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gary.algate(at)sandvik.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 10:29 pm Post subject: Timing gear

Interesting comments here re fretting of crank and timing gear for engines with the smaller flywheel bolts and no dowels. Sounds as though even the new recommended torque settings might be understated? 

 

Regards 

 

Gary 

 

http://contrails.free.fr/engine_jab_bolts.php

 

 Gary Algate

 SMC, Exploration

 Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655

 

 

 This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. [quote][b]

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 6:22 am Post subject: Timing gear

Yeah that was a real interesting period in the Jabiru history. There  

was a lot of back and forth among the Yahoo Jabiru Engine group,  

involving a spirited debate among several people, one of whom was  

quite "vocal", and it turns out he didn't even own an engine. It all  

revolved around how much to torque the bolts...how much it took  

before they stretched, how much 620 Loctite to put on the threads,  

where to put it, etc....and finally it died down and went away. I  

followed the Service Bulletin as did Michel in Norway, he even going  

so far as to post his pictures in his site, I believe. He can  

probably fill us in better on his involvement...Michel?



Bottom line for me was that I had the larger bolts and the dowels  

already in place, and only had to change the bolts, Loctite, and re- 

torque to comply with the SB. That was in Dec. of 2006, back when I  

had about...guessing....175 hours on the engine.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster

Jabiru 2200

Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try."  (Pink  

Floyd..."Learning to Fly")



On Aug 11, 2008, at 2:27 AM, gary.algate(at)sandvik.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Interesting comments here re fretting of crank and timing gear for  

 engines with the smaller flywheel bolts and no dowels. Sounds as  

 though even the new recommended torque settings might be understated?



 Regards



 Gary



 http://contrails.free.fr/engine_jab_bolts.php



 Gary Algate

 SMC, Exploration

 Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655

 This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the  

 addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of  

 this message by persons or entities other than the intended  

 recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error,  

 kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the  

 message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for  

 any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may  

 arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. _- 

 www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List _- 

 www.matronics.com/contribution _- 

 ============================================================

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 11:32 am Post subject: Timing gear

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: Lynn Matteson [lynnmatt(at)jps.net]

  He can probably fill us in better on his involvement...Michel?


	


Well, when the Service Bulletin came, I rang my Norwegian Jabiru dealer and asked him how to procede. I did exactly what he told me, then published it with photos in the purpose to make it easier for other owners.

But then someone meant that I should not have used the old bolts but buy new ones. Perhaps but the SB doesn't mention that and ... where to buy such bolts in a tiny country like Norway?

Anyway, the Yahoo Jabiru list had a few people who were out to do as many damage as possible and even one - as Lynn says - who didn't even own a Jabiru motor but ... he was quite good at writing and spreading doubt about the engine.



Unlike Lynn who gets high on the smell of engine oil, I don't know much about those things. But I can't understand why a company - any company - refuses customer support. It doesn't make sense and the world in not divided into the stupid bad people and the intelligent nice ones. Any engine manufacturer wish his customers to be pleased because hangar talk is the best marketing tool in sport aviation.



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 ... grounded for the moment

<pre><b><font size  color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

gary.algate(at)sandvik.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 4:02 pm Post subject: Timing gear

Damn - I thought I might have been on to something! 

I also spoke with Wayne Johns (Jabiru Service Tech) again and he asked if you were "gluing" the rotor buttons onto the spindles in the Distributor. Evidently it was found that if the rotor buttons aren't fitted with an epoxy or cicoflex they would wear slightly and then rattle on the spindles. This can result in a harmonic vibration thru the gear train that wears the drive gears. In a few cases the hard case was worn from two areas of the teeth resulting in failure. 

1 last point - do you have the cast cam shaft or the machined cam shaft - on earlier engines the cast camshaft was found to be weaker and it was replaced with a fully machined component. When I was considering updating my engine S/No 340 he told me that i should upgrade to the machined cam shaft! - maybe something to consider. 

By the time I looked at the cost of upgrading my engine it made more sense to go for a new (0) time replacement. Not that I had any problems with mine. 

Like most experimental engines (including Rotax)  these engines continue to evolve - I think this is why the more traditional Aero engines still look the same and basically operate the same as they did 40 yrs ago.  

No change = no risk = no liability 

Regards 

Gary 

 Gary Algate

 Classic4 jab2200

 Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655

 This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. 

Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net> 

Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com 

12/08/2008 12:01 AM 

Please respond to

 kitfox-list(at)matronics.com     To

 kitfox-list(at)matronics.com   cc

    Subject

 Re: Timing gear 

--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>

 Yeah that was a real interesting period in the Jabiru history. There  

 was a lot of back and forth among the Yahoo Jabiru Engine group,  

 involving a spirited debate among several people, one of whom was  

 quite "vocal", and it turns out he didn't even own an engine. It all  

 revolved around how much to torque the bolts...how much it took  

 before they stretched, how much 620 Loctite to put on the threads,  

 where to put it, etc....and finally it died down and went away. I  

 followed the Service Bulletin as did Michel in Norway, he even going  

 so far as to post his pictures in his site, I believe. He can  

 probably fill us in better on his involvement...Michel?

 Bottom line for me was that I had the larger bolts and the dowels  

 already in place, and only had to change the bolts, Loctite, and re- 

 torque to comply with the SB. That was in Dec. of 2006, back when I  

 had about...guessing....175 hours on the engine.

 Lynn Matteson

 Kitfox IV Speedster

 Jabiru 2200

 Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try."  (Pink  

 Floyd..."Learning to Fly")

 On Aug 11, 2008, at 2:27 AM, gary.algate(at)sandvik.com wrote:

 >

 > Interesting comments here re fretting of crank and timing gear for  

 > engines with the smaller flywheel bolts and no dowels. Sounds as  

 > though even the new recommended torque settings might be understated?

 >

 > Regards

 >

 > Gary

 >

 > http://contrails.free.fr/engine_jab_bolts.php

 >

 > Gary Algate

 > SMC, Exploration

 > Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655

 >

 >

 > This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the  

 > addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of  

 > this message by persons or entities other than the intended  

 > recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error,  

 > kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the  

 > message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for  

 > any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may  

 > arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. _- 

 > www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List _- 

 > www.matronics.com/contribution _- 

 > ============================================================

 -

 -

          -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 [quote][b]

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 6:34 am Post subject: Timing gear

I began gluing the rotors on after I got over being stubborn about  

NOT doing it....I had a couple start flopping around, and finally  

figured maybe Jabiru knew what they were talking about, even though  

it sounds ridiculous.



I gotta say that Jabiru can point to every drop of flys**t that lands  

on the engine and claim that that's what caused the problem! For  

example, they say that my problem might have been  caused by the  

extra clearance on the drive pins on a Sensenich propellor. Yet  

Sensenich claims that the prop is not driven by the drive pins/lugs,  

but by the torque of the bolts which creates a friction between the  

drive flange and the back of the prop. Jabiru has you check the  

torque every 100hrs, while Sensenich wants it done every 50 hrs. If  

Jabiru was so concerned about this prop issue being a problem, why  

don't they warn you to check torque more often? Nuff said about that  

for now.



I have the fully machined cam....no signs of it being a casting in  

any way, as compared to all the cams I've seen in my life. It is the  

only other cam I've seen that WAS fully machined besides a roller  

tappet cam that I once had in a Hemi.



Gary, if you would, please ask Wayne why doesn't Jabiru make the  

timing gear on the crankshaft fit with a slip fit over the end of the  

crankshaft, instead of it being squeezed between the end of crank and  

the flywheel? That way the nose of the crank would absorb the load  

behind the crank gear, instead of it being just hanging there in  

space so to speak. Also, ask him if the addition of Loctite 620 or  

some other suitable product would be recommended to use to fill the  

space between the nose of the crankshaft and the inside of the  

crankshaft gear, right behind the gear teeth. I'm concerned about  

this seeming space back there, and having another gear failure.  

Perhaps the gear does bear up against the crankshaft at that point  

but I can't tell because my gear doesn't show contact there...at  

least as far as I can tell looking at the broken pieces.



I'm also pondering the feasibility of going with a reconditioned  

engine, but I'd rather put this one back together and let it prove  

itself.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster

Jabiru 2200

Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try."  (Pink  

Floyd..."Learning to Fly")



On Aug 11, 2008, at 8:01 PM, gary.algate(at)sandvik.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Damn - I thought I might have been on to something!



 I also spoke with Wayne Johns (Jabiru Service Tech) again and he  

 asked if you were "gluing" the rotor buttons onto the spindles in  

 the Distributor. Evidently it was found that if the rotor buttons  

 aren't fitted with an epoxy or cicoflex they would wear slightly  

 and then rattle on the spindles. This can result in a harmonic  

 vibration thru the gear train that wears the drive gears. In a few  

 cases the hard case was worn from two areas of the teeth resulting  

 in failure.



 1 last point - do you have the cast cam shaft or the machined cam  

 shaft - on earlier engines the cast camshaft was found to be weaker  

 and it was replaced with a fully machined component. When I was  

 considering updating my engine S/No 340 he told me that i should  

 upgrade to the machined cam shaft! - maybe something to consider.



 By the time I looked at the cost of upgrading my engine it made  

 more sense to go for a new (0) time replacement. Not that I had any  

 problems with mine.



 Like most experimental engines (including Rotax)  these engines  

 continue to evolve - I think this is why the more traditional Aero  

 engines still look the same and basically operate the same as they  

 did 40 yrs ago.



 No change = no risk = no liability



 Regards



 Gary



 Gary Algate

 Classic4 jab2200

 Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655

 This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the  

 addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of  

 this message by persons or entities other than the intended  

 recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error,  

 kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the  

 message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for  

 any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may  

 arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.



 Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>

 Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com

 12/08/2008 12:01 AM

 Please respond to

 kitfox-list(at)matronics.com



 To

 kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 cc

 Subject

 Re: Timing gear



 



 Yeah that was a real interesting period in the Jabiru history. There

 was a lot of back and forth among the Yahoo Jabiru Engine group,

 involving a spirited debate among several people, one of whom was

 quite "vocal", and it turns out he didn't even own an engine. It all

 revolved around how much to torque the bolts...how much it took

 before they stretched, how much 620 Loctite to put on the threads,

 where to put it, etc....and finally it died down and went away. I

 followed the Service Bulletin as did Michel in Norway, he even going

 so far as to post his pictures in his site, I believe. He can

 probably fill us in better on his involvement...Michel?



 Bottom line for me was that I had the larger bolts and the dowels

 already in place, and only had to change the bolts, Loctite, and re-

 torque to comply with the SB. That was in Dec. of 2006, back when I

 had about...guessing....175 hours on the engine.



 Lynn Matteson

 Kitfox IV Speedster

 Jabiru 2200

 Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try."  (Pink

 Floyd..."Learning to Fly")



 On Aug 11, 2008, at 2:27 AM, gary.algate(at)sandvik.com wrote:



 >

 > Interesting comments here re fretting of crank and timing gear for

 > engines with the smaller flywheel bolts and no dowels. Sounds as

 > though even the new recommended torque settings might be  

 understated?

 >

 > Regards

 >

 > Gary

 >

 > http://contrails.free.fr/engine_jab_bolts.php

 >

 > Gary Algate

 > SMC, Exploration

 > Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655

 >

 >

 > This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the

 > addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of

 > this message by persons or entities other than the intended

 > recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error,

 > kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the

 > message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for

 > any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may

 > arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. _-

 > www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List _-

 > www.matronics.com/contribution _-

 > ============================================================

 -

 -

          -Matt Dralle, List Admin.





 www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List _- 

 www.matronics.com/contribution _- 

 ============================================================

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 10:12 am Post subject: Timing gear

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: Lynn Matteson [lynnmatt(at)jps.net] 

 I gotta say that Jabiru can point to every drop of flys**t that lands  

 on the engine and claim that that's what caused the problem!


	


Lynn, they can't do anything else but that. If they admit that the engine has a weak point, they risk a liability suit from each and every owner and it would mean bankrupcy and closing of the plant. On the other hand, when they know that there is a weakness with the engine, they have to publish a service bulletin but trying to make you think that it is not their fault. That's the way business works.

If the tobacco industry had to admit that their product has killed thousand of people, they may as well close the factories before going to trial. They know that, the judges know that and that's why no one is winning a case against the tobacco industry.



This being said, I understand very well how you feel and how you wish Jabiru should fix your problem. But look at the bright side; if it will cost you some money, you are still a good mechanic and you will put back your engine together in no time. If the same had happened to me ... I would have to ask you to come to Norway in order to fix my engine because I don't know anything about it. Of course, it would be wonderful to meet you but ... it would be a long way for me to go before I am back in the air ... if I ever will.



Cheers,

Michel

<pre><b><font size  color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

patreilly43(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 12:37 pm Post subject: Timing gear

Lynn C Just get a 582 with less moving parts to worry about that out climbs that 912 with 15 less HP and costs 1/2 as much.

    Do not archive

 Pat Reilly

 Mod 3 582 Rebuild

 Rockford C IL



 	  Quote: 	
		   Date: Tue C 12 Aug 2008 20:11:42 +0200

 From: michel(at)online.no

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Timing gear

 

 > From: Lynn Matteson [lynnmatt(at)jps.net] 

 > I gotta say that Jabiru can point to every drop of flys**t that lands 

 > on the engine and claim that that's what caused the problem!

 

 Lynn C they can't do anything else but that. If they admit that the engine has a weak point C they risk a liability suit from each and every owner and it would mean bankrupcy and closing of the plant. On the other hand C when they know that there is a weakness with the engine C they have to publish a service bulletin but trying to make you think that it is not their fault. That's the way business works.

 If the tobacco industry had to admit that their product has killed thousand of people C they may as well close the factories before going to trial. They know that C the judges know that and that's why no one is winning a case against the tobacco industry.

 

 This being said C I understand very well how you feel and how you wish Jabiru should fix your problem. But look at the bright side; if it will cost you some money C you are still a good mechanic and you will put back your engine together in no time. If the same had happened to me ... I would have to ask you to come to Norway in order to fix my engine because I don't know anything about it. Of course C it would be wonderful to meet you but ... it would be a long way for me to go before I am back in the air ... if I ever will.

 

 Cheers C

 Michel

 

 

 <pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new Ccourier">

ist">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List</a>

&ntribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution</a>
	


&gt============

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 </b></font></pre></body></html>

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 12:49 pm Post subject: Timing gear

You're right of course, Michel, and because it's a rarity for that  

gear to break, that makes it even more "my fault." But I'm going  

ahead with the parts cleanup, making an inventory of what I need to  

order, and getting on with it. I'm not crying in my beer, just  

letting off a little steam. Who knows, maybe if Jabiru sales fall off  

for the next few weeks, they'll send me free/cheap  parts as a symbol  

of truce, hoping I'll call off the dogs. (Yeah, right, as if what I  

could do here could possibly hurt them....HAH!)

When this is all said and done, I doubt you'll be reading a lot of my  

posts encouraging folks to buy any particular engine...I love the  

little s**t, but love can carry you only so far.

Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster

Jabiru 2200

Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try."  (Pink  

Floyd..."Learning to Fly")

do not archive

On Aug 12, 2008, at 2:11 PM, Michel Verheughe wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  > From: Lynn Matteson [lynnmatt(at)jps.net]

> I gotta say that Jabiru can point to every drop of flys**t that lands

> on the engine and claim that that's what caused the problem!

 Lynn, they can't do anything else but that. If they admit that the  

 engine has a weak point, they risk a liability suit from each and  

 every owner and it would mean bankrupcy and closing of the plant.  

 On the other hand, when they know that there is a weakness with the  

 engine, they have to publish a service bulletin but trying to make  

 you think that it is not their fault. That's the way business works.

 If the tobacco industry had to admit that their product has killed  

 thousand of people, they may as well close the factories before  

 going to trial. They know that, the judges know that and that's why  

 no one is winning a case against the tobacco industry.

 This being said, I understand very well how you feel and how you  

 wish Jabiru should fix your problem. But look at the bright side;  

 if it will cost you some money, you are still a good mechanic and  

 you will put back your engine together in no time. If the same had  

 happened to me ... I would have to ask you to come to Norway in  

 order to fix my engine because I don't know anything about it. Of  

 course, it would be wonderful to meet you but ... it would be a  

 long way for me to go before I am back in the air ... if I ever will.

 Cheers,

 Michel

 <pre><b><font size  color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">

 List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List</a>

 forums.matronics.com</a>

 www.matronics.com/contribution</a>

 </b></font></pre>

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 1:07 pm Post subject: Timing gear

2-stroke? I'll pass, Pat...thanks. My ears like the semi-low steady  

drone of a 4-stroke at low rpm, sucking minimal fuel. Climb is not  

that important to me, as I like to get away from the pattern and go  

places. And when this airplane bug crawled up my backside, it carried  

a sign saying "Do something different...don't follow the crowd", so  

I'm stickin' to that anthem, for better or worse....besides, don't  

the mighty 582's also fail from time to time? Even when I was flying  

model airplanes, I went for a 4-stroke as soon as I could find  

one...I like the sound, for whatever that's worth...and it's worth a  

lot to me. Just for what it's worth, I never got on the Chevvie V8  

bandwagon either, choosing to beat them with my Oldsmobile, and later  

Chrysler Hemi engines (yeah I know, I climbed on THAT bandwagon) : )

Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster

Jabiru 2200

Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try."  (Pink  

Floyd..."Learning to Fly")

do not archive

On Aug 12, 2008, at 4:36 PM, patrick reilly wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Lynn, Just get a 582 with less moving parts to worry about that out  

 climbs that 912 with 15 less HP and costs 1/2 as much.

    Do not archive

 Pat Reilly

 Mod 3 582 Rebuild

 Rockford, IL

 > Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 20:11:42 +0200

 > From: michel(at)online.no

 > To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 > Subject: RE: Timing gear

 >

 > > From: Lynn Matteson [lynnmatt(at)jps.net]

 > > I gotta say that Jabiru can point to every drop of flys**t that  

 lands

 > > on the engine and claim that that's what caused the problem!

 >

 > Lynn, they can't do anything else but that. If they admit that  

 the engine has a weak point, they risk a liability suit from each  

 and every owner and it would mean bankrupcy and closing of the  

 plant. On the other hand, when they know that there is a weakness  

 with the engine, they have to publish a service bulletin but trying  

 to make you think that it is not their fault. That's the way  

 business works.

 > If the tobacco industry had to admit that their product has  

 killed thousand of people, they may as well close the factories  

 before going to trial. They know that, the judges know that and  

 that's why no one is winning a case against the tobacco industry.

 >

 > This being said, I understand very well how you feel and how you  

 wish Jabiru should fix your problem. But look at the bright side;  

 if it will cost you some money, you are still a good mechanic and  

 you will put back your engine together in no time. If the same had  

 happened to me ... I would have to ask you to come to Norway in  

 order to fix my engine because I don't know anything about it. Of  

 course, it would be wonderful to meet you but ... it would be a  

 long way for me to go before I am back in the air ... if I ever will.

 >

 > Cheers,

 > Michel

 >

 >

 > <pre><b><font size  color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">

 >ist">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List</a>

 &ntribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution</a>

 >============

 >

 > </b></font></pre>

 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List_- 

 ============================================================ _- 

 forums.matronics.com_- 

 ============================================================ _- 

 contribution_- 

 ============================================================

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

gary.algate(at)sandvik.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 3:17 pm Post subject: Timing gear

I'll call Wayne today and get this email to him and get him to respond. 

 

regards 

 

Gary

 

 Gary Algate

 SMC, Exploration

 Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655

 

 

 This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. 

 

 

 

    

 

 

 

Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net> 

Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com 

13/08/2008 12:13 AM 

Please respond to

 kitfox-list(at)matronics.com     To

 kitfox-list(at)matronics.com   cc

    Subject

 Re: Timing gear 

     

 

 

 

--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>

 

 I began gluing the rotors on after I got over being stubborn about  

 NOT doing it....I had a couple start flopping around, and finally  

 figured maybe Jabiru knew what they were talking about, even though  

 it sounds ridiculous.

 

 I gotta say that Jabiru can point to every drop of flys**t that lands  

 on the engine and claim that that's what caused the problem! For  

 example, they say that my problem might have been  caused by the  

 extra clearance on the drive pins on a Sensenich propellor. Yet  

 Sensenich claims that the prop is not driven by the drive pins/lugs,  

 but by the torque of the bolts which creates a friction between the  

 drive flange and the back of the prop. Jabiru has you check the  

 torque every 100hrs, while Sensenich wants it done every 50 hrs. If  

 Jabiru was so concerned about this prop issue being a problem, why  

 don't they warn you to check torque more often? Nuff said about that  

 for now.

 

 I have the fully machined cam....no signs of it being a casting in  

 any way, as compared to all the cams I've seen in my life. It is the  

 only other cam I've seen that WAS fully machined besides a roller  

 tappet cam that I once had in a Hemi.

 

 Gary, if you would, please ask Wayne why doesn't Jabiru make the  

 timing gear on the crankshaft fit with a slip fit over the end of the  

 crankshaft, instead of it being squeezed between the end of crank and  

 the flywheel? That way the nose of the crank would absorb the load  

 behind the crank gear, instead of it being just hanging there in  

 space so to speak. Also, ask him if the addition of Loctite 620 or  

 some other suitable product would be recommended to use to fill the  

 space between the nose of the crankshaft and the inside of the  

 crankshaft gear, right behind the gear teeth. I'm concerned about  

 this seeming space back there, and having another gear failure.  

 Perhaps the gear does bear up against the crankshaft at that point  

 but I can't tell because my gear doesn't show contact there...at  

 least as far as I can tell looking at the broken pieces.

 

 I'm also pondering the feasibility of going with a reconditioned  

 engine, but I'd rather put this one back together and let it prove  

 itself.

 

 Lynn Matteson

 Kitfox IV Speedster

 Jabiru 2200

 Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try."  (Pink  

 Floyd..."Learning to Fly")

 

 

 

 

 

 On Aug 11, 2008, at 8:01 PM, gary.algate(at)sandvik.com wrote:

 

 >

 > Damn - I thought I might have been on to something!

 >

 > I also spoke with Wayne Johns (Jabiru Service Tech) again and he  

 > asked if you were "gluing" the rotor buttons onto the spindles in  

 > the Distributor. Evidently it was found that if the rotor buttons  

 > aren't fitted with an epoxy or cicoflex they would wear slightly  

 > and then rattle on the spindles. This can result in a harmonic  

 > vibration thru the gear train that wears the drive gears. In a few  

 > cases the hard case was worn from two areas of the teeth resulting  

 > in failure.

 >

 > 1 last point - do you have the cast cam shaft or the machined cam  

 > shaft - on earlier engines the cast camshaft was found to be weaker  

 > and it was replaced with a fully machined component. When I was  

 > considering updating my engine S/No 340 he told me that i should  

 > upgrade to the machined cam shaft! - maybe something to consider.

 >

 > By the time I looked at the cost of upgrading my engine it made  

 > more sense to go for a new (0) time replacement. Not that I had any  

 > problems with mine.

 >

 > Like most experimental engines (including Rotax)  these engines  

 > continue to evolve - I think this is why the more traditional Aero  

 > engines still look the same and basically operate the same as they  

 > did 40 yrs ago.

 >

 > No change = no risk = no liability

 >

 > Regards

 >

 > Gary

 >

 >

 >

 > Gary Algate

 > Classic4 jab2200

 > Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655

 >

 >

 > This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the  

 > addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of  

 > this message by persons or entities other than the intended  

 > recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error,  

 > kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the  

 > message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for  

 > any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may  

 > arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 > Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>

 > Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com

 > 12/08/2008 12:01 AM

 > Please respond to

 > kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 >

 > To

 > kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 > cc

 > Subject

 > Re: Timing gear

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>

 >

 > Yeah that was a real interesting period in the Jabiru history. There

 > was a lot of back and forth among the Yahoo Jabiru Engine group,

 > involving a spirited debate among several people, one of whom was

 > quite "vocal", and it turns out he didn't even own an engine. It all

 > revolved around how much to torque the bolts...how much it took

 > before they stretched, how much 620 Loctite to put on the threads,

 > where to put it, etc....and finally it died down and went away. I

 > followed the Service Bulletin as did Michel in Norway, he even going

 > so far as to post his pictures in his site, I believe. He can

 > probably fill us in better on his involvement...Michel?

 >

 > Bottom line for me was that I had the larger bolts and the dowels

 > already in place, and only had to change the bolts, Loctite, and re-

 > torque to comply with the SB. That was in Dec. of 2006, back when I

 > had about...guessing....175 hours on the engine.

 >

 > Lynn Matteson

 > Kitfox IV Speedster

 > Jabiru 2200

 > Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try."  (Pink

 > Floyd..."Learning to Fly")

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 > On Aug 11, 2008, at 2:27 AM, gary.algate(at)sandvik.com wrote:

 >

 > >

 > > Interesting comments here re fretting of crank and timing gear for

 > > engines with the smaller flywheel bolts and no dowels. Sounds as

 > > though even the new recommended torque settings might be  

 > understated?

 > >

 > > Regards

 > >

 > > Gary

 > >

 > > http://contrails.free.fr/engine_jab_bolts.php

 > >

 > > Gary Algate

 > > SMC, Exploration

 > > Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655

 > >

 > >

 > > This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the

 > > addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of

 > > this message by persons or entities other than the intended

 > > recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error,

 > > kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the

 > > message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for

 > > any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may

 > > arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. _-

 > > www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List _-

 > > www.matronics.com/contribution _-

 > > ============================================================

 >

 >

 > -

 > -

 >          -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 >

 >

 >

 >

 > www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List _- 

 > www.matronics.com/contribution _- 

 > ============================================================

 

 

 -

 -

          -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 

 

 

  

 [quote][b]

gary.algate(at)sandvik.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 3:31 pm Post subject: Timing gear

Lynn - interesting what you said about Model airplanes - that's how I got started in this hobby. Like you I also went from 2 stroke to 4 stroke engines the last few planes I built were 1/3 scale and I has a Seidel 9 cylinder / Seidel 7 Cylinder a Pegasus 4 cylinder and a couple of 120's. That little lot would more than pay for a brand new Jab 2200 or a 912! 



 Sweet sound though and bloody reliable

  

Gary

 Gary Algate

 Classic 4 Jab2200

 Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655

 

 

 This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. 

 

 

 

    

 

 

 

Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net> 

Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com 

13/08/2008 06:47 AM 

Please respond to

 kitfox-list(at)matronics.com     To

 kitfox-list(at)matronics.com   cc

    Subject

 Re: RE: Timing gear 

     

 

 

 

--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>

 

 2-stroke? I'll pass, Pat...thanks. My ears like the semi-low steady  

 drone of a 4-stroke at low rpm, sucking minimal fuel. Climb is not  

 that important to me, as I like to get away from the pattern and go  

 places. And when this airplane bug crawled up my backside, it carried  

 a sign saying "Do something different...don't follow the crowd", so  

 I'm stickin' to that anthem, for better or worse....besides, don't  

 the mighty 582's also fail from time to time? Even when I was flying  

 model airplanes, I went for a 4-stroke as soon as I could find  

 one...I like the sound, for whatever that's worth...and it's worth a  

 lot to me. Just for what it's worth, I never got on the Chevvie V8  

 bandwagon either, choosing to beat them with my Oldsmobile, and later  

 Chrysler Hemi engines (yeah I know, I climbed on THAT bandwagon) : )

 

 Lynn Matteson

 Kitfox IV Speedster

 Jabiru 2200

 Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try."  (Pink  

 Floyd..."Learning to Fly")

 do not archive

 

 

 

 

 On Aug 12, 2008, at 4:36 PM, patrick reilly wrote:

 

 > Lynn, Just get a 582 with less moving parts to worry about that out  

 > climbs that 912 with 15 less HP and costs 1/2 as much.

 >    Do not archive

 > Pat Reilly

 > Mod 3 582 Rebuild

 > Rockford, IL

 >

 > > Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 20:11:42 +0200

 > > From: michel(at)online.no

 > > To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 > > Subject: RE: Timing gear

 > >

 > > > From: Lynn Matteson [lynnmatt(at)jps.net]

 > > > I gotta say that Jabiru can point to every drop of flys**t that  

 > lands

 > > > on the engine and claim that that's what caused the problem!

 > >

 > > Lynn, they can't do anything else but that. If they admit that  

 > the engine has a weak point, they risk a liability suit from each  

 > and every owner and it would mean bankrupcy and closing of the  

 > plant. On the other hand, when they know that there is a weakness  

 > with the engine, they have to publish a service bulletin but trying  

 > to make you think that it is not their fault. That's the way  

 > business works.

 > > If the tobacco industry had to admit that their product has  

 > killed thousand of people, they may as well close the factories  

 > before going to trial. They know that, the judges know that and  

 > that's why no one is winning a case against the tobacco industry.

 > >

 > > This being said, I understand very well how you feel and how you  

 > wish Jabiru should fix your problem. But look at the bright side;  

 > if it will cost you some money, you are still a good mechanic and  

 > you will put back your engine together in no time. If the same had  

 > happened to me ... I would have to ask you to come to Norway in  

 > order to fix my engine because I don't know anything about it. Of  

 > course, it would be wonderful to meet you but ... it would be a  

 > long way for me to go before I am back in the air ... if I ever will.

 > >

 > > Cheers,

 > > Michel

 > >

 > >

 > > <pre><b><font size  color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">

 > >ist">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List</a>

 > &ntribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution</a>

 > >============

 > >

 > > </b></font></pre>

 >

 > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List_- 

 > ============================================================ _- 

 > forums.matronics.com_- 

 > ============================================================ _- 

 > contribution_- 

 > ============================================================

 

 

 -

 -

          -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 

 

 

  

 [quote][b]

patreilly43(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 3:53 pm Post subject: Timing gear

Lynn C Yeah C I like the 4 stroke sound too. I still prefer two stroke dirt bikes though. I don't think I mentioned it C but I bought a Wittman tailwind W10 4 or 5 months ago with a Lyc 0-290. It needs a little tlc but after I get the Kitfox up I will get the W10 going for extended trips and the fox will be outfitted as a bush plane.

  

 Do not archive

  

 Pat Reilly

 Mod 3 582 Rebuild

 Rockford C IL



 	  Quote: 	
		   From: lynnmatt(at)jps.net

 Subject: Re: RE: Timing gear

 Date: Tue C 12 Aug 2008 17:07:29 -0400

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>

 

 2-stroke? I'll pass C Pat...thanks. My ears like the semi-low steady 

 drone of a 4-stroke at low rpm C sucking minimal fuel. Climb is not 

 that important to me C as I like to get away from the pattern and go 

 places. And when this airplane bug crawled up my backside C it carried 

 a sign saying "Do something different...don't follow the crowd" C so 

 I'm stickin' to that anthem C for better or worse....besides C don't 

 the mighty 582's also fail from time to time? Even when I was flying 

 model airplanes C I went for a 4-stroke as soon as I could find 

 one...I like the sound C for whatever that's worth...and it's worth a 

 lot to me. Just for what it's worth C I never got on the Chevvie V8 

 bandwagon either C choosing to beat them with my Oldsmobile C and later 

 Chrysler Hemi engines (yeah I know C I climbed on THAT bandwagon) : )

 

 Lynn Matteson

 Kitfox IV Speedster

 Jabiru 2200

 Status: "Condition grounded C but determined to try." (Pink 

 Floyd..."Learning to Fly")

 do not archive

 

 

 

 

 On Aug 12 C 2008 C at 4:36 PM C patrick reilly wrote:

 

 > Lynn C Just get a 582 with less moving parts to worry about that out 

 > climbs that 912 with 15 less HP and costs 1/2 as much.

 > Do not archive

 > Pat Reilly

 > Mod 3 582 Rebuild

 > Rockford C IL

 >

 > > Date: Tue C 12 Aug 2008 20:11:42 +0200

 > > From: michel(at)online.no

 > > To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 > > Subject: RE: Timing gear

 > >

 > > > From: Lynn Matteson [lynnmatt(at)jps.net]

 > > > I gotta say that Jabiru can point to every drop of flys**t that 

 > lands

 > > > on the engine and claim that that's what caused the problem!

 > >

 > > Lynn C they can't do anything else but that. If they admit that 

 > the engine has a weak point C they risk a liability suit from each 

 > and every owner and it would mean bankrupcy and closing of the 

 > plant. On the other hand C when they know that there is a weakness 

 > with the engine C they have to publish a service bulletin but trying 

 > to make you think that it is not their fault. That's the way 

 > business works.

 > > If the tobacco industry had to admit that their product has 

 > killed thousand of people C they may as well close the factories 

 > before going to trial. They know that C the judges know that and 

 > that's why no one is winning a case against the tobacco industry.

 > >

 > > This being said C I understand very well how you feel and how you 

 > wish Jabiru should fix your problem. But look at the bright side; 

 > if it will cost you some money C you are still a good mechanic and 

 > you will put back your engine together in no time. If the same had 

 > happened to me ... I would have to ask you to come to Norway in 

 > order to fix my engine because I don't know anything about it. Of 

 > course C it would be wonderful to meet you but .. it would be a 

 > long way for me to go before I am back in the air ... if I ever will.

 > >

 > > Cheers C

 > > Michel

 > >

 > >

 > > <pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new Ccourier">

 > >ist">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List</a>

 > &ntribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution</a>

 > >============

 > >

 > > </b></font></pre>

 >

 > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List_- 

 > ========== _- 

 > forums.matronics.com_- 

 > =================================== _- 

 > contribution_- 

 > ===================================

 

==============

 

 

 


	


  [quote][b]

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 3:34 am Post subject: Timing gear

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: Lynn Matteson [lynnmatt(at)jps.net] 

 When this is all said and done, I doubt you'll be reading a lot of my  

 posts encouraging folks to buy any particular engine...I love the  

 little s**t, but love can carry you only so far.


	


I understand you perfectly, Lynn. I must say that your engine failure and John Miller's failure - two airmen I respect highly - put a shade on my opinion of the Jabiru. But ... do we hear of those who are happily flying? I need some statistics to make my mind.



Yesterday I did the mistake to read the side effects of the drugs I take now after my heart attack. That can really scare the hell out of an innocent man! There isn't an ailment that is not on the list of possible side effects! Did you know that a side effect of beta-blockers is ... heart attack? What the ****! I take those to avoid a new heart attack and ... they can provoke it!



Sometimes in life it is better to stop reading!



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 ... grounded

Do not archive

<pre><b><font size  color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 5:07 am Post subject: Timing gear

Man, you WERE into the big buck engines!  I had a few of the O.S.  

4's....a 70, a 52, a 91, but my favorite engine is the YS 120 AC,  

that is in my P-40.

Before I got the Kitfox bug, I was working on a Stinson Reliant, and  

debated putting the O.S. 4-cylinder engine in it...then I got  

sidetracked by the Kifox....



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster

Jabiru 2200

Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try."  (Pink  

Floyd..."Learning to Fly")

do not archive





On Aug 12, 2008, at 7:31 PM, gary.algate(at)sandvik.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Lynn - interesting what you said about Model airplanes - that's how  

 I got started in this hobby. Like you I also went from 2 stroke to  

 4 stroke engines the last few planes I built were 1/3 scale and I  

 has a Seidel 9 cylinder / Seidel 7 Cylinder a Pegasus 4 cylinder  

 and a couple of 120's. That little lot would more than pay for a  

 brand new Jab 2200 or a 912!



 Sweet sound though and bloody reliable



 Gary

 Gary Algate

 Classic 4 Jab2200

 Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655

 This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the  

 addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of  

 this message by persons or entities other than the intended  

 recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error,  

 kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the  

 message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for  

 any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may  

 arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.



 Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>

 Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com

 13/08/2008 06:47 AM

 Please respond to

 kitfox-list(at)matronics.com



 To

 kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 cc

 Subject

 Re: RE: Timing gear



 



 2-stroke? I'll pass, Pat...thanks. My ears like the semi-low steady

 drone of a 4-stroke at low rpm, sucking minimal fuel. Climb is not

 that important to me, as I like to get away from the pattern and go

 places. And when this airplane bug crawled up my backside, it carried

 a sign saying "Do something different...don't follow the crowd", so

 I'm stickin' to that anthem, for better or worse....besides, don't

 the mighty 582's also fail from time to time? Even when I was flying

 model airplanes, I went for a 4-stroke as soon as I could find

 one...I like the sound, for whatever that's worth...and it's worth a

 lot to me. Just for what it's worth, I never got on the Chevvie V8

 bandwagon either, choosing to beat them with my Oldsmobile, and later

 Chrysler Hemi engines (yeah I know, I climbed on THAT bandwagon) : )



 Lynn Matteson

 Kitfox IV Speedster

 Jabiru 2200

 Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try."  (Pink

 Floyd..."Learning to Fly")

 do not archive





 On Aug 12, 2008, at 4:36 PM, patrick reilly wrote:



 > Lynn, Just get a 582 with less moving parts to worry about that out

 > climbs that 912 with 15 less HP and costs 1/2 as much.

 >    Do not archive

 > Pat Reilly

 > Mod 3 582 Rebuild

 > Rockford, IL

 >

 > > Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 20:11:42 +0200

 > > From: michel(at)online.no

 > > To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 > > Subject: RE: Timing gear

 > >

 > > > From: Lynn Matteson [lynnmatt(at)jps.net]

 > > > I gotta say that Jabiru can point to every drop of flys**t that

 > lands

 > > > on the engine and claim that that's what caused the problem!

 > >

 > > Lynn, they can't do anything else but that. If they admit that

 > the engine has a weak point, they risk a liability suit from each

 > and every owner and it would mean bankrupcy and closing of the

 > plant. On the other hand, when they know that there is a weakness

 > with the engine, they have to publish a service bulletin but trying

 > to make you think that it is not their fault. That's the way

 > business works.

 > > If the tobacco industry had to admit that their product has

 > killed thousand of people, they may as well close the factories

 > before going to trial. They know that, the judges know that and

 > that's why no one is winning a case against the tobacco industry.

 > >

 > > This being said, I understand very well how you feel and how you

 > wish Jabiru should fix your problem. But look at the bright side;

 > if it will cost you some money, you are still a good mechanic and

 > you will put back your engine together in no time. If the same had

 > happened to me ... I would have to ask you to come to Norway in

 > order to fix my engine because I don't know anything about it. Of

 > course, it would be wonderful to meet you but ... it would be a

 > long way for me to go before I am back in the air ... if I ever  

 will.

 > >

 > > Cheers,

 > > Michel

 > >

 > >

 > > <pre><b><font size  color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">

 > >ist">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List</a>

 > &ntribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution</a>

 > >============

 > >

 > > </b></font></pre>

 >

 > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List_-

 > ============================================================ _-

 > forums.matronics.com_-

 > ============================================================ _-

 > contribution_-

 > ============================================================

 -

 -

          -Matt Dralle, List Admin.





 www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List _- 

 www.matronics.com/contribution _- 

 ============================================================

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 5:13 am Post subject: Timing gear

I'm thinking that the 2-stroke bike makes a good dirt bike, but I'd  

want a 4-stroke for the long hauls...similar to how I feel about the  

airplane engines. I know I'll get arguments against that thinking,  

but that's me.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster

Jabiru 2200

Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try."  (Pink  

Floyd..."Learning to Fly")

do not archive





On Aug 12, 2008, at 7:53 PM, patrick reilly wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Lynn, Yeah, I like the 4 stroke sound too. I still prefer two  

 stroke dirt bikes though. I don't think I mentioned it, but I  

 bought a Wittman tailwind W10 4 or 5 months ago with a Lyc 0-290.  

 It needs a little tlc but after I get the Kitfox up I will get the  

 W10 going for extended trips and the fox will be outfitted as a  

 bush plane.



 Do not archive



 Pat Reilly

 Mod 3 582 Rebuild

 Rockford, IL



 > From: lynnmatt(at)jps.net

 > Subject: Re: RE: Timing gear

 > Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 17:07:29 -0400

 > To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 >

 > 

 >

 > 2-stroke? I'll pass, Pat...thanks. My ears like the semi-low steady

 > drone of a 4-stroke at low rpm, sucking minimal fuel. Climb is not

 > that important to me, as I like to get away from the pattern and go

 > places. And when this airplane bug crawled up my backside, it  

 carried

 > a sign saying "Do something different...don't follow the crowd", so

 > I'm stickin' to that anthem, for better or worse....besides, don't

 > the mighty 582's also fail from time to time? Even when I was flying

 > model airplanes, I went for a 4-stroke as soon as I could find

 > one...I like the sound, for whatever that's worth...and it's worth a

 > lot to me. Just for what it's worth, I never got on the Chevvie V8

 > bandwagon either, choosing to beat them with my Oldsmobile, and  

 later

 > Chrysler Hemi engines (yeah I know, I climbed on THAT bandwagon) : )

 >

 > Lynn Matteson

 > Kitfox IV Speedster

 > Jabiru 2200

 > Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try." (Pink

 > Floyd..."Learning to Fly")

 > do not archive

 >

 >

 >

 >

 > On Aug 12, 2008, at 4:36 PM, patrick reilly wrote:

 >

 > > Lynn, Just get a 582 with less moving parts to worry about that  

 out

 > > climbs that 912 with 15 less HP and costs 1/2 as much.

 > > Do not archive

 > > Pat Reilly

 > > Mod 3 582 Rebuild

 > > Rockford, IL

 > >

 > > > Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 20:11:42 +0200

 > > > From: michel(at)online.no

 > > > To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 > > > Subject: RE: Timing gear

 > > >

 > > > > From: Lynn Matteson [lynnmatt(at)jps.net]

 > > > > I gotta say that Jabiru can point to every drop of flys**t  

 that

 > > lands

 > > > > on the engine and claim that that's what caused the problem!

 > > >

 > > > Lynn, they can't do anything else but that. If they admit that

 > > the engine has a weak point, they risk a liability suit from each

 > > and every owner and it would mean bankrupcy and closing of the

 > > plant. On the other hand, when they know that there is a weakness

 > > with the engine, they have to publish a service bulletin but  

 trying

 > > to make you think that it is not their fault. That's the way

 > > business works.

 > > > If the tobacco industry had to admit that their product has

 > > killed thousand of people, they may as well close the factories

 > > before going to trial. They know that, the judges know that and

 > > that's why no one is winning a case against the tobacco industry.

 > > >

 > > > This being said, I understand very well how you feel and how you

 > > wish Jabiru should fix your problem. But look at the bright side;

 > > if it will cost you some money, you are still a good mechanic and

 > > you will put back your engine together in no time. If the same had

 > > happened to me ... I would have to ask you to come to Norway in

 > > order to fix my engine because I don't know anything about it. Of

 > > course, it would be wonderful to meet you but ... it would be a

 > > long way for me to go before I am back in the air ... if I ever  

 will.

 > > >

 > > > Cheers,

 > > > Michel

 > > >

 > > >

 > > > <pre><b><font size  color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">

 > > >ist">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List</a>

 > > &ntribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution</a>

 > > >============

 > > >

 > > > </b></font></pre>

 > >

 > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List_-

 > > ========== _-

 > > forums.matronics.com_-

 > > =================================== _-

 > > contribution_-

 > > ===================================

 >

 >==============

 >

 >

 >



 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List_- 

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 forums.matronics.com_- 

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_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 5:39 am Post subject: Timing gear

They say that the only people on the groups/lists are the ones having  

problems, the others are out flying. I seem to have a lemon of an  

engine. First a distributor shaft seal wore a groove into one of the  

shafts, causing an oil leak that saturated one of the caps, then the  

rocker arm bushings went to hell, now the timing gear breaks, causing  

me major engine work.

In every case, I got the "rare and unusual" answer back from Jabiru.  

So now I just rebuild and fly and hope others don't have the same  

problems.

My ownership of this engine got off on the wrong foot when one engine  

out of a shipment of 7 was impaled on a fork lift. That engine was  

sent back to Aussieland for repair, and I was sent a different  

engine, so maybe that started the whole "jinx" thing. : )

John's engine suffered bad valve guides, and he had them replaced,  

but they used the old valves, then a valve head broke off, so I'm  

going to have my guides replaced and go with new valves.

Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster

Jabiru 2200

Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try."  (Pink  

Floyd..."Learning to Fly")

do not archive

On Aug 13, 2008, at 7:34 AM, Michel Verheughe wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  > From: Lynn Matteson [lynnmatt(at)jps.net]

> When this is all said and done, I doubt you'll be reading a lot of my

> posts encouraging folks to buy any particular engine...I love the

> little s**t, but love can carry you only so far.

 I understand you perfectly, Lynn. I must say that your engine  

 failure and John Miller's failure - two airmen I respect highly -  

 put a shade on my opinion of the Jabiru. But ... do we hear of  

 those who are happily flying? I need some statistics to make my mind.

 Yesterday I did the mistake to read the side effects of the drugs I  

 take now after my heart attack. That can really scare the hell out  

 of an innocent man! There isn't an ailment that is not on the list  

 of possible side effects! Did you know that a side effect of beta- 

 blockers is ... heart attack? What the ****! I take those to avoid  

 a new heart attack and ... they can provoke it!

 Sometimes in life it is better to stop reading!

 Cheers,

 Michel Verheughe

 Norway

 Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 ... grounded

 Do not archive

 <pre><b><font size  color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">

 List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List</a>

 forums.matronics.com</a>

 www.matronics.com/contribution</a>

 </b></font></pre>

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 6:08 am Post subject: Re: Timing gear

Pat,  Not true  on equivalent weight  Kitfoxes.   582 wil last  300 to 500  hours pretty easy though and yes alot less moving parts. 912 will out climb a 582 if it is light weight and cruise will be able to go faster

Climb performance suffers most from heavy Kitfoxes.   This is why  the new Kitfox  Supersport is more of a cruiser than a STOL  Kitfox.   I think the model IV was the best Kitfox ever built so far as long as they do not wiigh  700 lbs ++ .  But no noemaking now that is advertizing them   <snicker>  

For example my  IV with a 582  on Amphib flaots will leave grass solo in about 400 feet and that wights about 700 lbs empty and still climb 700 fpm +  on a 80 to 100F day .



 	  Quote: 	
		  Lynn C Just get a 582 with less moving parts to worry about that out climbs that 912 with 15 less HP and costs 1/2 as much. 

?? Do not archive 

Pat Reilly 

Mod 3 582 Rebuild 

Rockford C IL

_________________
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Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 10:35 pm Post subject: Timing gear

Lynn, I am not sure the general Kitfox audience is interested in this but ... here I go:



 	  Quote: 	
		   From: Lynn Matteson [lynnmatt(at)jps.net] 

 First a distributor shaft seal wore a groove into one of the  

 shafts, causing an oil leak that saturated one of the caps, then the  

 rocker arm bushings went to hell, now the timing gear breaks, causing  

 me major engine work.


	


I have a slight leak on my starboard distributor shaft seal. I got a new seal but ... since I recently epoxy a new rotor in place, I don't feel in a hurry to remove it in order to change the seal. But I am not sure I understand how it can wear a groove on the shaft; it is a plastic seal, right?



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 ... grounded.

<pre><b><font size  color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 3:14 am Post subject: Re: Timing gear

Michel,  Always interested in all aspects of Kitfoxes. 

Any seal can wear a steel shaft from continual use. If you are showing signs of seepage now it will only get worse. Shafts can wear from contaminants in the oil as well as dirt,dust from  the area of the seal. Crankcase pressure could force oil out as well.  

Dave



 	  Quote: 	
		  I have a slight leak on my starboard distributor shaft seal. I got a new seal but ... since I recently epoxy a new rotor in place, I don't feel in a hurry to remove it in order to change the seal. But I am not sure I understand how it can wear a groove on the shaft; it is a plastic seal, right?

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 5:39 am Post subject: Timing gear

It is a flexible seal, made of...I dunno, neoprene or something like  

that, and it definitely wore a groove in my shaft. Pictured is the  

shaft, with the 2 grooves worn in by the seal, which  you can see in  

the distributor bottom plate...this is the part that the cap attaches  

to. To change the seal, you need to remove the two socket-head cap  

screws (also known as Allen bolts over here, after a company that  

made them), then remove this plate and drive out the old seal and  

press/drive in the new seal, and you're done...well, except for  

putting it back together.

But...if you have a worn/grooved shaft like I did, I had to use a  

product called Speedi-Sleeve (pictured), which is slid over the  

shaft, becoming the new surface upon which the new seal rides. The  

sleeve is only .011" thick, so it only increases the diameter of the  

shaft by .022" or about half of a mm. This increase in diameter not  

only provides a new seal surface, but it increases the tension of the  

new seal so it seals better. Mine worked right up to when I took them  

off when I dismantled my engine, and I'm thinking of putting them  

back on. Now as to why these seals leak, and I'm afraid yours are  

going to show worn shafts too, Michel, I'm thinking they don't have a  

hard enough shaft to begin with. When/if you pull your bottom plate 

(s), don't be alarmed about the sloppiness of the distributor shaft  

if you pull the distributor shaft support tower (I call it that)...it  

won't get out of time, because the gears will still be in mesh, just  

loose until the tower/support goes back on. You can't screw anything  

up by taking this area apart and changing the seals, or by installing  

the speedi-sleeves. You cannot get the engine out of time. But if you  

decide to change the distributor shafts themselves, you will have to  

remove the gear case cover, and THAT'S where you can get into trouble  

with ignition timing. I can get you through this if you get that far  

into it, or so can your Jab dealer friend over there.

It's surprising to me how the soft seal can wear a groove into the  

shaft, but here's living proof that it did. My left (port) one is  

pictured. The right side leaked worse, but the shaft was unharmed by  

the seal...go figure that one out!

Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster

Jabiru 2200

Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try."  (Pink  

Floyd..."Learning to Fly")

On Aug 14, 2008, at 2:34 AM, Michel Verheughe wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Lynn, I am not sure the general Kitfox audience is interested in  

 this but ... here I go:

> From: Lynn Matteson [lynnmatt(at)jps.net]

> First a distributor shaft seal wore a groove into one of the

> shafts, causing an oil leak that saturated one of the caps, then the

> rocker arm bushings went to hell, now the timing gear breaks, causing

> me major engine work.

 I have a slight leak on my starboard distributor shaft seal. I got  

 a new seal but ... since I recently epoxy a new rotor in place, I  

 don't feel in a hurry to remove it in order to change the seal. But  

 I am not sure I understand how it can wear a groove on the shaft;  

 it is a plastic seal, right?

 Cheers,

 Michel Verheughe

 Norway

 Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 ... grounded.

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_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

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