Matronics Email Lists Forum Index Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists
 
 Get Email Distribution Too!Get Email Distribution Too!    FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

914 Fuel System

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Europa-List
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
g-iani(at)ntlworld.com
Guest





PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 1:10 am    Post subject: 914 Fuel System Reply with quote

The 914 fuel system shown in the Mod 33 documentation is the old parallel
pump system. This is no longer recommended by Rotax.

The present recommendation is for the serial layout shown in the Tech Talk
article in EF43.

Ian Rickard #505 G-IANI XS Trigear
Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear)
e-mail mods(at)europaclub.org.uk
or direct g-iani(at)ntlworld.com


- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
CraigEllison



Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 24
Location: Silverton, OR USA

PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:48 pm    Post subject: 914 Fuel System Reply with quote

All,

I too had my system set up in parellel and changed to series after talking
to John H. One reason I remember of the conversation was about allowing
proper readings on the fuel pressure/MP differential gauge.

craig ellison
A205/N205CN
Almost ready to fly

---


- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
hagargs(at)earthlink.net
Guest





PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 9:00 pm    Post subject: 914 Fuel System Reply with quote

Pumps in parallel increase volume, pumps in series increase pressure. This
per Eric Tucker the Rotax class instructor.

Presently have pumps in parallel per initial instructions. Need to evaluate
what it will take to change it out. Does anyone out there know a 4 ft tall
90 lb mechanic?
Steve Hagar
A143
Mesa AZ
Spraying the last coat of primer on.

Steve Hagar
hagargs(at)earthlink.net
Quote:
[Original Message]
From: josok <josok-e(at)ukolo.fi>
Date: 2/21/2006 1:21:28 AM
Subject: RE: 914 Fuel System



Hi Dan,

The difference is that in the tech talk, just as in the latest issue of
the XS 914 engine manual the pumps are operating in serial. This seems to

be a Rotax requirement. I intend to follow that requirement, although at
this time i can't figure out where the advantage is. Anybody with more
insight?
Quote:

Kind Regards,

Jos Okhuijsen
----------------







- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
BEBERRY(at)aol.com
Guest





PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 1:27 am    Post subject: 914 Fuel System Reply with quote

I have followed the recent parallel v series argument with interest. As the
owner of a 914 with pumps in parallel and have no occasion in Europe to fly
above say 7,000ft and then seldom, I wonder if some one more erudite than I
could explain what problems I am likely to encounter and whether I should
consider a modification?

Patrick


- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
jodel(at)nildram.co.uk
Guest





PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 2:40 am    Post subject: 914 Fuel System Reply with quote

I think that if there was a good reason for the pumps not to be in parallel
then we would have seen an SB mandating the change to series.

Simon

--


- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
gottfried.komaier(at)gmx.
Guest





PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 7:18 am    Post subject: 914 Fuel System Reply with quote

Jos, Dan, and all,

The discussion of the fuel system is an academical-discussion, but
nevertheless, I will give you more ideas to think about.
First of all, don't think that the pumps in SERIES are only helpful at high
altitudes. Stable fuel-pressure is fine at lower altitudes as well. At the
critical phase of flight
-Take Off - the volume of one pump is more as enough. In this phase of
operation, a higher pressure (or in other words, a stable pressure) is the
important thing. Does one of you checked the fuel-flow of the "Pierburg"
fuel pump? At full power (5800 RPM) the fuel flow of the 914 is ~33l/h.
Have a look at www.msi-motor-service.com and learn more about this pump. In
PARALLEL there is so much fuel going back to the tank. In case of an
pump-failure when operating in SERIES, the second pump works - in this phase
of flight - in the same way as when in PARALLEL. Don't are the fuel pumps on
the 912 (mechanical-electrical) in SERIES, as well? What do you think is the
reason for that? Does one of you would start a discussion on that? I don't
think so. Pierburg fuel-pumps are developed for car- and stationary engines,
not for aircraft-engines. At the beginning of manufacture of the 914 engine,
Rotax take the drawings of Pierburg. Does one of you know, that the original
design of the 914 runs with the mechanical pump, as we can see on the 912
engine? I think the real problem of the 914 fuel pump-design is the
dependence on electricity. What happens in case of an serious
electricity-problem? Then the flight becomes s i l e n t. In this situation,
God gives you a meadow under your wings! The dependence on electricity is
the real and only problem of the 914 fuel system, not the PARALLEL -or
SERIES- design.

Let me know, what you are thinking about this problem.

Regards,

Gottfried


- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
paul.mcallister



Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 177
Location: Waukesha, WI USA

PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 7:49 am    Post subject: 914 Fuel System Reply with quote

Hi all,

I am a curious to know if the 914 pump can be purchased from any one other
than Rotax? Does anyone know ?

Paul


- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
wdaniell(at)etb.net.co
Guest





PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 7:50 am    Post subject: 914 Fuel System Reply with quote

Interestingly enough on my Colombian Zenith STOL clone which I fly when I am
not making cock ups on my Europa, I have a turboed 912 (a 912 with a car
turbo bolted on). This has a mechanical pump and an electric pump.

If you turn the electric pump off it will only make about 23inch MP which is
sufficient at 8500msl (Bogota) to maintain altitude but not much more - but
at least the motor does not stop.

I am intending to use this engine in the Europa with two electric pumps - a
main and a manually operated "boost" for critical flight phases.

Will
--


- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
jan.de.jong(at)xs4all.nl
Guest





PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 3:07 pm    Post subject: 914 Fuel System Reply with quote

I wonder if there have been electric fuel pump changes. The series vs.
parallel recommendation may have something to do with the
characteristics of the fuel pumps: more "flow source" (offering constant
flow, any required pressure) or more "pressure source" (offering
constant pressure, any required flow). In the first case you would want
a series connection, in the second a parallel one.

Just a thought.

Cheers,
Jan de Jong
461, second wing.


- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
M.Grass(at)comcast.net
Guest





PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 11:06 pm    Post subject: 914 Fuel System Reply with quote

I like to approach the problem by analyzing the possible failure modes. Not
knowing the exact function principle of the Pierburg pump from Rotax, I take
the assumption that at any time a pump could fail mechanically in a way that
the pump will not crate pressure and also will not block the fuel flow in
the reverse direction.In the original parallel design you are in trouble now
because you have a short circuit through the defective pump and you are no
longer able to maintain pressure.
The second failure could be: Clogging up filter elements. The two pumps in
series will produce a higher pressure. This could might be helpful if the
filter starts to clog up and might could still get you over the fence.

Just my penny of thoughts.

Michael Grass
A266 Trigear Detroit.
Building stopped, way to cold in Michigan
---


- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno
Guest





PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 12:53 am    Post subject: 914 Fuel System Reply with quote

Ing. Gottfried Komaier a crit :
.

Quote:
The dependence on electricity is
the real and only problem of the 914 fuel system, not the PARALLEL -or
SERIES- design.




Hi all,

Gotfried is right about the real issue on the 914.
The pumps must be fed from truly independant electrical sources. In this
respect, the architecture suggested by Rotax leaves much to be desired.
Concerning the installation of the pumps, Rotax first suggested a
correct parallel setup EXCEPT they forgot about the check valves.
They then suggested the "inline" configuration. It is not a real series,
as the fuel bypasses one of the pump in case of blockage (remember
Pierburg says the pumps are not really transparent). Nothing wrong with
this system. Just a bit tortuous.
Two years ago, we adopted the standard parallel system with check
valves, as suggested in the Pierburg information. The French importer
could not see any reason why we should not do it.
The airplane (not a Europa, I'm afraid Wink has been flying for one year
now, and has been tested up to FL 145 without any problem, from -14C to
+37C.
I'm crafting a little web summary on this issue.

Regards,
Gilles Thesee
Grenoble, France
http://contrails.free.fr


- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno
Guest





PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 12:55 am    Post subject: 914 Fuel System Reply with quote

Paul McAllister a crit :

Quote:


Hi all,

I am a curious to know if the 914 pump can be purchased from any one other
than Rotax? Does anyone know ?




Hi Paul and all,

Yes, the "Rotax" pumps are just plain vanilla Pierburg EIF pumps. A well
proven and ubiquitous model in european cars.

Regards,
Gilles Thesee
Grenoble, France
http://contrails.free.fr


- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Europa-List All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group