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rgf(at)dcn.davis.ca.us
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 2:49 pm Post subject: Looking for advice on Wing and Fuse Kit: QB or Standard

On Monday December 3 a buddy and I will each order the kits for the -9A, and

of course we must choose between the Quick Build and Standard.



We understand the principle of trading dollars for time, and both of us lean

towards saving time. But we wonder what additional items or things might we

want to do to the fuselage or wing, that would be difficult to do if

starting from the QB? For instance, I might want to extend the fuel tank 4

or 5 gals on each side, and that would be almost impossible to do with the

QB wing.



Or again, I am interested in using a combined pitot tube/angle-of-attack. Is

this much harder to install with a QB wing?



Also, how long have you taken building the Standard wing?



If this has been asked before just point me to the thread.... 



[Also posted in the VAF ]



Ralph Finch

Davis, California

streiker

Joined: 29 Mar 2006
Posts: 13

Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:07 pm Post subject: Looking for advice on Wing and Fuse Kit: QB or Standard

You said:  'I might want to extend the fuel tank 4 or 5 gals on each

side'



Why?  Is there some big mission deviation that you are planning?



 

Stephen (Steve) Streiker  

--

_________________
Stephen D Streiker

dthomas773(at)sbcglobal.n
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:22 pm Post subject: Looking for advice on Wing and Fuse Kit: QB or Standard

Ralph,

I would think long, hard and seriously about

redesigning the fuel tanks whether it be QB or

standard kit.  I would talk to Van's about tip tanks

first.  Actually with an 0-320 engine the 36 gal

provided will give you well over 600 miles and 4 hours

of range.

If you do deside to redesign the wing you could get a

standard wing kit and still order a QB fuselage.



Dennis Thomas

--- Ralph Finch <rgf(at)dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <rgf(at)dcn.davis.ca.us>

 

 On Monday December 3 a buddy and I will each order

 the kits for the -9A, and

 of course we must choose between the Quick Build and

 Standard.

 

 We understand the principle of trading dollars for

 time, and both of us lean

 towards saving time. But we wonder what additional

 items or things might we

 want to do to the fuselage or wing, that would be

 difficult to do if

 starting from the QB? For instance, I might want to

 extend the fuel tank 4

 or 5 gals on each side, and that would be almost

 impossible to do with the

 QB wing.

 

 Or again, I am interested in using a combined pitot

 tube/angle-of-attack. Is

 this much harder to install with a QB wing?

 

 Also, how long have you taken building the Standard

 wing?

 

 If this has been asked before just point me to the

 thread.... 

 

 [Also posted in the VAF ]

 

 Ralph Finch

 Davis, California

 

 



 Click on

 about

 Admin.



 browse

 Un/Subscription,

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rscott(at)cascadeaccess.c
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:28 pm Post subject: Looking for advice on Wing and Fuse Kit: QB or Standard

This may or may not help, but the majority opinion, including from Van's 

brother, is that if you can only do one QB kit, do the QB wing and the 

slow build fuselage.  Next step down in price is to do slow build both, 

but order the prebuilt fuel tanks.



My slow build wings probably took me about 500 hrs.; probably a little 

slower than most.



I wouldn't bother with more fuel.  How often would you use the full fuel 

capacity, anyway?  The time it takes to enlarge the fuel tanks won't be 

offset by the time saved with the longer range unless you fly long 

distances most of the time.  And by doing so, you negate the engineering 

thought that went into the design and enter unknown territory.



Richard Scott

RV-9A Fuselage



Ralph Finch wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 On Monday December 3 a buddy and I will each order the kits for the -9A, and

 of course we must choose between the Quick Build and Standard.



 We understand the principle of trading dollars for time, and both of us lean

 towards saving time. But we wonder what additional items or things might we

 want to do to the fuselage or wing, that would be difficult to do if

 starting from the QB? For instance, I might want to extend the fuel tank 4

 or 5 gals on each side, and that would be almost impossible to do with the

 QB wing.



 Or again, I am interested in using a combined pitot tube/angle-of-attack. Is

 this much harder to install with a QB wing?



 Also, how long have you taken building the Standard wing?



 If this has been asked before just point me to the thread.... 



 [Also posted in the VAF ]



 Ralph Finch

 Davis, California

aurbo(at)ak.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:48 pm Post subject: Looking for advice on Wing and Fuse Kit: QB or Standard

Ralph,



Do you want to fly or build? I did the slow build wings and QB fuselage. If I did it again I would do QB for both. 



Mike Ice

Cowling just about done



---

trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:56 pm Post subject: Looking for advice on Wing and Fuse Kit: QB or Standard

Ralph



 	  Quote: 	
		  From my experience, I can tell you that it is very easy to install the

"angle-of-attack" in the QB wing, at least the one which is now sold by
	


Advanced Control Systems.  

I believe the one from Dynon will be more or less the same.

I also installed a heated pitot tube, from Gretz Aero, and it was very easy

to do it in the QB wing.

Further, if you do both before riveting the bottom skin, which comes in the

QB wing for you to do it, it will be a piece of cake.



Obviously the same cannot be done with your intention to extend the fuel

tanks. In order to do this, you should buy the standard wings; but you still

can buy the QB fuselage...



If money is not a problem, go for the QB! 

It will save you a lot of building time and it permits all the changes and

additions you could possibly want, except extending the fuel tanks 



Carlos

RV-9A

[quote] --

ceengland(at)bellsouth.ne
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 5:14 pm Post subject: Looking for advice on Wing and Fuse Kit: QB or Standard

Easy: tankering. If you can buy wholesale or have an auto-fuel capable 

engine, you can do many mid-range trips both ways without refueling.



An extra 10 gal might not help a lot, but another 20 would certainly be 

beneficial.



I bought slow build wings for my -7 kit because I wanted to add fuel 

capacity, but in retrospect it wouldn't be that hard to add fuel after 

the fact. There's a guy in FL doing 'hired gun' work on Mustang replica 

kits. He starts with QB kits, cuts access holes on the bottom of the 

leading edge 'D' cells, 'caulks' the joints & shop heads of the rivets & 

seals up the holes.



On the -9, it might be even easier. Where are the lightening holes in 

the spar, outside the existing tanks? You might be able to reach in 

through those holes to seal the joints/rivet heads, then close the 

lightening holes with sealed plates. Fuel pickup can go through the 

spar, or if you skip a bay, you can put the pickup in the rib just like 

the stock tank.



Having added 'wet wing' aux tanks to the -7 wing leading edges, I'm 

confident that the technique described above on a QB wing would be a lot 

easier and faster than what I did on the slow build wings.



If the -9 QB wing is like the -7 QB, with one of the bottom skins left 

for the builder, then any of the other mods should be a non-event.



I don't really want to talk about how many hours I've got in the wings...



Charlie



Streiker, Stephen D. wrote:

[quote] 

 

 You said:  'I might want to extend the fuel tank 4 or 5 gals on each

 side'

 

 Why?  Is there some big mission deviation that you are planning?

 

  

 Stephen (Steve) Streiker  

 

 

 --

bill(at)repucci.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 5:46 pm Post subject: Looking for advice on Wing and Fuse Kit: QB or Standard

Ralph,



Having paid myself around $8/hr to assemble my slow build, I would go

quick build, if I were doing it again.



As adding fuel, check out SafeAir1's option:

http://www.safeair1.com/HWA/HWA_Buying_Tanks.htm



Bill



--

rv9ralph(at)tailsrwaggin.
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 6:23 pm Post subject: Looking for advice on Wing and Fuse Kit: QB or Standard

If it's more fuel that is your decision hinge point, look at the Hotel

Whisky (marketed by SafeAir1 extended tanks. The put a tubular tank in

the lightening holes of the leading edge ribs from the existing tank to

the tip with a filler in the tip, gets about 1 to 2 hours extended

range. It can easily be retrofitted or you can put the fuel bungs on

your existing tank either in construction or after it is built.



The website is:  http://www.safeair1.com/index.htm



Ralph -- wings

Livermore, CA

Do not archive

Bob Perkinson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 51
Location: Hendersonville, Tennessee

Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 11:15 pm Post subject: Looking for advice on Wing and Fuse Kit: QB or Standard

Charlie the retro fit on my RV9 wing tanks was fairly straight forward.  Sealed up the last 3 outboard bays of the wing added all the necessary hard ware, Level indicators, low point sump, and fuel pick up, and a new filler ring at the wing tip and it came up with 14 gal  extra space in each wing.  Not that I want to travel around the world but I do want to get back from those long cross countries that terminate at someone’s back yard field with no way to fuel up unless I stop on the way home, I would have to leave earlier. And miss the fun. 

  

Bob Perkinson 

RV-9do not archive

 [quote]-------------- Original message from Charlie England <ceengland(at)bellsouth.net>: -------------- 

[quote] --> RV9-List message posted by: Charlie England 

 

 Easy: tankering. If you can buy wholesale or have an auto-fuel capable 

 engine, you can do many mid-range trips both ways without refueling. 

 

 An extra 10 gal might not help a lot, but another 20 would certainly be 

 beneficial. 

 

 I bought slow build wings for my -7 kit because I wanted to add fuel 

 capacity, but in retrospect it wouldn't be that hard to add fuel after 

 the fact. There's a guy in FL doing 'hired gun' work on Mustang replica 

 kits. He starts with QB kits, cuts access holes on the bottom of the 

 leading edge 'D' cells, 'caulks' the joints & shop heads of the rivets & 

 seals   up th e holes. 

 

 On the -9, it might be even easier. Where are the lightening holes in 

 the spar, outside the existing tanks? You might be able to reach in 

 through those holes to seal the joints/rivet heads, then close the 

 lightening holes with sealed plates. Fuel pickup can go through the 

 spar, or if you skip a bay, you can put the pickup in the rib just like 

 the stock tank. 

 

 Having added 'wet wing' aux tanks to the -7 wing leading edges, I'm 

 confident that the technique described above on a QB wing would be a lot 

 easier and faster than what I did on the slow build wings. 

 

 If the -9 QB wing is like the -7 QB, with one of the bottom skins left 

 for the builder, then any of the other mods should be a non-event. 

 

 I don't really want to talk about how many hours I've got in the wings... 

 

 Charlie 

 

 Streiker, Stephen D.   wrote : 

 > --> RV9-List message posted by: "Streiker, Stephen D." 

 > 

 > You said: 'I might want to extend the fuel tank 4 or 5 gals on each 

 > side' 

 > 

 > Why? Is there some big mission deviation that you are planning? 

 > 

 > 

 > Stephen (Steve) Streiker 

 > 

 > 

 > --

trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 3:35 am Post subject: Looking for advice on Wing and Fuse Kit: QB or Standard

Guys



You are referring to the Hotel Whisky extra tanks, but I want to call your

attention to the fact that they don't have them for the -9.

I don't know why, but every time I ask them (and I've done it in the last 3

years or so), they keep answering that they still don't have the tanks for

the -9.

Maybe you could ask them now...



Let me add that I also think that it should be easy to adapt the tanks which

they sell for the -7 to be used on the -9, but before ordering them I would

like to have the kit in my hands and I am in the other side of the big pond



Carlos Trigo

RV-9A

Portugal

[quote] --

dthomas773(at)sbcglobal.n
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 8:52 am Post subject: Looking for advice on Wing and Fuse Kit: QB or Standard

Bob,

Did you talk to Van's or have available to you

engineering support for this change?  I would think 84

pounds that far outboard on the wing would seriously

degrade load factor safety margins.

Just curious.



Dennis Thomas

--- bobperk90658(at)bellsouth.net wrote:



[quote] Charlie the retro fit on my RV9 wing tanks was

 fairly straight forward.  Sealed up the last 3

 outboard bays of the wing added all the necessary

 hard ware, Level indicators, low point sump, and

 fuel pick up, and a new filler ring at the wing tip

 and it came up with 14 gal  extra space in each

 wing.  Not that I want to travel around the world

 but I do want to get back from those long cross

 countries that terminate at someone’s back yard

 field with no way to fuel up unless I stop on the

 way home, I would have to leave earlier. And miss

 the fun.

 

 Bob Perkinson

 RV-9

 do not archive

 

 -------------- Original message from Charlie England

 <ceengland(at)bellsouth.net>: -------------- 

 

 

 > 

 > 

 > Easy: tankering. If you can buy wholesale or have

 an auto-fuel capable 

 > engine, you can do many mid-range trips both ways

 without refueling. 

 > 

 > An extra 10 gal might not help a lot, but another

 20 would certainly be 

 > beneficial. 

 > 

 > I bought slow build wings for my -7 kit because I

 wanted to add fuel 

 > capacity, but in retrospect it wouldn't be that

 hard to add fuel after 

 > the fact. There's a guy in FL doing 'hired gun'

 work on Mustang replica 

 > kits. He starts with QB kits, cuts access holes on

 the bottom of the 

 > leading edge 'D' cells, 'caulks' the joints & shop

 heads of the rivets & 

 > seals up the holes. 

 > 

 > On the -9, it might be even easier. Where are the

 lightening holes in 

 > the spar, outside the existing tanks? You might be

 able to reach in 

 > through those holes to seal the joints/rivet

 heads, then close the 

 > lightening holes with sealed plates. Fuel pickup

 can go through the 

 > spar, or if you skip a bay, you can put the pickup

 in the rib just like 

 > the stock tank. 

 > 

 > Having added 'wet wing' aux tanks to the -7 wing

 leading edges, I'm 

 > confident that the technique described above on a

 QB wing would be a lot 

 > easier and faster than what I did on the slow

 build wings. 

 > 

 > If the -9 QB wing is like the -7 QB, with one of

 the bottom skins left 

 > for the builder, then any of the other mods should

 be a non-event. 

 > 

 > I don't really want to talk about how many hours

 I've got in the wings... 

 > 

 > Charlie 

 > 

 > Streiker, Stephen D. wrote: 

 > > 

 Stephen D." 

 > > 

 > > You said: 'I might want to extend the fuel tank

 4 or 5 gals on each 

 > > side' 

 > > 

 > > Why? Is there some big mission deviation that

 you are planning? 

 > > 

 > > 

 > > Stephen (Steve) Streiker 

 > > 

 > > 

 > > --

rscott(at)cascadeaccess.c
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 12:02 pm Post subject: Looking for advice on Wing and Fuse Kit: QB or Standard

Ralph,



Here are some complications you will encounter if you try this:  The 

fuel tank skins are thicker than the leading edge skins.  The LE skin 

feels pretty flimsy by comparison.  If you simply seal in the leading 

edge for one or 2 rib bays, that little tank won't be as strong as the 

regular tank.  I don't know if this is a problem.  If you want to use 

fuel tank skins just for the width of your additional tank area, you 

will need to install an extra rib at the outboard end of your tank with 

a splice strip; at least that's how the factory joined the tank skin 

with the LE skin.  And how are you going to cut a prebent skin to get a 

nice straight edge so the joint will look good? 



Maybe Van's, if you ask nicely, will provide you with a LE skin the 

thickness of the tank skin, but I doubt it.



There is no provision in the spar for an additional rib at the joint 

between your tank and the LE and I don't know if you could modify it.  

You can't just use tank skins full width because the tank skins are an 

inch or two shorter than the LE skins.  Then you also have to route fuel 

and vent lines.



My suggestion?  Forget it.  The closer you stick to the original design, 

the faster the plane will go together, the sooner you will be flying.  

Use a fuel injected engine, lean out, throttle back to get range. 



After you are flying, then consider maybe a baggage compartment aux tank 

like a friend of mine is building.  Removable, & he only intends to use 

it when flying solo.  Estimates 5 gallons.  Much simpler concept, no 

structural questions.  Has to keep it in mid for W&B, however, so he 

will mount it up next to the seat back.



Richard Scott

RV-9A Fuselage



Ralph Finch wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 On Monday December 3 a buddy and I will each order the kits for the -9A, and

 of course we must choose between the Quick Build and Standard.



 We understand the principle of trading dollars for time, and both of us lean

 towards saving time. But we wonder what additional items or things might we

 want to do to the fuselage or wing, that would be difficult to do if

 starting from the QB? For instance, I might want to extend the fuel tank 4

 or 5 gals on each side, and that would be almost impossible to do with the

 QB wing.



 Or again, I am interested in using a combined pitot tube/angle-of-attack. Is

 this much harder to install with a QB wing?



 Also, how long have you taken building the Standard wing?



 If this has been asked before just point me to the thread.... 



 [Also posted in the VAF ]



 Ralph Finch

 Davis, California

Bob Perkinson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 51
Location: Hendersonville, Tennessee

Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 4:03 pm Post subject: Looking for advice on Wing and Fuse Kit: QB or Standard

Dennis,<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> 

I have not personally run the numbers, but I am not the only one that has put a little extra weight out on the wings.  Check out this RV-9A 

http://www3.telus.net/haywire/RV-9/C-FSTB.htm 

  

When I wrote to Van's they only told me that there had not been any engineering studies preformed on this modification.  

  

I have the option to go without. 

  

Bob Perkinson 

  

Do Not Archive 

  

  [quote]-------------- Original message from <dthomas773(at)sbcglobal.net>: -------------- 

 	  Quote: 	
		   --> RV9-List message posted by: 

 

 Bob, 

 Did you talk to Van's or have available to you 

 engineering support for this change? I would think 84 

 pounds that far outboard on the wing would seriously 

 degrade load factor safety margins. 

 Just curious. 

 

 Dennis Thomas 

	
       	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

ceengland(at)bellsouth.ne
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 9:23 pm Post subject: Looking for advice on Wing and Fuse Kit: QB or Standard

I'm not an engineer, but people who are tell me that it actually 

*improves* load safety margins. (It also degrades spin characteristics, 

but that's not what you asked about  )



Charlie



dthomas773(at)sbcglobal.net wrote:

[quote] 

 

 Bob,

 Did you talk to Van's or have available to you

 engineering support for this change?  I would think 84

 pounds that far outboard on the wing would seriously

 degrade load factor safety margins.

 Just curious.

 

 Dennis Thomas

 --- bobperk90658(at)bellsouth.net wrote:

 

> Charlie the retro fit on my RV9 wing tanks was

> fairly straight forward.  Sealed up the last 3

> outboard bays of the wing added all the necessary

> hard ware, Level indicators, low point sump, and

> fuel pick up, and a new filler ring at the wing tip

> and it came up with 14 gal  extra space in each

> wing.  Not that I want to travel around the world

> but I do want to get back from those long cross

> countries that terminate at someone’s back yard

> field with no way to fuel up unless I stop on the

> way home, I would have to leave earlier. And miss

> the fun.

>

> Bob Perkinson

> RV-9

> do not archive

>

> -------------- Original message from Charlie England

> <ceengland(at)bellsouth.net>: -------------- 

>> 

>>

>> Easy: tankering. If you can buy wholesale or have

> an auto-fuel capable 

>> engine, you can do many mid-range trips both ways

> without refueling. 

>> An extra 10 gal might not help a lot, but another

> 20 would certainly be 

>> beneficial. 

>>

>> I bought slow build wings for my -7 kit because I

> wanted to add fuel 

>> capacity, but in retrospect it wouldn't be that

> hard to add fuel after 

>> the fact. There's a guy in FL doing 'hired gun'

> work on Mustang replica 

>> kits. He starts with QB kits, cuts access holes on

> the bottom of the 

>> leading edge 'D' cells, 'caulks' the joints & shop

> heads of the rivets & 

>> seals up the holes. 

>>

>> On the -9, it might be even easier. Where are the

> lightening holes in 

>> the spar, outside the existing tanks? You might be

> able to reach in 

>> through those holes to seal the joints/rivet

> heads, then close the 

>> lightening holes with sealed plates. Fuel pickup

> can go through the 

>> spar, or if you skip a bay, you can put the pickup

> in the rib just like 

>> the stock tank. 

>>

>> Having added 'wet wing' aux tanks to the -7 wing

> leading edges, I'm 

>> confident that the technique described above on a

> QB wing would be a lot 

>> easier and faster than what I did on the slow

> build wings. 

>> If the -9 QB wing is like the -7 QB, with one of

> the bottom skins left 

>> for the builder, then any of the other mods should

> be a non-event. 

>> I don't really want to talk about how many hours

> I've got in the wings... 

>> Charlie 

>>

>> Streiker, Stephen D. wrote: 

>>> 

> Stephen D." 

>>> You said: 'I might want to extend the fuel tank

> 4 or 5 gals on each 

>>> side' 

>>>

>>> Why? Is there some big mission deviation that

> you are planning? 

>>>

>>> Stephen (Steve) Streiker 

>>>

>>>

>>> --

rv9ralph(at)tailsrwaggin.
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 10:02 pm Post subject: Looking for advice on Wing and Fuse Kit: QB or Standard

Vans' addressed the issues surrounding adding aux fuel tanks in an

RVAter article sometime in the last 18 months.



Ralph

Wings

Livermore

Do not archive

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