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Rowland_Carson
Joined: 04 Jul 2008 Posts: 155 Location: Cheltenham, England
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Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 1:20 pm Post subject: emergency exits [was: Re: Jos Okhuisen] |
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At 2008-09-04 22:43 +0000 Duncan & Ami McFadyean wrote:
Quote: | Regarding the RV that flipped on to its back at Fishburn recently,
the pilot commented that he would have preferred to have had a small
2lb axe to have been able to get out. It was the rescuers that
enabled exit through the broken canopy. He considered that the small
"lifesaver" hammers were a complete waste of time.
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Duncan - sorry to be so late responding to this - your mail was
timestamped as 1988 which meant it was hidden behind a few thousand
others in my mailbox; looks like you need to fix the date & time
(and-or the keep-alive battery) on your machine.
The lifesaver hammers are intended to break safety glass as found in
cars; they are not designed to be effective on the acrylic
transparencies typically found in light aeroplanes. The best way to
break an acrylic window is to try drilling a hole in it and fitting a
rivet!
regards
Rowland
--
| Rowland Carson LAA #16532 http://home.clara.net/rowil/aviation/
| 1110 hours building Europa #435 G-ROWI e-mail <rowil(at)clara.net>
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n100rh(at)sbcglobal.net Guest
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Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 8:39 pm Post subject: emergency exits [was: Re: Jos Okhuisen] |
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The AOPA seminar a few years back on how to survive a crash was great.
They asked what the fire extinguisher was for and everyone gave the
obvious question.
The speaker said "no, it's useless for almost all fires you're likely to
encounter in flight. Use it to spray on the plexiglass to freeze it and
then use it to hammer your way out through the window".
Rowland & Wilma Carson wrote:
Quote: |
<rowil(at)clara.net>
At 2008-09-04 22:43 +0000 Duncan & Ami McFadyean wrote:
> Regarding the RV that flipped on to its back at Fishburn recently,
> the pilot commented that he would have preferred to have had a small
> 2lb axe to have been able to get out. It was the rescuers that
> enabled exit through the broken canopy. He considered that the small
> "lifesaver" hammers were a complete waste of time.
Duncan - sorry to be so late responding to this - your mail was
timestamped as 1988 which meant it was hidden behind a few thousand
others in my mailbox; looks like you need to fix the date & time
(and-or the keep-alive battery) on your machine.
The lifesaver hammers are intended to break safety glass as found in
cars; they are not designed to be effective on the acrylic
transparencies typically found in light aeroplanes. The best way to
break an acrylic window is to try drilling a hole in it and fitting a
rivet!
regards
Rowland
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josok-e(at)ukolo.fi Guest
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Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 1:12 am Post subject: emergency exits [was: Re: Jos Okhuisen] |
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Hi All,
Back home again. Feels good, although no house is build to move around in a wheelchair. It will take a few more weeks before i am allowed to use my legs again. Anyhow, i thought i would like to share some more thoughts about the incident. From a good source i learned that mogas or avgas, spayed, sprikled or throw at/on hot surfaces will not ignite. It takes a good spark to start a fire. But a drop of oil on an exhaust pipe will burn immediatly. In this particular case the turbo oil lines or pump were most probably smashed, and the oil started the fire, later fed by fuel.
The much feared long range tank, also full of fuel, survived the ordeal intact. Only the top caved in a bit because of the heat.
The reverse prop is a red herring. I am pretty sure that the reverse function has nothing to do with the accident. So please folks, be cautious, also if your installation does not have reverse or vane.
It would be a very good idea to have a very critical look at your installation, because it is your life. Maybe an open minded discussion about possible fault scenarios would be a good idea. For obvious reasons i can not point my finger, or take part in such a discussion. But i am sure others will
Did i miss something or has the Rotax tactory and it's news been forgotten?
Hmm, that's about 4 subjects in one message. Would it have been better to write 4 messages? W'll see.
Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
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grahamsingleton(at)btinte Guest
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Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 1:29 am Post subject: emergency exits [was: Re: Jos Okhuisen] |
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Jos
Mike Costin once told us that, many years ago, he also said that oil
fires are very difficult to put out. (Mike used to make Cosworth racing
engines and knows a lot about these things.
Graham
josok wrote:
Quote: |
Hi All,
i thought i would like to share some more thoughts about the incident. From a good source i learned that mogas or avgas, spayed, sprikled or throw at/on hot surfaces will not ignite. It takes a good spark to start a fire. But a drop of oil on an exhaust pipe will burn immediatly. In this particular case the turbo oil lines or pump were most probably smashed, and the oil started the fire, later fed by fuel.
Jos Okhuijsen
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rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.n Guest
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Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 6:21 am Post subject: emergency exits [was: Re: Jos Okhuisen] |
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Hi Jos
Glad to hear you are home and in good spirits! Best wishes on your
recovery, keep giving everyone hell!
"From a good source i learned that mogas or avgas, spayed, sprikled or
throw at/on hot surfaces will not ignite."
Your source is not good, but in fact very bad.
See:
http://contrails.free.fr/engine_burn_baby_burn_en.php
It is true that oil has a lower auto-ignition temperature than 100LL, but
get fuel to 500 degrees F and it will auto-ignite! Get Evans to 700F and
it too will auto-ignite. The exhaust can reach auto-ignition temperature
for oil, fuel and coolant.
You can't plan for all trauma that may happen in a aircraft, but IMHO it
is bad practice to use aluminium fittings firewall forward. Brass is
better, SS or steel better yet. Aluminium has more of a chance of failing
and be the cause.
Ron Parigoris
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josok-e(at)ukolo.fi Guest
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Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 9:15 am Post subject: emergency exits [was: Re: Jos Okhuisen] |
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Hi Ron,
My information is right. The site you mention, which impresses by its scientific odor has been proved questionable before. My own experience, long ago, driving fast on a motorway. Wondering where the fuel smell came from. Nobody in front me, decided to stop and check. Opened the hood, and saw fuel spraying from a broken fuel line straight onto the hotspot, hissing away.
Your preference for brass over aluminium is great, but did you remember to change the carburettors? How about the oil pump? Ah, and the carter, barrelss?
Sorry, just joking
Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
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rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.n Guest
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Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 10:14 am Post subject: emergency exits [was: Re: Jos Okhuisen] |
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Hi Jos
Gilles was kind enough to put "my test information" on his site.
Your information is absolutely incorrect.
If you reach the auto-ignition temperature, that is the temperature that
the substance will auto ignite.
Your experience and subsequent conclusion that since fuel squirted in your
car and didn't ignite, thus that must be the worst case scenario, is not
in fact the case.
First off what was the percentage of power your motor was making and for
how long? I know if I drive my Volvo Turbo Wagon at 75MPH on flat ground
and if I pull right over the exhaust manifold is just barely glowing. If I
tote my balloon trailer and set manifold pressure to 29.92 inches, lets
say I am making 45% power, yikes if I pull over I can easily read from the
glow of the manifold that is way beyond red hot! If you take a 914 that is
tooting at 115% power for a minute, I am certain it is a lot hotter than
my 45% powered Volvo and I can say without hesitation if you spew fuel on
it it will auto ignite. My gut feeling is 65% power on a 914 is plenty to
heat turbo/manifold to auto-ignition.
As far as my preference for non aluminium fittings FWF, it is the same
preference as local DAR and IA aeroplane mechanics. They have seen plenty
of fittings fail. Remember that the fittings are the interface between a
stationary airframe and a wiggling motor. Fatigue cracking is a lot more
common than you may think according to their experience.
Yes a carb and other motor items are aluminium, but the stresses imposed
are often reasonable. In addition to fatigue cracking, aluminium will fail
far easier than steel if you stress. Give a try of an aluminium and also a
steel barb fitting stressed to failure and you will see what I mean.
Your motor can wiggle around an awful lot if prop gets out of balance, or
if fuel distribution is compromised or a cylinder fails to fire properly
for whatever reason, or if you put a trauma to your aeroplane.
Ron Parigoris
BTW I just went out with my Volvo Turbo Wagon, climbed up a 1/4 mile long
hill that is bout 200 feet high with about 34 inches MP, pulled over on a
side street, and poured a half a soda cap filled with fuel on the manifold
with motor off, instant ignition! My test on Gilles site was with 100LL,
this one was with 92 octane mogas.
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frans(at)paardnatuurlijk. Guest
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Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 1:34 pm Post subject: emergency exits [was: Re: Jos Okhuisen] |
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[quote:f6ee39b1f3="josok"]Hi Ron,
My own experience, long ago, driving fast on a motorway. Wondering where the fuel smell came from. Nobody in front me, decided to stop and check. Opened the hood, and saw fuel spraying from a broken fuel line straight onto the hotspot, hissing away.
[/quote:f6ee39b1f3]
My experience, trying to start an engine. I had used the choke too much. The cylinders were soaked with fuel, and the spark plugs were sparking, but nothing happened.
The lesson here is that you can't ignite gas with a spark.
Nonsens of course. Gas will ignite, if the circumstances are right. It depends on temperature, gas/air mixture ratio, etc.
A hot surface will ignite gas, if the temperature is high enough, and if the mass of the hot surface is large enough (so that the vaporizing fuel doesn't lower the temperature below the ignition point) and the air/gas mixture is not too far off.
Fuel is a risk, as is oil or any other combustible material. In general, the easier substance will vaporize, the easier it will ignite and cause enough heat to vaporize some more, etc.
Aluminium fuel lines are a risk too. With the wrong length, it will resonance and quickly fail. Even professionals will fall into this trap: the Thielert engine had a few failures with cracked fuel lines, finally leading to an AD to replace them. With our homebuilts, we can never be sure if there is no particular length of aluminium that doesn't resonate on an engine vibration, or fuselage flexing.
Of course rubber fuel hoses have their own risks as well, mainly due to aging. But replace them once in a while and you are pretty safe. You can't avoid the use of hoses anyway as the final connection to the engine can't be a solid line.
Frans
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
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Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno Guest
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Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 12:10 pm Post subject: emergency exits [was: Re: Jos Okhuisen] |
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josok a écrit :
Quote: | The site you mention, which impresses by its scientific odor has been proved questionable before.
Dear Mr Josok Okhuisen,
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According to your last message to the Europa List, the unaware reader
could get the impression that it may contain negative comments about my
website, http://contrails.free.fr.
Of course, this impression may be false, and if so, please accept my
apology.
If on the contrary, you happen to have actually found questionable or
erroneous content in the said website , please be so kind as to propose,
in a courteous and polite manner, sufficient solid data to allow the
pilots, instructors, engineers and experienced homebuilders who
participate in the content to realize their errors and correct them.
In particular, we would be grateful if you would expand (off line
please) when, to what extent, and on which specific subject it was
"proven questionable before".
Of course I am aware that on some subjects, the proposed findings
happened in the past to be contrary to your own personal opinions, but
this doesn't in any manner prove that those findings are wrong !
Now if you are not in possession of reliable and verifiable engineering
or scientific data, or do not wish to honestly share it with the authors
of Contrails or the homebuilders community, please refrain from any
negative comments or allusions. Stop it.
Please accept my sincere sympathy about your mishap, and my best wishes
of recovery.
Best regards,
--
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
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thomas(at)scherer.com Guest
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Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 11:48 am Post subject: emergency exits [was: Re: Jos Okhuisen] |
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let me tell you from experience ... there is hardly any need for a hammer
(or an axe) with the Europa. While a metal plane might bend and encapsulate
the occupant, fiberglass simply shatters.
In my incident, the fuselage cracked right open along the rear window-line.
All we did was stand up and step over the instrument panel to freedom. (the
wheels had departed the plane at an earlier stage.)
In the worst case of an overturned plane which is intact, I'd guess a
healthy kick against the window will open the wreck.
Let's try avoid that scenario though ...
Sincerely,
<Thomas, N81EU>
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