for a screw and then the handle off a ball valve might fit it. Or you can make a handle out of a piece of flat stock by cutting a hole in one end to fit the end of the shaft and secure it with a screw and washer.

For transponders, you might try eBay: http://tinyurl.com/3fuh9v there's a few of them listed there.



On Sep 28, 2008, at 1:36 PM, Bill Naumuk wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  All-

    Just sprung (Sprang? Emptied my checking account!) for a Dynon D-100. It comes with a remote compass. I'd normally ask EAA, but they're closed today. Do I still have to have a whiskey compass? I have a nice Airpath, but what's the sense of taking up panel space and weight if I don't have to? The D-100 also has a build in voltmeter, so I might have some brand new or like new instruments up for sale.

    I've been to several hardware stores and spent hours on the net but still can't find a handle for my header shutoff. Well, I could use a plumbing handle, but you can imagine the razzing I'd take for the "H" or "C". Has to fit over a 1/2" rod. It shouldn't be threaded- I'll either modify it with setscrews or a drift pin. Any ideas? Picture attached. Remember, on an HDS this is all scratch-built stuff so I don't have a clue.

    Finally, I haven't been able to find a decently priced, functional used Mode C transponder for weeks. Any leads appreciated.

    Thanks, guys.

Bill Naumuk

Townville, Pa.

HDS 601MG/Corvair 95%<Console right.jpg>



	






 -- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.



 



 [quote][b]

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 1:43 pm Post subject: Re: Panel questions

Bingo... We have a winner. 



The regulations require a compass. The Dynon provides that. Unfortunately there are some DAR that don't understand the law and will give you a hassle if you don't have a we compass so put the cheapest and most removable whiskey compass you can find.

 	  bryanmmartin wrote: 	
		  I have a $10 Walmart compass stuck to my canopy.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 1:53 pm Post subject: Panel questions

Below are links to pictures of panels delivered by AMD (steam and glass gauges). Of the ones with glass I only see a wet compass in one: N7812P. As others have said the regs say something like “magnetic indicating device”. Maybe AMD just has a friendly DAR.  

   

In the Nov ‘08 issue of Kitplanes in Unusual Attitude Ed Wischmeyer wrote this “Did you know that Light Sport Aircraft do not need a magnetic compass? They can do everything on GPS.”. I’m not sure of his basis for this, maybe because LSA are restricted to day VFR? I’d still have a “magnetic indicating device if only because the GPS network does go down.  

   

(http://www.kitplanes.com/issues/25_11/builder_spotlight/issues_builderspotlight_8461-1.phtml - subscription required)  

   

I’m happy with a backup battery on my glass and the internal battery in my GPS. But I also have a 3 inch round Flight II from MGL providing airspeed and RPM – something my GPS can’t provide.  

   

AMD Steam:  

http://newplane.com/650/N55ZC-005.jpg  

http://newplane.com/650/N6170G-A.jpg  

http://newplane.com/650/N342RJ-C.jpg  

http://newplane.com/650/N701DP_026.jpg  

http://newplane.com/650/N807HA-1.jpg  

   

AMD Glass:  

http://newplane.com/650/N39DN_Panel-002.jpg  

http://newplane.com/650/N601NM-A.jpg  

http://newplane.com/650/N7812P-004.jpg  

http://newplane.com/650/N329JG_H.jpg  

http://newplane.com/650/DSC_0376.jpg  

http://newplane.com/650/DSC_0768s.jpg  

http://newplane.com/650/N183AM_001.jpg  

   

-- Craig  

   

       [quote][b]

georgerace

Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Posts: 788
Location: Albion, MI

Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 1:54 pm Post subject: Panel questions

Hi Bill:

  

 A few months ago I was visited by our local  FSDO FAA Inspector for my airworthiness certificate.  I have an  automotive digital compas with a remote reading temp gauge center mounted on the  top of the panel.  I ask if the compas was OK and was told that the  aircraft was experimental so it was not a problem.

  

      George

 N73EX - FLYING



   From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill  Naumuk

Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2008 1:37 PM

To: zenith  list

Subject: Panel questions

 

 All-

     Just sprung (Sprang? Emptied my  checking account!) for a Dynon D-100. It comes with a remote compass. I'd  normally ask EAA, but they're closed today. Do I still have to have a whiskey  compass? I have a nice Airpath, but what's the sense of taking up panel space  and weight if I don't have to? The D-100 also has a build in voltmeter, so I  might have some brand new or like new instruments up for sale.

     I've been to several hardware  stores and spent hours on the net but still can't find a handle for my header  shutoff. Well, I could use a plumbing handle, but you can imagine the razzing  I'd take for the "H" or "C". Has to fit over a 1/2" rod. It shouldn't be  threaded- I'll either modify it with setscrews or a drift pin. Any ideas?  Picture attached. Remember, on an HDS this is all scratch-built stuff so I don't  have a clue.

     Finally, I haven't been able to  find a decently priced, functional used Mode C transponder for weeks. Any  leads appreciated.

     Thanks, guys.

 Bill Naumuk

Townville, Pa.

HDS 601MG/Corvair  95%

   [quote][b]

_________________
Check out my CH-701 project at:
http://www.mykitairplane.com

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 3:48 pm Post subject: Panel questions

The regulations (91.205) require a "magnetic direction indicator" but they do not specify what type of indicator is required, so any device that senses the earth's magnetic field and displays directional information derived from that sensor should meet the requirement. Nowhere does it specify that a wet compass is necessary. Technically, 91.205 only applies to aircraft with standard airworthiness certificates but I believe the operating limitations issued with an experimental certificate state that 91.205 must be complied with.



My $10 Walmart compass is the only magnetic direction indicator installed in my airplane and it's there primarily to satisfy the regulations. The remote magnetic sensor in your Dynon should also satisfy the regulations but that doesn't mean the DAR will sign off on it. When my plane was signed off, I had an vertical card compass installed so I don't know what he would have thought of the Walmart compass. I bought the Walmart compass after being unable to properly zero out the very expensive aircraft compass in a couple of different locations on the panel. It might have worked mounted on the canopy where I now have the Walmart compass but it was too big and heavy to mount there. I sold the aircraft compass on eBay and kept the Walmart compass in the airplane.



On Sep 28, 2008, at 1:36 PM, Bill Naumuk wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  All-

    Just sprung (Sprang? Emptied my checking account!) for a Dynon D-100. It comes with a remote compass. I'd normally ask EAA, but they're closed today. Do I still have to have a whiskey compass? I have a nice Airpath, but what's the sense of taking up panel space and weight if I don't have to? The D-100 also has a build in voltmeter, so I might have some brand new or like new instruments up for sale.

    I've been to several hardware stores and spent hours on the net but still can't find a handle for my header shutoff. Well, I could use a plumbing handle, but you can imagine the razzing I'd take for the "H" or "C". Has to fit over a 1/2" rod. It shouldn't be threaded- I'll either modify it with setscrews or a drift pin. Any ideas? Picture attached. Remember, on an HDS this is all scratch-built stuff so I don't have a clue.

    Finally, I haven't been able to find a decently priced, functional used Mode C transponder for weeks. Any leads appreciated.

    Thanks, guys.

Bill Naumuk

Townville, Pa.

HDS 601MG/Corvair 95%



	


 -- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.



 



 [quote][b]

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

naumuk(at)alltel.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 4:28 pm Post subject: Panel questions

All-

     Thanks for all the input. I  found a transponder, and as I said earlier, I already have a good Airpath  whiskey compass. I'll just hang onto it until I find out what the DAR will  accept.

                                                             Bill

 [quote]   ---

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 4:30 pm Post subject: Panel questions

On Sun, Sep 28, 2008 at 03:53:12PM -0600, Craig Payne wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Below are links to pictures of panels delivered by AMD (steam and glass

 gauges). Of the ones with glass I only see a wet compass in one: N7812P. As

 others have said the regs say something like "magnetic indicating device".

 Maybe AMD just has a friendly DAR.

 http://newplane.com/650/N55ZC-005.jpg


	


My airplane has a magnetic compass on the right end of the panel. It's a

TSOd vertical card compass from Precision Aviation, Inc.

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC                   http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com      http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (FRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

notsew_evets(at)frontiern
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 4:32 pm Post subject: Panel questions

Is the remote compas a "Magnetic direction device".??





---

notsew_evets(at)frontiern
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 4:38 pm Post subject: Panel questions

The regs state "A magnetic Direction Device"...

I ve had arguments over this with FAA, DARs and IAs.  I lost!  Each showed 

me the section in the CFRs and I lost..



SW

---

Jeyoung65(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 5:37 pm Post subject: Panel questions

I am guessing this is a experimental build aircraft so the aircraft will  not need any thing. What regulations are you looking at? No if the pilot wants  to fly the aircraft he used will have requirements. I Think!!! Jerry of GA

  

  In a message dated 9/28/2008 5:44:35 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  wrgiacona(at)gmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona"    <wrgiacona(at)gmail.com>



Bingo... We have a winner. 



The    regulations require a compass. The Dynon provides that. Unfortunately there    are some DAR that don't understand the law and will give you a hassle if you    don't have a we compass so put the cheapest and most removable whiskey compass    you can find.



bryanmmartin wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I have a $10 Walmart    compass stuck to my canopy. 


	




--------

W.R.    &quot;Gig&quot; Giacona

601XL Under Construction

See my progress    at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR





Read this topic online    here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=206621#206621

	




Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial challenge/aol?redir=http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001" href="tp://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001" target="_blank">Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and calculators.

  [quote][b]

ashleyw(at)gvtc.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 6:04 pm Post subject: Panel questions

Depends on the use of the aircraft.

 For VFR possibly no instruments are required, however, for  night or IFR the Operating Limitations issued by the DAR will  include:

  

 After completion of Phase I flight testing, unless  appropiately equipped for night and/or insturment flight in accordance with FAR  Section 91.205, this aircraft is to be operated under VFR, day  only.

  

 By the way, my plane passed the inspection without a  compass. YMMV

  

 Floyd Wilkes

 601XL O-200 Phase 1 complete.

  

  

  

 [quote]   ---

notsew_evets(at)frontiern
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 7:28 pm Post subject: Panel questions

Two years ago I called Joe Norris at EAA. Joe is the EAA  Guru.....  He said VFR day no compass was required.  My local FAA and  IA said Joe was wrong and showed me the written regs.  I dont have the  numbers off my head right now but I was convenced to install the magnetic  compass..

  

 SW

 [quote]   ---

notsew_evets(at)frontiern
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 7:56 pm Post subject: Panel questions

And to further my experience:::

 As I read the Regs I understand that for VFR day the airplane  needs NOTHING...

 No AS,  Alt,Compass...NOTHING.  The battle of wits  goes on.  I guess its up to your inspector and how he feels that particular  day.....

 SW

 [quote]   ---

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