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High temperature fiberglass

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paul.the.aviator(at)gmail
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 6:09 pm Post subject: High temperature fiberglass

Hi all,



I was looking at a Rotax installation in a Diamond Kintana the other

day and I noticed that they have manufactured a fiberglass plenum air

duct to drive the airflow over the cylinder heads and downwards.



Anyhow, I am curious about what type of fiberglass cloth and resin

system they use that could withstand the temperatures under the

cowling.  Does anyone have any idea ?



Thanks,  Paul

kheindl(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 7:04 pm Post subject: High temperature fiberglass

Paul,

  

 I wouldn't know the answers to those questions. Most 912S's have that shroud. I once checked the temperature under the shroud and found it only to be about 45C above oat. I was hoping to tap into that for cabin heat, but it wasn't hot enough, at least not near the front of the engine. Of course the under cowling temperatures rise dramatically after engine shutdown.



 Karl

  

 

<html><div></div></html>



 	  Quote: 	
		   Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2008 20:05:11 -0600

 From: paul.the.aviator(at)gmail.com

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: High temperature fiberglass

 

 --> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" <paul.the.aviator(at)gmail.com>

 

 Hi all,

 

 I was looking at a Rotax installation in a Diamond Kintana the other

 day and I noticed that they have manufactured a fiberglass plenum air

 duct to drive the airflow over the cylinder heads and downwards.

 

 Anyhow, I am curious about what type of fiberglass cloth and resin

 system they use that could withstand the temperatures under the

 cowling. Does anyone have any idea ?

 

&gt======================
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   ========================> 

 

 


	


  [quote][b]

craigb(at)onthenet.com.au
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 11:39 pm Post subject: High temperature fiberglass

There are many high temp epoxy systems available which will

handle temps up to 450f, the use of carbon fibre cloth will help as well

but glass cloth should be more than adequate. I saw ONCE (do you think i can find it again) that there was an epoxy capable of being used to fabricate exhaust headers if used with carbon fibre cloth. Imagine the

weight saving.   



If it is just ground temps after shut down you are concerned about, maybe

you could put a small 12v brush-less DC fan to move some air after shut down, they are small light and draw about half an amp. Only issue would be the mounting so it worked ok when stopped but didn't get destroyed in flight



Craig

Visit -  www.EuropaOwners.org

ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 11:46 pm Post subject: High temperature fiberglass

Hi! Paul

No specific temperatures but due to a minor conflict with the vac pump I

used I had to apply heat to the plenum/hood and it responds to

temperature and allows a deformation so IMHO it is still standard resin

and fiberglass.

I am catching air aft of oil cooler and radiator with adequate heat (not

as hot as I used to get from the Jabiru oil Cooler but comfortable.

Regards

Bob Harrison.G-PTAG (914 with option of the hood by Rotax 



--

pete(at)lawless.info
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 12:23 am Post subject: High temperature fiberglass

Karl do you mean 4.5 degrees C above OAT?  

   

--

Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 12:46 am Post subject: High temperature fiberglass

Robert C Harrison a écrit :

 	  Quote: 	
		   I had to apply heat to the plenum/hood and it responds to

 temperature and allows a deformation so IMHO it is still standard resin

 and fiberglass.

 I am catching air aft of oil cooler and radiator with adequate heat (not

 as hot as I used to get from the Jabiru oil Cooler but comfortable.

   


	


Bob and all,



This airshroud is not transparent, its opaque appearance reminds me of 

the so-called "High temp" resin we used for some parts in the engine 

compartment. Those part needed some heat treatment in an oven after cure 

in order to avoid brittleness.



I too devised a cabin heat pickup in the rear of the radiator tunnel. 

The radiators are in tandem, so we get plenty of heat, especially when 

OAT is cold and the tunnel flap is closed.



Best regards,

-- 

Gilles

http://contrails.free.fr

ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserv
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 2:35 am Post subject: High temperature fiberglass

Aside from the exhausts, the hottest external part of a  912 is the cylinders (walls, not head), which are allowed a maximum temp of  190C.

  

 There are a number of high temp epoxies available. Cheap  and widely obtainable is the Borden Chemical range, which has a Tg of 150C  (following post cure).

  

 I suspect that the epoxy in the Rotax hood is loaded  with fire retardant (probably Antimony Trioxide), hence its opaque white colour.  I've not otherwise found a high temp resin that is fire retardant, or a fire  retardant epoxy (there are lots in use for marine applications, to keep the  insurance companies happy) that has other than a low Tg. Still doesn't explain  the extraordinary high cost of the Rotax cylinder hood.

  

 Duncan McF.

 

 	  Quote: 	
		   Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2008 20:05:11 -0600

 From:  paul.the.aviator(at)gmail.com

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

  Subject: High temperature fiberglass

 

 -->  Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister"  <paul.the.aviator(at)gmail.com>

 

 Hi all,

 

 I  was looking at a Rotax installation in a Diamond Kintana the other

 day  and I noticed that they have manufactured a fiberglass plenum air

 duct  to drive the airflow over the cylinder heads and downwards.

 

  Anyhow, I am curious about what type of fiberglass cloth and resin

  system they use that could withstand the temperatures under the

 cowling.  Does anyone have any idea ?

 

======================

  ========================> 

 

 


	




 [quote] 	  Quote: 	
		  



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c

	
[b]

kheindl(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:37 am Post subject: High temperature fiberglass

No, forty-five.



<html><div></div></html>

 [quote]  From: pete(at)lawless.info

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Europa-List: High temperature fiberglass

Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2008 08:18:34 +0000



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Karl do you mean 4.5 degrees C above OAT? 

  

--

kheindl(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:43 am Post subject: High temperature fiberglass

I recall seeing a note by Bob Berube, saying that he throws away these shrouds, claiming that they are useless. I am not sure

I agree, so long as the air is directed into it, as with the Europa FWF kit

hdwysong(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 9:59 am Post subject: High temperature fiberglass

 	  Quote: 	
		    Anyhow, I am curious about what type of fiberglass cloth and resin

  system they use that could withstand the temperatures under the

  cowling.  Does anyone have any idea ?


	


Hello Paul,



Standard E-glass BID and EZ Poxy have been successfully used to build

cooling plenums for pushers/canards (Long EZ, Varieze, etc.).  Google

"downdraft cooling eze" for some details.  You'll need to post cure

the plenums in order to elevate the temps at which the resin goes

"soft", so any resin system that benefits from a post cure should

suffice.



Folks have also impregnated 2 or 3 plies of BID cloth directly with

RTV to make their plenums.  Sounds strange and messy, but it works.

Put down a piece of plastic drop cloth, add 1 ply of BID (cut to

shape), squirt on some RTV, add another piece of drop cloth, and use a

rolling pin to squish the RTV through the BID.  Build it up to 3 plies

and, before it cures, pull off one side of drop cloth and stick the

exposed RTV directly onto your cylinder fins and mold the 3-ply sheet

to shape.



D

jeff(at)rmmm.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 1:41 pm Post subject: High temperature fiberglass

Hello All,

I too have been contemplating making these plenums as I'm still 

struggling with keeping the back cylinder temps down. Today with some 

engine static test I had the back # 3 cylinder temp at 260 to 265 F. 

Not a problem at the current 60 F outside but I know the hot Florida 

temps at Sun-N-Fun could again push the limit for me. Last year during 

climb out there, and during our Tennessee heat wave they were a 

problem. Lower climbs we're necessary. After many attempts trying every 

suggestion talked about on this forum and elsewhere. My back CHT's are 

still too high and when it's cold they are too un even from the fronts 

as well.

My friend Steve Wright of the Stagger EZ fame told me that a plenum 

would be the only way to get the heads running at an even and at cooler 

temperatures. He made his with the RTV mentioned below. Unless I have 

any other suggestions it looks like the plenum may be the way to go. 

Can these be bought or is there anyone out there that has discarded 

there's. If not I'll be making some as well.

Your thought are very welcome here.

Regards,

Jeff R.

A258 - N128LJ / Gold Rush 105 hours and climbing slowly.

On Mar 9, 2008, at 11:56 AM, D Wysong wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

>  Anyhow, I am curious about what type of fiberglass cloth and resin

>  system they use that could withstand the temperatures under the

>  cowling.  Does anyone have any idea ?

 Hello Paul,

 Standard E-glass BID and EZ Poxy have been successfully used to build

 cooling plenums for pushers/canards (Long EZ, Varieze, etc.).  Google

 "downdraft cooling eze" for some details.  You'll need to post cure

 the plenums in order to elevate the temps at which the resin goes

 "soft", so any resin system that benefits from a post cure should

 suffice.

 Folks have also impregnated 2 or 3 plies of BID cloth directly with

 RTV to make their plenums.  Sounds strange and messy, but it works.

 Put down a piece of plastic drop cloth, add 1 ply of BID (cut to

 shape), squirt on some RTV, add another piece of drop cloth, and use a

 rolling pin to squish the RTV through the BID.  Build it up to 3 plies

 and, before it cures, pull off one side of drop cloth and stick the

 exposed RTV directly onto your cylinder fins and mold the 3-ply sheet

 to shape.

 D

paul.the.aviator(at)gmail
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 2:09 pm Post subject: High temperature fiberglass

Hi all,



Well I got an overwhelming response to my question about high

temperature resins and cloth, so perhaps I need to come clean as to

what I am thinking about.



As some of you know I purchased a second 914 minus its exhaust and

turbo charger and as a winter time project I have been rebuilding it

with the thought to fuel inject it.



Well I am at the point where I am about to assemble the engine and I

am thinking about how I was going to make an inlet manifold from the

throttle body.  My initial thought was to fabricate one out of

aluminum like the one in the attached photograph.I then got to

thinking that perhaps I can make something that has a nicer airflow

out of blue foam and fiberglass.



As far as the project goes,  it is very much a spare time project with

no particular time line. It is truly experimentation and my never

actually get fitted to my aircraft.



So, essentially I am looking for a recommendation of an epoxy resin

that will be okay with the temperatures seen under the cowl.



Cheers,  Paul

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ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 2:25 pm Post subject: High temperature fiberglass

Hi! Jeff/all

These items are called "Barrel hoods" and are available as a Rotax

Option in the region of GBP £200.!

No doubt the plug around which to make these was a very demanding

process and requires a tight dimensional tolerance.

However with the benefit of one it would be easy to make a "splash" and

copy it.

Regards

Bob Harrison. G-PTAG 



--

ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserv
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 3:47 pm Post subject: High temperature fiberglass

Can't think who would do such a dastardly thing, robbing Rotax of income!

D.

---

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