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Blue Mountain EFIS
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Sully



Joined: 08 Jan 2008
Posts: 9
Location: Euless, TX

PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 8:19 pm    Post subject: Blue Mountain EFIS Reply with quote

I wanted to find out if anyone has recent experience with performance and support from Blue Mountain. I have an opportunity to buy a EFIS/One from someone who hasn't been satisfied, but most of the negative posts I've seen, seem to be several months old. Any current info will appreciated.
Sully


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n395v



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 450

PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 5:36 am    Post subject: Re: Blue Mountain EFIS Reply with quote

I have 4 BMA Efis's and 2 autopilots in 2 different planes. Have had them for over 4 years and 500 hrs now. My experience with service and support has been good.

Depending on the Generation of EFIS it may or may not be the right one for you. It also depends on what you want it to do.

If you are going to use a Garmin 430 or 530 or an autopilot other than BMA I would not get a BMA EFIS especially if it is a pre gen 4 EFIS and even then I would be hesitant. They work great with an SL 30.

Also the pre gen 4 units will never be upgradable to the features of the generation 4 units so what you get is what you will have. I enjoy flying my Gen 1 EFIS 1 but it just cant compare to my Gen 4 Sport in features and function.

Support right now for the pre gen 4 units is slow but improving.

BMA had a real nightmare of a launch with the Gen 4 products and appears to have gotten most (not all) items resolved and hopefully they are now going back and finishing the un resolved issues with Gen 3.
For me the BMA units did all the things I wanted at the right price and weight. The delivery delays were not an issue for me but for some they caused considerable problems and rightfully made a lot of people really angry. Hopefully this is all in the past.

In any event fully evaluate your needs in an EFIS and what you expect to integrate it with and then look at all the options available. If the BMA unit fits the bill and is at a good price I wouldn't hesitate at buying it.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:24 am    Post subject: Blue Mountain EFIS Reply with quote

PS- On BMA

They won't let customers back onto their board if you leave bad
feedback, that's why you don't see as much negative reporting. I'm not
sure if they do this actively or not but I have sent them three requests
to get on their web board and they don't reply. I gave up so I don't
know what they would say if I pressured them. Besides, I can only deal
with their attitudes for about five minutes a month and I didn't want to
use up all my gum balls.

Here are some of my more recent stories regarding BMA: I ran into a guy
that had two Blue Mountain EFIS One's in his Harmon Rocket. I was
looking at it and I asked why he also had two Dynon's right next to the
EFIS One. His response to me was the EFIS One would fail all the time
and he would simply pull the unites and send them back every oil change
because the most he would every get out of the unit was about 40 hours.
He has over a year and a half on the units and was going to remove them
this winter. This story was from August 2007.

This is a story from my unit: A BMA EFIS Lite G3. For those of you who
read the BMA web boards there is a story about the altimeter freezing up
in flight. The response is that it can't happen from the BMA folks. I
have had that problem twice and was told over the phone that that can't
happen. So I looked into the mirror and said it must be me and the
altimeter is really working and the ground is just not staying in the
correct spot. (on a serious note, I think the problem is a thermal
issue, I think the unit needs forced air to keep it cool so far that
seems to be working. "I fear the day I have to use it in the clouds
fortunately it only backs up a real EFIS and I added a stem gauge!")

This last story is in progress: I have a coworker who is building an
RV8 fastback with a partner. Both are detailed people are doing a high
end build with all the bells and whistles. Attention to detail is a 10
(I'll send photos). One of them is an EE and knows his way around
electronics at the micro level. They purchased a BMA EFIS one and have
not flown yet. Most of the probes had to have trimmers installed so
they would read accurately throughout the range of operations (I told
you they were detailed). Most of the probes went out of cal out of
nominal rest. I will post when we get to first flight.

Mike Larkin

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echristley(at)nc.rr.com
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 8:34 am    Post subject: Blue Mountain EFIS Reply with quote

N395V wrote:
Quote:
BMA had a real nightmare of a launch with the Gen 4 products and appears to have gotten most (not all) items resolved and hopefully they are now going back and finishing the un resolved issues with Gen 3.

This statement right here would eliminate the entire company from any

prospect of doing business with me. Read what is written there. Their
Gen 3 products do not work for the purpose intended. Instead of fixing
that product and making things right for their customers, they're busy
working on the next revision...which they subsequently sell to customers
in a broken state. A flight computer for a GA aircraft lives in a very
constrained environment. Temperature ranges and inertial forces have
well defined limits. There is no excuse for a unit not to be tested to
the extent of those limits. The fact that they would repeatedly push
untested products into a potentially life threatening situation says to
me that the company is less than ethical.


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peter(at)sportingaero.com
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 12:34 pm    Post subject: Blue Mountain EFIS Reply with quote

I work in military avionics (I started out as an aerodynamicist); my
view is that airplane guys who move into electronics produce much better
EFIS and autopilot products than electronics guys who move into
airplanes. Ask about the background of the company who built the product
and make a decision accordingly. I have no direct experience of BMA
products, but their representatives at the various airshows did not talk
enough 'airplane' for me.

Peter

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 5:18 pm    Post subject: Blue Mountain EFIS Reply with quote

Peter,

Your view seems biased to me. You work in military avionics yet ou think that airplane guys who move into electronics produce much better EFISs and autopilots than "electronic guys" who move into airplanes. I'm not sure what you mean by "electronic guys," but I suspect it is workers who produce commercial products. That's like Lenin claiming that communism is better than capitalism.

I also do not have direct experience with BMA products, but I've seen their reps at airshows. They seem to know what they're talking about just like the other guys. If they're having problems, I am willing to bet that they are business related decisions, i.e., shipping too early to meet deadlines, not ordering enough parts on time, technical problems due to hurried schedules, etc. These problems plague any organization that isn't run properly. It has nothing to do with whether someone has military experience or not.

Henador

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sam.marlow



Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Posts: 99

PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 5:32 pm    Post subject: Blue Mountain EFIS Reply with quote

I've been in the aircraft business as long as most people on this list,and I've never head as many complaints about any other vender as Blue Mountain. Why don't you just blow off the advice of this list,and go ahead and buy there product, then tell us were wrong! Smile
Sam

---- Henador Titzoff <henador_titzoff(at)yahoo.com> wrote:

=============


Peter,

Your view seems biased to me. You work in military avionics yet ou think that airplane guys who move into electronics produce much better EFISs and autopilots than "electronic guys" who move into airplanes. I'm not sure what you mean by "electronic guys," but I suspect it is workers who produce commercial products. That's like Lenin claiming that communism is better than capitalism.

I also do not have direct experience with BMA products, but I've seen their reps at airshows. They seem to know what they're talking about just like the other guys. If they're having problems, I am willing to bet that they are business related decisions, i.e., shipping too early to meet deadlines, not ordering enough parts on time, technical problems due to hurried schedules, etc. These problems plague any organization that isn't run properly. It has nothing to do with whether someone has military experience or not.

Henador

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:12 pm    Post subject: Blue Mountain EFIS Reply with quote

Sam, the advice on this list sometimes gets pretty ridiculous, like telling me to buy an EFIS that I don't need. What are you, some kind of control freak?

Henador

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:46 pm    Post subject: Blue Mountain EFIS Reply with quote

Henador,

I don't mean to be rude, but I don't think you have any idea what you
are talking about as it pertains to Blue Mountain Avionics. I have
written four posts today on this subject on two different sites. I have
been nice and danced around the issue figuring that all could read
between the lines. But for you let me be direct, if a boat anchor is
what you need then BMA is for you. If you want to fly in the clouds
then BMA is not for you....

Mike

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 8:02 pm    Post subject: Blue Mountain EFIS Reply with quote

Just to play devil's advocate, I HAVE a BMA, and have been satisfied. I think
that for the price, they offer the most capable and current functionality, but
I think you need to be choiceful with your upgrades because being first can
mean things aren't as solid as many expect. I'd rather have the option of
perfectly stable or leading tech with some possibility of issue - at my
discretion. They are certainly not for everyone.

Brett
www.velocityxl.com

Quoting Mike <mlas(at)cox.net>:

Quote:


Henador,

I don't mean to be rude, but I don't think you have any idea what you
are talking about as it pertains to Blue Mountain Avionics. I have
written four posts today on this subject on two different sites. I have
been nice and danced around the issue figuring that all could read
between the lines. But for you let me be direct, if a boat anchor is
what you need then BMA is for you. If you want to fly in the clouds
then BMA is not for you....

Mike



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rv9aplane(at)gmail.com
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:35 pm    Post subject: Blue Mountain EFIS Reply with quote

Wow! So much information from people who have never owned the product! You know I heard from someone that Elvis is alive...I don't have to listen to anyone else cause it nust be true!

On Jan 14, 2008 7:59 PM, Brett Ferrell <bferrell(at)123mail.net (bferrell(at)123mail.net)> wrote:
[quote]--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brett Ferrell <bferrell(at)123mail.net (bferrell(at)123mail.net)>

Just to play devil's advocate, I HAVE a BMA, and have been satisfied. I think
that for the price, they offer the most capable and current functionality, but
I think you need to be choiceful with your upgrades because being first can
mean things aren't as solid as many expect. I'd rather have the option of
perfectly stable or leading tech with some possibility of issue - at my
discretion. They are certainly not for everyone.

Brett
www.velocityxl.com

Quoting Mike <mlas(at)cox.net (mlas(at)cox.net)>:

Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mike" <mlas(at)cox.net (mlas(at)cox.net)>

Henador,

I don't mean to be rude, but I don't think you have any idea what you
are talking about as it pertains to Blue Mountain Avionics. I have
written four posts today on this subject on two different sites. I have
been nice and danced around the issue figuring that all could read
between the lines. But for you let me be direct, if a boat anchor is
what you need then BMA is for you. If you want to fly in the clouds
then BMA is not for you....

Mike






[quote][b]


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 5:11 am    Post subject: Blue Mountain EFIS Reply with quote

Bruce,

The experiences reported by others are just data bits. It's up to the recipient to determine whether the props or reported dings apply to their situation or not. One is free to discount the comments of all others. The advantage of doing so is the opportunity to relearn the same lessons they have already learned. If I recall correctly, that's why history keeps repeating itself.

Certainly, because someone reports something about a product or person doesn't make it a fact or an opinion, but simply information to consider, digest and factor into one's own actions. That reporting is one of the most valuable aspects of these lists. That reporting is one of the reasons I bought dual GRT EFIS--because of the feature set, reputation of delivering on promised upgrades and excellent customer support; all of which I have found to be accurate.

You are certainly welcome to ignore outside information, but one does so at their own peril and pain.

Chuck

Do Not Archive [quote] --


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 6:45 am    Post subject: Blue Mountain EFIS Reply with quote

I'm missing something here, Bruce. As I said, I HAVE owned (and still do) the
product, you can see pictures of it on my website (listed below), so I'm not
sure how this message is relevant. Or, were you not trying to make a relevant
point??

http://www.velocityxl.com/EFIS_one.JPG

B

Quoting Bruce Peters <rv9aplane(at)gmail.com>:

Quote:
Wow! So much information from people who have never owned the product! You
know I heard from someone that Elvis is alive...I don't have to listen to
anyone else cause it nust be true!

On Jan 14, 2008 7:59 PM, Brett Ferrell <bferrell(at)123mail.net> wrote:

>
> bferrell(at)123mail.net>
>
> Just to play devil's advocate, I HAVE a BMA, and have been satisfied. I
> think
> that for the price, they offer the most capable and current functionality,
> but
> I think you need to be choiceful with your upgrades because being first
> can
> mean things aren't as solid as many expect. I'd rather have the option of
> perfectly stable or leading tech with some possibility of issue - at my
> discretion. They are certainly not for everyone.
>
> Brett
> www.velocityxl.com
>
> Quoting Mike <mlas(at)cox.net>:
>
> >
> >
> > Henador,
> >
> > I don't mean to be rude, but I don't think you have any idea what you
> > are talking about as it pertains to Blue Mountain Avionics. I have
> > written four posts today on this subject on two different sites. I have
> > been nice and danced around the issue figuring that all could read
> > between the lines. But for you let me be direct, if a boat anchor is
> > what you need then BMA is for you. If you want to fly in the clouds
> > then BMA is not for you....
> >
> > Mike
> >
>
>
>
>
>



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 6:47 am    Post subject: Blue Mountain EFIS Reply with quote

Bruce,

I have a BMA EFIS, I’ll sell it to you for half price!

What I think is funny, is that people who don’t have one want to support it, or people who spent all the money they had are stuck with it and are forced to love it. I just want to keep people informed and keep them from make the same mistake others including myself have made. The BMA product looks good on paper. When I started looking at it I saw the problems with the original product and the second generation product. I used some of the same deduction and reasoning that has been exhibited here on this site. I said self, they should have their shit together by the third iteration and the price should be right. The whole time the product litterateur got prettier and prettier. Well it doesn’t work! The screens freeze up, the unit crashes, most of the info coming from the probes on the engine system is not correct, the database they use is not certified(this may have changed recently), and their product support in a word sucks (It’s the worst in the industry). Caveat emptor!

Mike

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 6:48 am    Post subject: Blue Mountain EFIS Reply with quote

Chuck,

Well said!

Mike

Ps- How’s the GRT system treating you?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 7:28 am    Post subject: Blue Mountain EFIS Reply with quote

Just Curious, how many successfull flight hours do you have behind your BMA?

Cheers,
Stein

do not archive

[quote]--


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 7:59 am    Post subject: Blue Mountain EFIS Reply with quote

Mike,

I'm certainly satisfied with the GRT EFIS and the "service experience." At one time, GRT was way ahead in features with ability to fly coupled approaches, maps overlays and what all....many of the things BMA promised but never delivered (and no, I don't own a BMA, but that doesn't mean I can't have an opinion!). The main ding on GRT was the low resolution of the display. The display was not as beautiful as a BMA, but then, it would consistently boot up and not go dark--a good tradeoff.

They have responded to concern about display resolution by shipping a higher resolution display next month that is a little bigger and, no surprise, costs a little more, but they will upgrade previous units for a reasonably fair cost. The higher resolution, reported to be a good looker, should be helpful in displaying maps, obstructions, wx, airports, et al. When that many details were shown on the lo-res units, readability did become a bit of an issue.

In sum, even though not bullet proof (even the certified units aren't), I believe GRT is an excellent choice and a good value for the offered feature set with excellent service to back it up. With that said, there are several competing systems that are also very good and if the price, aesthetics and features strike your fancy, they will do well for you also. With all the new choices available, life-is-good.

Chuck Jensen
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 8:18 am    Post subject: Blue Mountain EFIS Reply with quote

At 08:31 PM 1/14/2008 -0500, you wrote:

Quote:

<sam.marlow(at)adelphia.net>

I've been in the aircraft business as long as most people on this list,and
I've never head as many complaints about any other vender as Blue
Mountain. Why don't you just blow off the advice of this list,and go ahead
and buy there product, then tell us were wrong! Smile
Sam


What we're witnessing here is a "snowstorm" of
anecdotal data and the attempts by many to deduce
a "degree of goodness" for a product based on
analysis of that data.

In the TC aircraft world, we rely on repeatable
experiments that put a product through a representative
set of tests that benchmark performance.
These tests are completely independent of the
producer's talents for design, manufacturing and
customer service.

Complaints are valuable information but must be
sorted for relevance to (1) science or (2)
business model. The world's most elegant product
is worthless when it cannot be supported by
quality workmanship and honorable marketing.
On the other hand, many a marginal and/or
even dangerous product has gained a marketplace
toe-hold when manufactured and promoted by
persuasive individuals. Just watch late night
TV for a host of examples for the later class
of merchandise.

We've all heard less than complimentary reports
about Blue Mountain. I've received numerous
stories from knowledgeable system integrators,
pilots and marketing folks who had nothing
but good wishes for success of this product. They
wanted to sell it as a supporting system in their
own airframes.

All of these stories are dated. I would hope
that Blue Mountain's longevity in the marketplace
has more to do with IMPROVEMENTS to both their
science and marketing than for an ability to
squeeze, bottle and sell snake-oil.

When evaluating the usefulness of anecdotal data
from the field, one would do well to view that
data through the filters of reasonableness. Does
the data item make sense? The data items need to
be sorted into two piles: (1) science and (2)
production, marketing and customer service. Finally,
one is well advised to deduce the story teller's
intent . . . informative, humorous, persuasive
or simply hurtful.

If this sounds like more effort and skill
than most of us are able to bring to the argument,
the risk to value for participating in such
discussions becomes obvious. It's an fundamental
element of human nature that individuals with unhappy
experiences will tend toward persuasive words
intended to hurt. But without knowing the
simple-ideas which support an individual's
experience, the intent and value of their words
is not calculable.

I hope individuals who wish to contribute
to the List's collective knowledge and understanding
will do a bit of pre-filtering for their own words
before committing them to the archives. Try to be
informative as to fact and the outcomes of repeatable
experiments. Avoid passing on information that
was not observed/experienced first hand.

Whether you support or disfavor a product or service,
be specific as to the PERSONAL command of facts
upon which you've based your opinion.

Bob . . .


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 8:40 am    Post subject: Blue Mountain EFIS Reply with quote

Chuck,

That has been our experience with the GRT stuff.  Not polished but works very well!  I personally own two EIS systems from GRT based on all the success I have experienced helping other builders and customers.

Mike

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 8:54 am    Post subject: Blue Mountain EFIS Reply with quote

Bob,

I respect your opinion but I must make a distinction between designing
systems vs. purchasing high dollar systems that you have really no
practical way of modifying or changing. A system where failure is
common vs. occasional. Most of the issues discussed on this site are
based on simple boiler plate system design that can be tested thoroughly
prior to full use. My fear is people will add these off the shelf
products using the marketing as fact on units that seem to work and
sometimes do for a short period of time, this leading toward a false
sense of security. The bottom line is most of what is reported here is
not opinion but fact of failure regard failure with out systematic data
collection. For example I have experienced more then 20 hard failures
of my BMA system while running side by side with a Chelton non-certified
EFIS and an Advanced Flight System AF engine system with no failures at
all on these unites over a period of 18 months and three hundred hours
of in-flight time. Just to clarify!

Mike
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