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engine out

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chenoweth(at)gwi.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 3:08 pm Post subject: engine out

Here's a description of some engine-out practice, the first ever, I had yesterday.  I found it quite enlightening.  Others may find interesting - perhaps useful.



The background goes something like this.  I'm a relatively low-time pilot (350 hrs) with about 200 in my Kitfox (IV-1200 582 w/IVO medium) and the rest in 172s.  Recently I've been chasing a vibration that was almost certainly prop, gearbox, or engine.  But, in the interest of thoroughness I decided to fly to 3000', shut down, and do some gliding to see if, perhaps, the airframe was producing the problem (it wasn't).  I invited my tech counselor along because he's the coolest person I know under even the most trying circumstances and I can be excitable.



As an aside, since this is a two-stroke engine I've been very concerned with the possibility of an engine-induced forced landing so all (I mean All) of my downwind, base, and finals have been with engine at idle (I have the idle set at about 2050 - 2100 on the ground).  I've figured I might as well be ready in case I really have an engine out.   Wasted effort - see below.



To get to the end of the story, we did four separate climbs to about 3000, shut-downs, and descents to a landing.  My plan now is to enlist this willing victim in data collection as I go to 3500 and do engine-out glides at speeds from 45 mph to 65 mph to re-calculate the best glide speeds.



Here's the story.

Yesterday was a perfectly calm day.  We climbed to 3000.   Overcoming my increasing reluctance to actually do it, I shut the engine off.  But, surprise number 1, there was not an abrupt stop.  It ran for a good 15 - 20 seconds as I slowly pulled the nose up into a stall - then the prop quit turning (except for a spastic sort of turn as it went jerkily past compression).

The next surprise was that it wasn't all that quiet - wind noise.

Next was the stall speed - about 42 mph.  All my previous stalls had been at about 34 mph.  They were all with the engine idling.

Finally the descent rate at best glide speed (55 mph but determined with the engine idling) was pretty fast and we didn't seem to be covering a lot of ground.  There was essentially no wind at 1000 to 2000 AGL.  The descent rate was 500+ fpm. 



Of my four descents to landing only two were on the runway initially chosen.  One was on a closer runway due to being too low to make the original destination.  One was aborted about 500' AGL due to being too low.  There is a story there, too.  When I decided I needed to restart, the engine didn't cooperate.  It took several tries and a hundred or so feet of altitude to get it going.  I had the throttle at idle and with one hand flying and the other cranking there was no way to give it more gas.  After that experience I locked the throttle at about 1/3 and the engine started fine.



To summarize - this experience was so unlike what I'd expected (and presumably practiced for) that it was startling. 



I'm very interested in comments from any of you.  Including criticisms of technique or action.



Bill

Albion, Maine

sonex321(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 3:31 pm Post subject: engine out

The 582 idle speed is too high!  On my old IV-1200 582ed (800 hrs), it would 

float a long ways when trying to land when the idle was at 2000 rpm static. 

I then set it to about 1600-1700 rpm static.  Once on the ground with tail 

down, I added throttle to taxi with 2000 rpm or more.  Just add a bit more 

throttle for start engine.

Cheers,

bh

ex-N194KF 582ed IV-1200, 800+ hrs



 	  Quote: 	
		   Here's a description of some engine-out practice, the first ever, I had 

 yesterday.  I found it quite enlightening.  Others may find interesting - 

 perhaps useful.



 The background goes something like this.  I'm a relatively low-time pilot 

 (350 hrs) with about 200 in my Kitfox (IV-1200 582 w/IVO medium) and the 

 rest in 172s.  Recently I've been chasing a vibration that was almost 

 certainly prop, gearbox, or engine.  But, in the interest of thoroughness 

 I decided to fly to 3000', shut down, and do some gliding to see if, 

 perhaps, the airframe was producing the problem (it wasn't).  I invited my 

 tech counselor along because he's the coolest person I know under even the 

 most trying circumstances and I can be excitable.



 As an aside, since this is a two-stroke engine I've been very concerned 

 with the possibility of an engine-induced forced landing so all (I mean 

 All) of my downwind, base, and finals have been with engine at idle (I 

 have the idle set at about 2050 - 2100 on the ground).  I've figured I 

 might as well be ready in case I really have an engine out.   Wasted 

 effort - see below.



 To get to the end of the story, we did four separate climbs to about 3000, 

 shut-downs, and descents to a landing.  My plan now is to enlist this 

 willing victim in data collection as I go to 3500 and do engine-out glides 

 at speeds from 45 mph to 65 mph to re-calculate the best glide speeds.



 Here's the story.

 Yesterday was a perfectly calm day.  We climbed to 3000.   Overcoming my 

 increasing reluctance to actually do it, I shut the engine off.  But, 

 surprise number 1, there was not an abrupt stop.  It ran for a good 15 - 

 20 seconds as I slowly pulled the nose up into a stall - then the prop 

 quit turning (except for a spastic sort of turn as it went jerkily past 

 compression).

 The next surprise was that it wasn't all that quiet - wind noise.

 Next was the stall speed - about 42 mph.  All my previous stalls had been 

 at about 34 mph.  They were all with the engine idling.

 Finally the descent rate at best glide speed (55 mph but determined with 

 the engine idling) was pretty fast and we didn't seem to be covering a lot 

 of ground.  There was essentially no wind at 1000 to 2000 AGL.  The 

 descent rate was 500+ fpm.



 Of my four descents to landing only two were on the runway initially 

 chosen.  One was on a closer runway due to being too low to make the 

 original destination.  One was aborted about 500' AGL due to being too 

 low.  There is a story there, too.  When I decided I needed to restart, 

 the engine didn't cooperate.  It took several tries and a hundred or so 

 feet of altitude to get it going.  I had the throttle at idle and with one 

 hand flying and the other cranking there was no way to give it more gas. 

 After that experience I locked the throttle at about 1/3 and the engine 

 started fine.



 To summarize - this experience was so unlike what I'd expected (and 

 presumably practiced for) that it was startling.



 I'm very interested in comments from any of you.  Including criticisms of 

 technique or action.



 Bill

 Albion, Maine

wliles(at)bayou.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 10:12 am Post subject: engine out

Very interesting report.  Took some nerve to do it.  What you've 

discovered is that the engine gives quite a bit of thrust at idle, 

enough to substantailly streatch a glide and reduce stall speed.  Now 

you really know what to expect if your engine quits and you'll be better 

prepared for it. You also discovered that in air restarts aren't a 

given.  Really increases the pucker factor, doesn't it? 



If you have theRotax C gear box you might consider installing the prop 

clutch.  The good things about the clutch is every landing can be a 

practice for an engine out, you can warm the engine on the ground 

without the prop turning, the engine cranks easier, the engine will 

smoothly idle under 2000rpms.  The bad points are; if the engine does 

quit prop drag is much increased due to the windmilling prop, and the 

prop will rotate on the ground in a strong wind casusing consternation 

in the tower who may think an unattended airplane has its engine running.



Jerry Liles



Chenoweth wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



Here's a description of some engine-out practice, the first ever, I had yesterday.  I found it quite enlightening.  Others may find interesting - perhaps useful.



The background goes something like this.  I'm a relatively low-time pilot (350 hrs) with about 200 in my Kitfox (IV-1200 582 w/IVO medium) and the rest in 172s.  Recently I've been chasing a vibration that was almost certainly prop, gearbox, or engine.  But, in the interest of thoroughness I decided to fly to 3000', shut down, and do some gliding to see if, perhaps, the airframe was producing the problem (it wasn't).  I invited my tech counselor along because he's the coolest person I know under even the most trying circumstances and I can be excitable.



As an aside, since this is a two-stroke engine I've been very concerned with the possibility of an engine-induced forced landing so all (I mean All) of my downwind, base, and finals have been with engine at idle (I have the idle set at about 2050 - 2100 on the ground).  I've figured I might as well be ready in case I really have an engine out.   Wasted effort - see below.



To get to the end of the story, we did four separate climbs to about 3000, shut-downs, and descents to a landing.  My plan now is to enlist this willing victim in data collection as I go to 3500 and do engine-out glides at speeds from 45 mph to 65 mph to re-calculate the best glide speeds.



Here's the story.

Yesterday was a perfectly calm day.  We climbed to 3000.   Overcoming my increasing reluctance to actually do it, I shut the engine off.  But, surprise number 1, there was not an abrupt stop.  It ran for a good 15 - 20 seconds as I slowly pulled the nose up into a stall - then the prop quit turning (except for a spastic sort of turn as it went jerkily past compression).

The next surprise was that it wasn't all that quiet - wind noise.

Next was the stall speed - about 42 mph.  All my previous stalls had been at about 34 mph.  They were all with the engine idling.

Finally the descent rate at best glide speed (55 mph but determined with the engine idling) was pretty fast and we didn't seem to be covering a lot of ground.  There was essentially no wind at 1000 to 2000 AGL.  The descent rate was 500+ fpm. 



Of my four descents to landing only two were on the runway initially chosen.  One was on a closer runway due to being too low to make the original destination.  One was aborted about 500' AGL due to being too low.  There is a story there, too.  When I decided I needed to restart, the engine didn't cooperate.  It took several tries and a hundred or so feet of altitude to get it going.  I had the throttle at idle and with one hand flying and the other cranking there was no way to give it more gas.  After that experience I locked the throttle at about 1/3 and the engine started fine.



To summarize - this experience was so unlike what I'd expected (and presumably practiced for) that it was startling. 



I'm very interested in comments from any of you.  Including criticisms of technique or action.



Bill

Albion, Maine

gofalke(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 1:11 pm Post subject: engine out

Jerry,

  if you had a prop clutch installed, I doubt that you could warm up your engine without the prop turning. On the other hand, you are going to have a heck of the time to hand prop it. 

   

  Herbert Gottelt,

  Mt. Prospect, IL



Jerry Liles <wliles(at)bayou.com> wrote:

  



Very interesting report. Took some nerve to do it. What you've 

discovered is that the engine gives quite a bit of thrust at idle, 

enough to substantailly streatch a glide and reduce stall speed. Now 

you really know what to expect if your engine quits and you'll be better 

prepared for it. You also discovered that in air restarts aren't a 

given. Really increases the pucker factor, doesn't it? 



If you have theRotax C gear box you might consider installing the prop 

clutch. The good things about the clutch is every landing can be a 

practice for an engine out, you can warm the engine on the ground 

without the prop turning, the engine cranks easier, the engine will 

smoothly idle under 2000rpms. The bad points are; if the engine does 

quit prop drag is much increased due to the windmilling prop, and the 

prop will rotate on the ground in a strong wind casusing consternation 

in the tower who may think an unattended airplane has its engine running.



Jerry Liles



Chenoweth wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



Here's a description of some engine-out practice, the first ever, I had yesterday. I found it quite enlightening. Others may find interesting - perhaps useful.



The background goes something like this. I'm a relatively low-time pilot (350 hrs) with about 200 in my Kitfox (IV-1200 582 w/IVO medium) and the rest in 172s. Recently I've been chasing a vibration that was almost certainly prop, gearbox, or engine. But, in the interest of thoroughness I decided to fly to 3000', shut down, and do some gliding to see if, perhaps, the airframe was producing the problem (it wasn't). I invited my tech counselor along because he's the coolest person I know under even the most trying circumstances and I can be excitable.



As an aside, since this is a two-stroke engine I've been very concerned with the possibility of an engine-induced forced landing so all (I mean All) of my downwind, base, and finals have been with engine at idle (I have the idle set at about 2050 - 2100 on the ground). I've figured I might as well be ready in case I really have an engine out. Wasted effort - see below.



To get to the end of the story, we did four separate climbs to about 3000, shut-downs, and descents to a landing. My plan now is to enlist this willing victim in data collection as I go to 3500 and do engine-out glides at speeds from 45 mph to 65 mph to re-calculate the best glide speeds.



Here's the story.

Yesterday was a perfectly calm day. We climbed to 3000. Overcoming my increasing reluctance to actually do it, I shut the engine off. But, surprise number 1, there was not an abrupt stop. It ran for a good 15 - 20 seconds as I slowly pulled the nose up into a stall - then the prop quit turning (except for a spastic sort of turn as it went jerkily past compression).

The next surprise was that it wasn't all that quiet - wind noise.

Next was the stall speed - about 42 mph. All my previous stalls had been at about 34 mph. They were all with the engine idling.

Finally the descent rate at best glide speed (55 mph but determined with the engine idling) was pretty fast and we didn't seem to be covering a lot of ground. There was essentially no wind at 1000 to 2000 AGL. The descent rate was 500+ fpm. 



Of my four descents to landing only two were on the runway initially chosen. One was on a closer runway due to being too low to make the original destination. One was aborted about 500' AGL due to being too low. There is a story there, too. When I decided I needed to restart, the engine didn't cooperate. It took several tries and a hundred or so feet of altitude to get it going. I had the throttle at idle and with one hand flying and the other cranking there was no way to give it more gas. After that experience I locked the throttle at about 1/3 and the engine started fine.



To summarize - this experience was so unlike what I'd expected (and presumably practiced for) that it was startling. 



I'm very interested in comments from any of you. Including criticisms of technique or action.



Bill

Albion, Maine

wingsdown(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 1:17 pm Post subject: engine out

Yep, that was one of the most surprising aspects of my engine out and

subsequent crash. The descent rate was much higher. If you have a free

wheeling redrive as I did, it is even worse that just having the prop

stop. 



Rick



--

wliles(at)bayou.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 1:55 pm Post subject: engine out

Herbert

I installed the clutch on Tootie Mae during construction and have always 

flown with it.  The engine starts easily and idles smoother than any 

other 582 I've seen.  She will warm up at 2200rpms quite nicely except 

in coldest winter, and, since the clutch doesn't engage until 2400rpm, 

the prop is stopped.  Hand propping is a real problem, that's why I have 

the rope starter.  It's also nice to idle the engine and not have to 

stand on the brakes while doing preflight checks and getting  clearance 

from the tower.  Little things, true, but they certainly are nice.  The 

biggest negative is the windmilling prop if the engine quits.  The glide 

does suffer, but, since I practice engine out landings every landing I'm 

used to it and probably better prepared than the usual pilot.



Jerry Liles



Herbert R Gottelt wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



Jerry,

  if you had a prop clutch installed, I doubt that you could warm up your engine without the prop turning. On the other hand, you are going to have a heck of the time to hand prop it. 

   

  Herbert Gottelt,

  Mt. Prospect, IL



Jerry Liles <wliles(at)bayou.com> wrote:

  



Very interesting report. Took some nerve to do it. What you've 

discovered is that the engine gives quite a bit of thrust at idle, 

enough to substantailly streatch a glide and reduce stall speed. Now 

you really know what to expect if your engine quits and you'll be better 

prepared for it. You also discovered that in air restarts aren't a 

given. Really increases the pucker factor, doesn't it? 



If you have theRotax C gear box you might consider installing the prop 

clutch. The good things about the clutch is every landing can be a 

practice for an engine out, you can warm the engine on the ground 

without the prop turning, the engine cranks easier, the engine will 

smoothly idle under 2000rpms. The bad points are; if the engine does 

quit prop drag is much increased due to the windmilling prop, and the 

prop will rotate on the ground in a strong wind casusing consternation 

in the tower who may think an unattended airplane has its engine running.



Jerry Liles



Chenoweth wrote:

gofalke(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 7:55 pm Post subject: engine out

O.K. Jerry,

   

  My apologies, I am familiar with the overrunning clutch or one way clutch that Tom Anderson has on his Series 5 with the NSI engine. You probably referred to a friction clutch with spring type fly weights, similar to the clutch on my chain saw and hopefully stronger and more substantial.

   

  Herbert Gottelt 



Jerry Liles <wliles(at)bayou.com> wrote:

  

Herbert

I installed the clutch on Tootie Mae during construction and have always 

flown with it. The engine starts easily and idles smoother than any 

other 582 I've seen. She will warm up at 2200rpms quite nicely except 

in coldest winter, and, since the clutch doesn't engage until 2400rpm, 

the prop is stopped. Hand propping is a real problem, that's why I have 

the rope starter. It's also nice to idle the engine and not have to 

stand on the brakes while doing preflight checks and getting clearance 

from the tower. Little things, true, but they certainly are nice. The 

biggest negative is the windmilling prop if the engine quits. The glide 

does suffer, but, since I practice engine out landings every landing I'm 

used to it and probably better prepared than the usual pilot.



Jerry Liles



Herbert R Gottelt wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



Jerry,

 if you had a prop clutch installed, I doubt that you could warm up your engine without the prop turning. On the other hand, you are going to have a heck of the time to hand prop it. 

 

 Herbert Gottelt,

 Mt. Prospect, IL



Jerry Liles wrote:

 



Very interesting report. Took some nerve to do it. What you've 

discovered is that the engine gives quite a bit of thrust at idle, 

enough to substantailly streatch a glide and reduce stall speed. Now 

you really know what to expect if your engine quits and you'll be better 

prepared for it. You also discovered that in air restarts aren't a 

given. Really increases the pucker factor, doesn't it? 



If you have theRotax C gear box you might consider installing the prop 

clutch. The good things about the clutch is every landing can be a 

practice for an engine out, you can warm the engine on the ground 

without the prop turning, the engine cranks easier, the engine will 

smoothly idle under 2000rpms. The bad points are; if the engine does 

quit prop drag is much increased due to the windmilling prop, and the 

prop will rotate on the ground in a strong wind casusing consternation 

in the tower who may think an unattended airplane has its engine running.



Jerry Liles



Chenoweth wrote:

wliles(at)bayou.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 5:40 am Post subject: engine out

No problem Herbert.  I see where the confusion comes and understand your 

concern.  I bet an engine out with the overrunnig clutch is a real 

sphincter tightener. The clutch for the 582 is an aftermarket item for 

the C Gearbox and it is a massive centrifugal clutch.  Works great on 

the two stroke but it is different than the overrunning clutch on the NSI.

Jerry Liles

Herbert R Gottelt wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

O.K. Jerry,

  My apologies, I am familiar with the overrunning clutch or one way clutch that Tom Anderson has on his Series 5 with the NSI engine. You probably referred to a friction clutch with spring type fly weights, similar to the clutch on my chain saw and hopefully stronger and more substantial.

  Herbert Gottelt 

Jerry Liles <wliles(at)bayou.com> wrote:

Herbert

I installed the clutch on Tootie Mae during construction and have always 

flown with it. The engine starts easily and idles smoother than any 

other 582 I've seen. She will warm up at 2200rpms quite nicely except 

in coldest winter, and, since the clutch doesn't engage until 2400rpm, 

the prop is stopped. Hand propping is a real problem, that's why I have 

the rope starter. It's also nice to idle the engine and not have to 

stand on the brakes while doing preflight checks and getting clearance 

from the tower. Little things, true, but they certainly are nice. The 

biggest negative is the windmilling prop if the engine quits. The glide 

does suffer, but, since I practice engine out landings every landing I'm 

used to it and probably better prepared than the usual pilot.

Jerry Liles

Herbert R Gottelt wrote:

>

>

>Jerry,

>if you had a prop clutch installed, I doubt that you could warm up your engine without the prop turning. On the other hand, you are going to have a heck of the time to hand prop it. 

>

>Herbert Gottelt,

>Mt. Prospect, IL

>

>Jerry Liles wrote:

>

>

>Very interesting report. Took some nerve to do it. What you've 

>discovered is that the engine gives quite a bit of thrust at idle, 

>enough to substantailly streatch a glide and reduce stall speed. Now 

>you really know what to expect if your engine quits and you'll be better 

>prepared for it. You also discovered that in air restarts aren't a 

>given. Really increases the pucker factor, doesn't it? 

>

>If you have theRotax C gear box you might consider installing the prop 

>clutch. The good things about the clutch is every landing can be a 

>practice for an engine out, you can warm the engine on the ground 

>without the prop turning, the engine cranks easier, the engine will 

>smoothly idle under 2000rpms. The bad points are; if the engine does 

>quit prop drag is much increased due to the windmilling prop, and the 

>prop will rotate on the ground in a strong wind casusing consternation 

>in the tower who may think an unattended airplane has its engine running.

>

>Jerry Liles

>

>Chenoweth wrote:

>

>    

>

jopatco(at)mindspring.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 6:23 am Post subject: engine out

It is different in principle but the effects are the same in that the 

prop will freewheel when the engine quits. That is why Lance had to come 

up with a CAP. If you don't think a freewheeling prop doesnt have a lot 

of drag/lift, then you don't believe a gyrocopter can fly.



Jerry Liles wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



No problem Herbert.  I see where the confusion comes and understand your 

concern.  I bet an engine out with the overrunnig clutch is a real 

sphincter tightener. The clutch for the 582 is an aftermarket item for 

the C Gearbox and it is a massive centrifugal clutch.  Works great on 

the two stroke but it is different than the overrunning clutch on the NSI.

Jerry Liles



Herbert R Gottelt wrote:



  



>

>

>O.K. Jerry,

>  

> My apologies, I am familiar with the overrunning clutch or one way clutch that Tom Anderson has on his Series 5 with the NSI engine. You probably referred to a friction clutch with spring type fly weights, similar to the clutch on my chain saw and hopefully stronger and more substantial.

>  

> Herbert Gottelt 

>

>Jerry Liles <wliles(at)bayou.com> wrote:

> 

>Herbert

>I installed the clutch on Tootie Mae during construction and have always 

>flown with it. The engine starts easily and idles smoother than any 

>other 582 I've seen. She will warm up at 2200rpms quite nicely except 

>in coldest winter, and, since the clutch doesn't engage until 2400rpm, 

>the prop is stopped. Hand propping is a real problem, that's why I have 

>the rope starter. It's also nice to idle the engine and not have to 

>stand on the brakes while doing preflight checks and getting clearance 

>    

>

>from the tower. Little things, true, but they certainly are nice. The 

  



>biggest negative is the windmilling prop if the engine quits. The glide 

>does suffer, but, since I practice engine out landings every landing I'm 

>used to it and probably better prepared than the usual pilot.

>

>Jerry Liles

>

>Herbert R Gottelt wrote:

>

> 

>

>    

>

>>

>>

>>Jerry,

>>if you had a prop clutch installed, I doubt that you could warm up your engine without the prop turning. On the other hand, you are going to have a heck of the time to hand prop it. 

>>

>>Herbert Gottelt,

>>Mt. Prospect, IL

>>

>>Jerry Liles wrote:

>>

>>

>>Very interesting report. Took some nerve to do it. What you've 

>>discovered is that the engine gives quite a bit of thrust at idle, 

>>enough to substantailly streatch a glide and reduce stall speed. Now 

>>you really know what to expect if your engine quits and you'll be better 

>>prepared for it. You also discovered that in air restarts aren't a 

>>given. Really increases the pucker factor, doesn't it? 

>>

>>If you have theRotax C gear box you might consider installing the prop 

>>clutch. The good things about the clutch is every landing can be a 

>>practice for an engine out, you can warm the engine on the ground 

>>without the prop turning, the engine cranks easier, the engine will 

>>smoothly idle under 2000rpms. The bad points are; if the engine does 

>>quit prop drag is much increased due to the windmilling prop, and the 

>>prop will rotate on the ground in a strong wind casusing consternation 

>>in the tower who may think an unattended airplane has its engine running.

>>

>>Jerry Liles

>>

>>Chenoweth wrote:

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>   

>>

>>      

>>

>

> 

>

>    

>

kirkhull(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 7:38 am Post subject: engine out

Thats why many twins can fearher the props on a dead engine.



--

algate(at)attglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 5:27 am Post subject: engine out

I have also done quite a few practice "dead stick" landings - mainly I

winter over frozen lakes. One thing you need to be careful of is a cold

seizure if you do a re-start and apply too much power. The engine really

cools down quickly on a dead stick descent!



GaryA

Lite2/582

 	  Quote: 	
		  The background goes something like this.  I'm a relatively low-time pilot

(350 hrs) with about 200 in my Kitfox (IV-1200 582 w/IVO medium) and the
	


rest in 172s.  Recently I've been chasing a vibration that was almost

certainly prop, gearbox, or engine.  But, in the interest of thoroughness I

decided to fly to 3000', shut down, and do some gliding to see if, perhaps,

the airframe was producing the problem (it wasn't).  I invited my tech

counselor along because he's the coolest person I know under even the most

trying circumstances and I can be excitable.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

As an aside, since this is a two-stroke engine I've been very concerned

with the possibility of an engine-induced forced landing so all (I mean All)
	


of my downwind, base, and finals have been with engine at idle (I have the

idle set at about 2050 - 2100 on the ground).  I've figured I might as well

be ready in case I really have an engine out.   Wasted effort - see below.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

To get to the end of the story, we did four separate climbs to about 3000,

shut-downs, and descents to a landing.  My plan now is to enlist this
	


willing victim in data collection as I go to 3500 and do engine-out glides

at speeds from 45 mph to 65 mph to re-calculate the best glide speeds.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

Here's the story.

Yesterday was a perfectly calm day.  We climbed to 3000.   Overcoming my

increasing reluctance to actually do it, I shut the engine off.  But,
	


surprise number 1, there was not an abrupt stop.  It ran for a good 15 - 20

seconds as I slowly pulled the nose up into a stall - then the prop quit

turning (except for a spastic sort of turn as it went jerkily past

compression).

 	  Quote: 	
		  The next surprise was that it wasn't all that quiet - wind noise.

Next was the stall speed - about 42 mph.  All my previous stalls had been

at about 34 mph.  They were all with the engine idling.
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  Finally the descent rate at best glide speed (55 mph but determined with

the engine idling) was pretty fast and we didn't seem to be covering a lot
	


of ground.  There was essentially no wind at 1000 to 2000 AGL.  The descent

rate was 500+ fpm. 

 	  Quote: 	
		  

Of my four descents to landing only two were on the runway initially

chosen.  One was on a closer runway due to being too low to make the
	


original destination.  One was aborted about 500' AGL due to being too low.

There is a story there, too.  When I decided I needed to restart, the engine

didn't cooperate.  It took several tries and a hundred or so feet of

altitude to get it going.  I had the throttle at idle and with one hand

flying and the other cranking there was no way to give it more gas.  After

that experience I locked the throttle at about 1/3 and the engine started

fine.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

To summarize - this experience was so unlike what I'd expected (and

presumably practiced for) that it was startling. 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  

I'm very interested in comments from any of you.  Including criticisms of

technique or action.
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  

Bill

Albion, Maine

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 1:45 pm Post subject: engine out

On Feb 18, 2006, at 12:08 AM, Chenoweth wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Here's a description of some engine-out practice, the first ever, I 

 had yesterday.


	


Thanks for the interesting story, Bill. And the following experiences 

from Kurt and many other, regarding dead-stick and rate of sink. I did 

a few dead-stick landings with my instructor, three years ago. But I 

have to admit that since, I haven't dare to do it myself, alone. All of 

the can-go-wrong that has been mentioned on this list, have crossed my 

mind. I was hoping for a cold winter and gliding down from say, 3,000 

ft to a miles long frozen lake but ... much snow has come and that 

isolates the lakes from a thick ice cover.



Cheers,

Michel



do not archive

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