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Suzuki Bottom rail Attach

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captainron1(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 12:08 pm Post subject: Suzuki Bottom rail Attach

As I mentioned earlier folks to those who are interested, here are some of the missing pix of the bottom mount rails. All hardware is SS so after painting I will never have rust streaks from the bolts. I need to now have the motor sit on top of this and then adjust it to center and then drill for final placement. In future if the motor need to be canted for whatever purpose it will be simple to purchase the bottom Angles .25 6061 alum from Spruce and adjust as needed. The angles are fairly inexpensive from spruce and they cut them to length for you, I think its something under 5 bucks per foot. The rubber biscuits are from NAPA for $2.50 each. Not expensive at all even for us on a budget. The bolts that will fasten the whole thing together will be stainless as well and fairly robust, I will make sure they fill the holes in the rubber donuts 5/16 comes to mind but ain't sure yet.

Merry Christmas 

Ron

Arizona

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herbgh

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 145

Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 1:13 pm Post subject: Suzuki Bottom rail Attach

Ron

  

 Can you give me enough info on the Napa rubber biscuits to enable me to order them or direct the Napa folks to the correct catalog..?  I went this route once before , but the local napa guy could not find them by description..Herb 

_____________________________________________________________

Click here for free info on Graduate Degrees.

http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iifmxKZ7LBxWSEkZCC9uyTWxvFGYV7omnylT5lsnWAeq4JdrX/

neilsenrm(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 1:16 pm Post subject: Suzuki Bottom rail Attach

NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_14576_1198617352_2--

neilsenrm(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 1:40 pm Post subject: Suzuki Bottom rail Attach

NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_10650_1198618659_2--

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 2:36 pm Post subject: Suzuki Bottom rail Attach

Ron, You might want to consider welding compression tubes into your frame rails so they don't collapse the rails when you torque down the engine mounting bolts. The old mounts on my Mark III had rectangular tube spacers without compression tubes and it was never possible to really tighten the through bolts. The result was that all the pieces fretted against each other. 

Just a thought.



Rick



On Dec 25, 2007 3:37 PM,  <neilsenrm(at)comcast.net (neilsenrm(at)comcast.net)> wrote:

[quote] NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_10650_1198618659_2--

[b]

azfirestar

Joined: 08 Dec 2007
Posts: 25

Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 3:54 pm Post subject: Suzuki Bottom rail Attach

Ron,

 

 Thanks for keeping us up to date on the Suzuki install, especially the photos.  I have always been very interested in automotove/motorcycle engine conversions for aircraft.  One comment I have, for what its worth, is to be careful of stainless steel bolts in high stress locations.  Garden variety stainless bolts have about 1/3 the yield strength and 60 percent of the tensile strength of Grade 5 fasteners.  In your application, it looks like you have the freedom to oversize the bolts, so you could go with stainless but use larger sizes.  Unless you want to do a full stress analysis, I would look at applications with similar stresses (eg. same engine weight) and then if using stainless, go with bolt diameters two sizes larger than you would with a grade 5 or 8.  Or you could go with high strength stainless like A286.

 

 Dan G. 

 F2  Tucson

 

 Ron wrote: [quote]    	  Quote: 	
		  As I mentioned earlier folks to those who are interested, here are some of the missing pix of the bottom mount rails. All hardware is SS so after painting I will never have rust streaks from the bolts. I need to now have the motor sit on top of this and then adjust it to center and then drill for final placement. In future if the motor need to be canted for whatever purpose it will be simple to purchase the bottom Angles .25 6061 alum from Spruce and adjust as needed. The angles are fairly inexpensive from spruce and they cut them to length for you, I think its something under 5 bucks per foot. The rubber biscuits are from NAPA for $2.50 each. Not expensive at all even for us on a budget. The bolts that will fasten the whole thing together will be stainless as well and fairly robust, I will make sure they fill the holes in the rubber donuts 5/16 comes to mind but ain't sure yet.

Merry Christmas 

Ron

Arizona 	
 [b]

_________________
Dan G.
503 Firestar II
Tucson AZ

captainron1(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 4:05 pm Post subject: Suzuki Bottom rail Attach

Ok I found the receipt from NAPA, here is the number on the receipt 

"602-1045 its noted as MR MOUNT" I think I have the boxes in the hanger trash, so if that doesn't do it let me know and I'll fish out the boxes. I guess I ought to document somewhere this stuff..  

Now I am going to be using 8 of them, 4 on the bottom and 4 on top they are $2.9 each. Believe it or not Ace has pretty similar stuff to this, and the smell test indicates that its very close to being the same rubber compound. However Ace wants 4 bucks for each rubber donut.

Ron

Arizona

============================== 

---- "herbgh(at)juno.com" <herbgh(at)juno.com> wrote: 



=============




Ron

  

 Can you give me enough info on the Napa rubber biscuits to enable me to order them or direct the Napa folks to the correct catalog..?  I went this route once before , but the local napa guy could not find them by description..Herb 

_____________________________________________________________

Click here for free info on Graduate Degrees.

http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iifmxKZ7LBxWSEkZCC9uyTWxvFGYV7omnylT5lsnWAeq4JdrX/

--

kugelair.com

herbgh

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 145

Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 4:18 pm Post subject: Suzuki Bottom rail Attach

Ron



  Many thanks...I will give it a try tomorrow.. finding shock mounts , or rubber that can be used as such has been difficult here in SE Ky..

;

  I need some for replacement on my N3 Pup.  I am told that Lord makes their shock mounts of all types in Bowling Green Ky.. so close yet so far!!  Herb 



  so not archive



  attach catchy phrase here:  

_____________________________________________________________

Click here to double your salary by becoming a medical transcriber.

http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iifev4iwLAdVhqgnBnxzT3ON1ISJZVFs4ReSvr3bcYcPSmRZL/

captainron1(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 4:21 pm Post subject: Suzuki Bottom rail Attach

I decided against any vertical drilling of the tubes. The hols will be through the aluminum only and with just enough clearance to be able to tighten the nut on the bottom side of the Angle, about 30% of the donut will rest directly above the rail. the rest will be a bit outboard on the angle. As you can imagine I spent quite a bit of time playing / thinking about it. This is as most Kolbs are a prototype, and its built to be as robust and as simple as possible. I already know of several different ways of making the mount, not necessarily better. I do think that this for now is probably the least complicated way of doing it. However all along I did not want to drill any holes in the rails, I finally settled on 3 of  .25 holes for the bolts through the middle of the rail as you see in the pix. As that area is little stressed vertically and the angles on top will transfer loads all along the rail. I did initially almost go and do what you are proposing though.



Ron

Arizona

=======================

---- Richard Girard <jindoguy(at)gmail.com> wrote: 



=============

Ron, You might want to consider welding compression tubes into your frame

rails so they don't collapse the rails when you torque down the engine

mounting bolts. The old mounts on my Mark III had rectangular tube spacers

without compression tubes and it was never possible to really tighten the

through bolts. The result was that all the pieces fretted against each

other.

Just a thought.



Rick



On Dec 25, 2007 3:37 PM, <neilsenrm(at)comcast.net> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_10650_1198618659_2--




	


--

kugelair.com

captainron1(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 4:33 pm Post subject: Suzuki Bottom rail Attach

As you can imagine,  

I thought about that as well. The bottom rail bolts are in shear load mostly and each .25 is rated iirc to min of 125000 psi. In other words .75 = .25 x 3 =.75 is worth about  93000 pounds per side. as I have two sides I think it looks like I will need about 186000 lb of force to shear them. There is nothing on the Kolb that will stay on if I am ever near any crash load like that including me.  The upper bolts will also be mostly in shear but they will need to transfer force to a larger area via the rubber and the angles. So that's why they are much bigger size for the top.

But will see, I may change everything right after the first time I fire the engine up. 

Ron

Arizona

=======================



---- "Dan G." <azfirestar(at)cox.net> wrote: 



=============

Ron,



Thanks for keeping us up to date on the Suzuki install, especially the 

photos.  I have always been very interested in automotove/motorcycle 

engine conversions for aircraft.  One comment I have, for what its 

worth, is to be careful of stainless steel bolts in high stress 

locations.  Garden variety stainless bolts have about 1/3 the yield 

strength and 60 percent of the tensile strength of Grade 5 fasteners.  

In your application, it looks like you have the freedom to oversize the 

bolts, so you could go with stainless but use larger sizes.  Unless you 

want to do a full stress analysis, I would look at applications with 

similar stresses (eg. same engine weight) and then if using stainless, 

go with bolt diameters two sizes larger than you would with a grade 5 or 

8.  Or you could go with high strength stainless like A286.



Dan G.

F2  Tucson



Ron wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  As I mentioned earlier folks to those who are interested, here are some of the missing pix of the bottom mount rails. All hardware is SS so after painting I will never have rust streaks from the bolts. I need to now have the motor sit on top of this and then adjust it to center and then drill for final placement. In future if the motor need to be canted for whatever purpose it will be simple to purchase the bottom Angles .25 6061 alum from Spruce and adjust as needed. The angles are fairly inexpensive from spruce and they cut them to length for you, I think its something under 5 bucks per foot. The rubber biscuits are from NAPA for $2.50 each. Not expensive at all even for us on a budget. The bolts that will fasten the whole thing together will be stainless as well and fairly robust, I will make sure they fill the holes in the rubber donuts 5/16 comes to mind but ain't sure yet.

Merry Christmas 

Ron

Arizona




	


--

kugelair.com

azfirestar

Joined: 08 Dec 2007
Posts: 25

Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 6:25 pm Post subject: Suzuki Bottom rail Attach

Ron,

 

 Now that I look at the numbers, I agree they look pretty good.  I am often guilty of over thinking things, but I believe it usually ends up being for the best.  The calc I did comes out differently but still looks favorable.  The minimum tensile strength I've seen for ordinary 304/347/316 is 75000 psi.   Shear failures occur at 50 to 60 percent of tensile strength, so I used 37500 psi.   The shear area of a .25 inch fastener is .049 sq-in, so the shear load each can handle is 37500 x .049 = 1840 lbs.  Still a big number.  What has always concerned me about ordinary ss bolts is their yield strength is only about 40 percent of tensile.  This means they can stretch and therefore loosen up at less than half the rated tensile load.  Probably like most of us, I am used to being pretty conservative since real life is usually more complex than the calcs assume.  I am not familiar with iirc - does that mean strain hardened?  I see those are rated to 100 ksi yield and 125 ksi tensile which is a very sturdy solution.  Thanks for sharing the process with us - we all learn a lot along the way.

 

 Dan

 Tucson

 

 Ron wrote:

 [quote]    	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kolb-List message posted by: Ron <captainron1(at)cox.net> (captainron1(at)cox.net)



As you can imagine,  

I thought about that as well. The bottom rail bolts are in shear load mostly and each .25 is rated iirc to min of 125000 psi. In other words .75 = .25 x 3 =.75 is worth about  93000 pounds per side. as I have two sides I think it looks like I will need about 186000 lb of force to shear them. There is nothing on the Kolb that will stay on if I am ever near any crash load like that including me.  The upper bolts will also be mostly in shear but they will need to transfer force to a larger area via the rubber and the angles. So that's why they are much bigger size for the top.

But will see, I may change everything right after the first time I fire the engine up. 

Ron

Arizona

  

  	
 [b]

_________________
Dan G.
503 Firestar II
Tucson AZ

NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 9:59 am Post subject: Suzuki Bottom rail Attach

Ron



I tried to post earlier when I was in Colorado but couldn't get the text to 

transmit.



The photos help a bunch. I would add some gussets to stabilize those rails a 

bunch more. Also weld steel over all the holes and treat with a anti rust 

treatment. I agree with the suggestion of using bushings that you weld in 

place and run your bolts thru. The bushings would allow you to torque the 

bolts to reduce movement and better seal the rails to keep air and moisture 

out.



Remember when you make major changes to the cage you become the test pilot. 

Check the mount frequently thru the life of the aircraft.



For those of you that want to mount alternative engines, you may want to 

consider the new VW mount if the standard mount doesn't work. This mount 

might not exactly fit your engine but will likely work with only minor 

changes. The VW engine mount allows engines to be mounted much lower like 

Ron has done, without forcing you to test pilot your changes for the life of 

the airframe. The engine mount Kolb offers for the VW has more bracing, 

gussets, and uses heaver steel than I used on my VW so it should strong 

enough for most any engine. The fewer modifications you make to the cage the 

better.



As always the advice is worth what you paid for it.



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW powered MKIIIC



---

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