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rtitsworth
Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 76
Location: Detroit, Mi
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 Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 1:09 pm Post subject: EFIS Bewilderment - CFS questions |
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Tim,
I'm considering a Chelton (dual sport) as I am sold on the concepts of synthetic vision, flight path/vector, dynamic glide range, etc, and on the stability of Chelton in the market place (D2A fiasco not withstanding). But, I want to make sure I'm not surprised by it's quirks/limitations.
1. Am I right that it doesn’t sync flight plans with the 480? Where do you enter you flight plans, amendments, and approach selections - directly on the Chelton only? If so, why have a 480 vs a 430 or vs a bare bones GPS-155 (basic IFR GPS backup) and an SL30? Do you EVER use ANY of the flight planning features of the 480?
2. My understanding is that the 480 allows Victor Airway flight planning. I believe that is not available when planning on the Cheltons – correct?
3. Your earlier post mentioned a potential shortage of ARINC inputs? I'm perhaps a bit ignorant of what's handled via RS232 vs Arinc? etc. Is there any insight/education you can offer here? How is TIS wired to the Chelton? How is a Ryan TCAD wired to a Chelton? How does the Chelton connect to a TT A/P?, etc
4. If I have an SL30 and a 480 how do I decide which radio's NAV signal is used for NAV indications on a) the Chelton, b) the autopilot (Sorcerer), c) a single backup CDI? Does the Chelton accept dual NAV feeds? Or do I need external switches for that - or is it common to hardwire specific radios to each i.e. #1 480 to the Chelton and Sorcerer and #2 SL30 to backup CDI?
5. Am I correct that the only WX available on the Chelton is WSI (not XM)?
6. It seems a drawback of many/most/all of the EFIS systems is their in-capability to display a std approach chart. While the approach may be built-into the DB’s for inclusion to the GPS flight plan, I’m still “stuck” on having the std plate view available in the cockpit - so I can see/follow/check it and for min altitudes for circling approaches etc – or to easily look up the ILS/LOC freq. It seems ironic that the info that is being made available for free by the Gov (terps PDF’s), is not readily available on anything (except perhaps a laptop in the copilot seat). JEPP View on the GMX200 is perhaps the best alternative – but so much for the gov PDF’s.
7. Is there any reason (to your knowledge) to be considering a GMX200 with a Chelton (dual sport) setup. If I had a Chelton dual sport, it seems the GMX200 is just a “nicer” moving map – more surface detail, profile view, etc.
8. One of Garmin’s G900 selling points/questions is… “Wonder why few/none of the popular certified GA companies aren’t using CFS (which is certified).” Having Cessna, Piper, Cirrus, Columbia, Diamond, Mooney, etc all behind Garmin is perhaps a compelling argument to go with Garmin and wait for them to “catch-up” on synthetic vision. Thoughts/comments?
Sorry for all the “rookie” questions.
Rick
[quote][b]
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jesse(at)saintaviation.co
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 1:41 pm Post subject: EFIS Bewilderment - CFS questions |
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If you want plates in the panel, then you might consider looking into trueflight’s software and possibly either a Flight Cheetah or similar system to display weather and charts. The nice thing there is that the updates for all map data and approach plates is $200/year. Another option would be a pocket PC with anywhere plates on it or something like that. The updates are a little bit more, but not even approaching anywhere near the cost of Jepp plates. It’s kinda nice to know you have plates for everywhere no matter where you are going or where you want to divert to.
The problem with going Garmin and waiting for them to “catch up” is that they have almost no incentive to catch up. They have such a huge market share, and don’t seem to stand much risk of losing it, that they can keep spitting out the same stuff at the same or higher price and the market just bucks up and deals with it. Look how long it took to get WAAS on the 430 and 530, and how much it costs. Don’t expect Garmin to jump on new things very fast. They got into the weather business because they knew they needed something for that to keep their handheld market, but have you tried to read a 396 screen in sunlight? It reflects like a mirror. Can’t see a thing in the sunlight, hardly, although that is the time when you least need to see the weather also, in most cases.
I will still go Garmin for my stack, but that’s because everybody knows how to use them, which is worth a lot.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of rtitsworth
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 5:09 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: EFIS Bewilderment - CFS questions
Tim,
I'm considering a Chelton (dual sport) as I am sold on the concepts of synthetic vision, flight path/vector, dynamic glide range, etc, and on the stability of Chelton in the market place (D2A fiasco not withstanding). But, I want to make sure I'm not surprised by it's quirks/limitations.
1. Am I right that it doesn’t sync flight plans with the 480? Where do you enter you flight plans, amendments, and approach selections - directly on the Chelton only? If so, why have a 480 vs a 430 or vs a bare bones GPS-155 (basic IFR GPS backup) and an SL30? Do you EVER use ANY of the flight planning features of the 480?
2. My understanding is that the 480 allows Victor Airway flight planning. I believe that is not available when planning on the Cheltons – correct?
3. Your earlier post mentioned a potential shortage of ARINC inputs? I'm perhaps a bit ignorant of what's handled via RS232 vs Arinc? etc. Is there any insight/education you can offer here? How is TIS wired to the Chelton? How is a Ryan TCAD wired to a Chelton? How does the Chelton connect to a TT A/P?, etc
4. If I have an SL30 and a 480 how do I decide which radio's NAV signal is used for NAV indications on a) the Chelton, b) the autopilot (Sorcerer), c) a single backup CDI? Does the Chelton accept dual NAV feeds? Or do I need external switches for that - or is it common to hardwire specific radios to each i.e. #1 480 to the Chelton and Sorcerer and #2 SL30 to backup CDI?
5. Am I correct that the only WX available on the Chelton is WSI (not XM)?
6. It seems a drawback of many/most/all of the EFIS systems is their in-capability to display a std approach chart. While the approach may be built-into the DB’s for inclusion to the GPS flight plan, I’m still “stuck” on having the std plate view available in the cockpit - so I can see/follow/check it and for min altitudes for circling approaches etc – or to easily look up the ILS/LOC freq. It seems ironic that the info that is being made available for free by the Gov (terps PDF’s), is not readily available on anything (except perhaps a laptop in the copilot seat). JEPP View on the GMX200 is perhaps the best alternative – but so much for the gov PDF’s.
7. Is there any reason (to your knowledge) to be considering a GMX200 with a Chelton (dual sport) setup. If I had a Chelton dual sport, it seems the GMX200 is just a “nicer” moving map – more surface detail, profile view, etc.
8. One of Garmin’s G900 selling points/questions is… “Wonder why few/none of the popular certified GA companies aren’t using CFS (which is certified).” Having Cessna, Piper, Cirrus, Columbia, Diamond, Mooney, etc all behind Garmin is perhaps a compelling argument to go with Garmin and wait for them to “catch-up” on synthetic vision. Thoughts/comments?
Sorry for all the “rookie” questions.
Rick [quote] [b]
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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rtitsworth
Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 76
Location: Detroit, Mi
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 2:21 pm Post subject: EFIS Bewilderment - CFS questions |
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Thanks!
My (personal) opinion is the pocket plates are pretty small when it comes to actually trying to read them in real IMC conditions/workloads (especially single pilot).
Your Garmin (little motivation) view is interesting/plausible. The 430W/530W upgrade delays certainly were a black eye for them. It wouldn’t be hard to imagine a similar issue with the G1000/G900’s and synthetic vision. If it’s “just software” why isn’t it already there in the first place?
Rick
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jesse Saint
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 5:41 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: EFIS Bewilderment - CFS questions
If you want plates in the panel, then you might consider looking into trueflight’s software and possibly either a Flight Cheetah or similar system to display weather and charts. The nice thing there is that the updates for all map data and approach plates is $200/year. Another option would be a pocket PC with anywhere plates on it or something like that. The updates are a little bit more, but not even approaching anywhere near the cost of Jepp plates. It’s kinda nice to know you have plates for everywhere no matter where you are going or where you want to divert to.
The problem with going Garmin and waiting for them to “catch up” is that they have almost no incentive to catch up. They have such a huge market share, and don’t seem to stand much risk of losing it, that they can keep spitting out the same stuff at the same or higher price and the market just bucks up and deals with it. Look how long it took to get WAAS on the 430 and 530, and how much it costs. Don’t expect Garmin to jump on new things very fast. They got into the weather business because they knew they needed something for that to keep their handheld market, but have you tried to read a 396 screen in sunlight? It reflects like a mirror. Can’t see a thing in the sunlight, hardly, although that is the time when you least need to see the weather also, in most cases.
I will still go Garmin for my stack, but that’s because everybody knows how to use them, which is worth a lot.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of rtitsworth
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 5:09 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: EFIS Bewilderment - CFS questions
Tim,
I'm considering a Chelton (dual sport) as I am sold on the concepts of synthetic vision, flight path/vector, dynamic glide range, etc, and on the stability of Chelton in the market place (D2A fiasco not withstanding). But, I want to make sure I'm not surprised by it's quirks/limitations.
1. Am I right that it doesn’t sync flight plans with the 480? Where do you enter you flight plans, amendments, and approach selections - directly on the Chelton only? If so, why have a 480 vs a 430 or vs a bare bones GPS-155 (basic IFR GPS backup) and an SL30? Do you EVER use ANY of the flight planning features of the 480?
2. My understanding is that the 480 allows Victor Airway flight planning. I believe that is not available when planning on the Cheltons – correct?
3. Your earlier post mentioned a potential shortage of ARINC inputs? I'm perhaps a bit ignorant of what's handled via RS232 vs Arinc? etc. Is there any insight/education you can offer here? How is TIS wired to the Chelton? How is a Ryan TCAD wired to a Chelton? How does the Chelton connect to a TT A/P?, etc
4. If I have an SL30 and a 480 how do I decide which radio's NAV signal is used for NAV indications on a) the Chelton, b) the autopilot (Sorcerer), c) a single backup CDI? Does the Chelton accept dual NAV feeds? Or do I need external switches for that - or is it common to hardwire specific radios to each i.e. #1 480 to the Chelton and Sorcerer and #2 SL30 to backup CDI?
5. Am I correct that the only WX available on the Chelton is WSI (not XM)?
6. It seems a drawback of many/most/all of the EFIS systems is their in-capability to display a std approach chart. While the approach may be built-into the DB’s for inclusion to the GPS flight plan, I’m still “stuck” on having the std plate view available in the cockpit - so I can see/follow/check it and for min altitudes for circling approaches etc – or to easily look up the ILS/LOC freq. It seems ironic that the info that is being made available for free by the Gov (terps PDF’s), is not readily available on anything (except perhaps a laptop in the copilot seat). JEPP View on the GMX200 is perhaps the best alternative – but so much for the gov PDF’s.
7. Is there any reason (to your knowledge) to be considering a GMX200 with a Chelton (dual sport) setup. If I had a Chelton dual sport, it seems the GMX200 is just a “nicer” moving map – more surface detail, profile view, etc.
8. One of Garmin’s G900 selling points/questions is… “Wonder why few/none of the popular certified GA companies aren’t using CFS (which is certified).” Having Cessna, Piper, Cirrus, Columbia, Diamond, Mooney, etc all behind Garmin is perhaps a compelling argument to go with Garmin and wait for them to “catch-up” on synthetic vision. Thoughts/comments?
Sorry for all the “rookie” questions.
Rick | Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
012345
[quote][b]
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http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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Tim Olson
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2882
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 2:50 pm Post subject: EFIS Bewilderment - CFS questions |
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Sorry if this reply seems to be a bandwidth waster to some. If you have
no interest in the reply, just delete now.
Rick, I'll reply inline so I can go step by step through it.
rtitsworth wrote:
| Quote: | Tim,
I'm considering a Chelton (dual sport) as I am sold on the concepts of
synthetic vision, flight path/vector, dynamic glide range, etc, and on
the stability of Chelton in the market place (D2A fiasco not
withstanding). But, I want to make sure I'm not surprised by it's
quirks/limitations.
1. Am I right that it doesn’t sync flight plans with the 480? Where do
you enter you flight plans, amendments, and approach selections -
directly on the Chelton only? If so, why have a 480 vs a 430 or vs a
bare bones GPS-155 (basic IFR GPS backup) and an SL30? Do you EVER use
ANY of the flight planning features of the 480?
|
Yes, sync'ing flight plans is not something that it can do. You'd have
to enter the flight plan into the 480 if you want to have it loaded.
You do all of your flight plan entry, your amendments, and approach
selection directly into the Chelton. It has a very powerful and easy
to use flight planning system. For me, it was pretty intuitive. That
said, I'd highly recommend for anyone SERIOUSLY interested in the system
that they read Keith Thomassen's user guide. He shows some of the
power and the features and how to use them, right in the book. It's
one of those things that I finally just got less than a month ago, and
after reading it, I learned even more. It's a great thing that would
push many people over the edge on their decision too, once you see
some of the features it has in use. It's very easy to quickly amend
or reroute, or for that matter do a pop-up approach in an emergency.
You can load it in seconds if you have to.
As for why having the 480/430 or other....I wasn't going to keep myself
on a tight budget while building a dream machine, so since I was going
to spend money on another nav/com, and another GPS (and the 480 gave
me WAAS LPV approaches too), and the price was well under a 530, and
it fit in the panel, I decided not to short myself and just get that.
You ask if I EVER use any of the flight planning features of the 480...
well, actually, I never have and BIG reason to, so I rarely have. It's
been my personal assignment for 2007....to better learn that box. So,
I bought the manual that Keith made for that box now too, and I'm
1/2 way through it. Regardless of its shortcomings in regards to
integrating data with the CFS, it's a very powerful box. It would
give me the ability to fly most any approach, even with full EFIS
failure. In the past I've loaded and watched flight plans go by on
the 480, but it was more just to see if I could do it....not because
I had a big reason to. The CFS flight planner is easier to use,
and it rivals the 480's abilities too.
| Quote: |
2. My understanding is that the 480 allows Victor Airway flight
planning. I believe that is not available when planning on the Cheltons
– correct?
|
No, that's not correct. On the CFS (you could see this in Keith's
guide on page 6 if you get it) it shows how to file using airways.
You basically can enter your airway just like you'd enter a waypoint
on the flightplan, and when you enter an airway, it will ask you
for an endpoint along that airway....so you just choose the endpoint
and can then hop from there to either another airway or direct to, or
whatever you want to do. Also, one of the cool features for those
who get WSI too, is that on the flight planning page it actually
displays weather too, so you can enter your plan, route your plan
around the weather, and then go call ATC and file it. When you
see the flight planning page in action, you'll see it's MUCH nicer
than a 430 or 480 with that much screen real-estate and color
available...it makes things very clear. If a user was willing
to leave their backup plan as flying somewhere for an ILS in case
of EFIS failure, you really have no need at all for a 430 or
480....and a SL-30 would do just fine. Also, with the autopilot,
if you fly the CFS, you don't really NEED a sorcerer, so you'll
save a few thousand there. Where the sorcerer adds function is
that it will allow you to fly some approaches with something like
a 430, if you have a full EFIS failure. The GNS480 though also
integrates to the DFIIVSGV much like the CFS, so except for
ILS type approaches, you're really not missing much if you skip
the sorcerer.
| Quote: |
3. Your earlier post mentioned a potential shortage of ARINC inputs?
I'm perhaps a bit ignorant of what's handled via RS232 vs Arinc? etc.
Is there any insight/education you can offer here? How is TIS wired to
the Chelton? How is a Ryan TCAD wired to a Chelton? How does the
Chelton connect to a TT A/P?, etc
|
I can speak for the GTX330 for TIS...that's wired by using an ARINC to
serial converter. The ARINC comes out of the 330 and gets converted
to serial for the CFS. The converter box is around $1200, and it adds
one ARINC Tx circuit, and 2 ARINC Rx circuits to the Chelton Sport.
The Pro already has more ARINC ports than the Sport. If you have that
converter box, you really don't need more ports at all, but you will
want that converter if you have a 330 for TIS. The Ryan TCAD, from
what I understand, is wired RS-232, so that should need no extras,
but I haven't wired one to give verification of that. The chelton talks
to the TT AP using ARINC and RS-232 both. The ARINC is required for
GPSV functionality, and the RS-232 provides basic GPS track info
and things like that, so you can do GPSS too. The only fly in that
ointment is that the TT AP only can do low speed ARINC, unless there
is something they don't say in the manual....but that doesn't mean
it doesn't work fine. The shortage of ARINC inputs though, if you
have that converter, isn't really an issue....it's just that it
would be nice not to have to buy the converter. I don't know if
you'd need it or not if you had a pro system with a 330 transponder.
| Quote: | 4. If I have an SL30 and a 480 how do I decide which radio's NAV signal
is used for NAV indications on a) the Chelton, b) the autopilot
(Sorcerer), c) a single backup CDI? Does the Chelton accept dual NAV
feeds? Or do I need external switches for that - or is it common to
hardwire specific radios to each i.e. #1 480 to the Chelton and Sorcerer
and #2 SL30 to backup CDI?
|
I would use your SL30 as your #1 Nav/Com, because that's the one that
integrates best. You'll be able to display BOTH the active and standby
NAV indication from the SL30, so you don't really need a #2 NAV
to do things like triangulation. You can also monitor 2nd NAV and COM
signals on the 480, but not display them on the big screens. If you
then have the sorcerer, you would want to pull ARINC, Serial, and NAV
signals from the 480 to the TruTrak. If you use a DFIIVSGV, you'd
just pull ARINC and Serial. The single backup CDI if you add one would
just tie directly to the 480. For me, I've only used it on some
practice approaches, but I just like having that CDI in case I ever
actually wanted to use it. As for accepting dual NAV feeds, sure,
it could, but you'll already have that with the SL-30, so I don't
think you'd do more that that...and you don't need external switches.
As for your last sentence, I'd change that to: #1 NAV Radio (SL-30)
putting BOTH CDI's on the CFS, and #2 NAV Radio (480) putting NO
CDI's on the CFS, but just to the backup CDI. Your system (the 480)
would then truly be an independent backup.
| Quote: |
5. Am I correct that the only WX available on the Chelton is WSI (not XM)?
|
Yes, other than the CFS actually can do ADS-B's free weather too, if
it's available in your area, and you have the Garmin GDL XXX (whatever)
box that is sold for ADS-B. But I've heard that even Garmin says
not to bother because ADS-B's free weather stinks in comparison to
what the commercial ones offer...very limited feature set. XM isn't
able to be displayed right now. Perhaps in the future, but
I'd just plan to go WSI because anything else would be hopeful
vaporware for some time, and may never happen. The WSI does work
very well though. I can't wait to see how it works when they swap
to Sirius.
| Quote: |
6. It seems a drawback of many/most/all of the EFIS systems is their
in-capability to display a std approach chart. While the approach may
be built-into the DB’s for inclusion to the GPS flight plan, I’m still
“stuck” on having the std plate view available in the cockpit - so I can
see/follow/check it and for min altitudes for circling approaches etc –
or to easily look up the ILS/LOC freq. It seems ironic that the info
that is being made available for free by the Gov (terps PDF’s), is not
readily available on anything (except perhaps a laptop in the copilot
seat). JEPP View on the GMX200 is perhaps the best alternative – but so
much for the gov PDF’s.
|
I'm 1/2 with you there, and 1/2 not. You're right, having a quick way
to display it would be nice...no disagreement there. But, I would
also not want it taking up my display all of the time during an
approach. Also, in general I actually think I prefer the smaller
screens of the CFS that allow you to locate them differently and have
more of them, to the larger screens on things like a G900, but the
larger screens would be nicer to display those charts. You're right
that it's nice to have the info available though. The info you need
is actually usually available on the CFS, so you can choose NRST - ILS
and get Freq's and stuff no problem, and actually also auto-fill them
into your SL-30. The other downside that so many people forget about
the Chart options on their EFIS is that not only is it an expensive
option, but it's an expensive option that you have to subscribe to.
OUCH! Don't get me started on the "Free" data from the gov't vs. the
super-high-priced Jepp stuff!! It's just WAY too expensive to pay
for all sorts of databases! In general, you could VERY easily fly
most any approach on the CFS without having a paper or electronic
chart in front of you, and you'd have much of the info you'd want.
The things that are lacking are things like the time in seconds for
the approach using Categories A, B, C.... and so on. But with full
vertical guidance on the approach, with stepdowns, you really have
everything you need to survive without a chart. But, that's not to
say I'd ever want to go WITHOUT a chart. What works for me is twofold.
#1, I print paper charts before major trips, of at least a couple
of main approaches at my planned stops. These are your down and dirty
backups, and hey, it's just nice to have paper sometimes so you
can not push buttons, can fold it to a kneeboard, and so you can
leave your EFIS screens set up the way you want during an approach
and not screw with them. Then, #2, I've also bought Golden Eagle
Chart Case Express (and use Golden Eagle's free Flight Prep for
flight planning) on my motion tablet PC. Now THAT is some pretty
cool software! It allows me to do a couple things....A) Take my
tablet on vacations to save weight, and use at the hotel as a PC
for email, and also for flight planning, and B) to use in the cockpit
for not only ALL of my charts, both IFR and VFR, and approaches, but
as a backup GPS. With my little gum packaged sized Bluetooth GPS,
I get full track overlays on all my charts, even Low-alt Enroute,
and on the approach charts. So before the approach, I boot it
up, it has huge buttons to hit with the pen to load the approach,
and then I look at the approach chart and write the critical
data on my kneeboard sheet. Then, I turn the tablet over to
my wife who just watches the approach on that occasionally. Again,
you can see it very well on the CFS screens, so at that point it's
not really needed, but it's pretty cool to see in action. And,
being a tablet, you can put it where you want it, even in the back
seat for the passengers to monitor if you want. The kids use the
tablet to watch our track where we are sometimes. The kicker is,
for ALL of the charts in the US, the price easily beats trying to
buy sectionals, L-A Enroute, and approach plates, plus you get
WAC's and others. So, even if you didn't have an updated database,
you still have all your updated charts and can do what you want.
It's handy for me anyway. Sorry that was such a long topic, but, just
don't forget to add in the cost of the ChartView option and ask
about the subscription price on the charts, if you get it on an
EFIS. If a company did it all with free data, it wouldn't be so
bad, but that's an option that I think catches peoples attention
initially until they realize the cost involved. Database updates
to be legal (and you DO want to be legal, right?) aren't a cheap
thing...and in fact can make WSI weather look like a bargain.
Even paper chart subscriptions add up to hundreds of dollars
a year for IFR/VFR/Approach capability.
| Quote: |
7. Is there any reason (to your knowledge) to be considering a GMX200
with a Chelton (dual sport) setup. If I had a Chelton dual sport, it
seems the GMX200 is just a “nicer” moving map – more surface detail,
profile view, etc.
|
No, if you're getting a CFS, you I would skip the GMX200. It's an
expensive, but sweet and powerful box, but adding the options to your
CFS will be far cheaper than buying a GMX200 and adding the options
there. You're right that the map itself looks nicer on the GMX200...I
won't kid you there, but the CFS does a great job with it, and one of
the reasons the detail isn't there is to declutter. As you ascend,
it declutters obstructions, terrain, and more, just to give you
a more manageable screen. The CFS even has ways to show where radar
coverage is available, without making it a cluttered mess (using
brighter and darker areas). My original panel designs had multiple
GRT screens and an MX-20 with all the options. It was the options
and the costs of going that route that got so high. For those on
a budget, you can EASILY beat the CFS and many others in price, but
when you start to load up on the higher-end features, the amount of
"stuff" you get integrated onto a CFS MFD starts to make it very
cost effective against the other top systems. The question is, do
you really want the capabilities or not. You can fly IFR with a 6-pack,
so you can do it with a far less capable system too...but, some of
these features also add huge amounts of safety. Just read this
issue of Flying mag on Richard Collins's analysis of some Christmas
flying accidents....when I read that, my thought was, "man, with
the screens I'm flying, those same accidents would be pretty darn
hard to have happen unless you had some equipment failure." There's
a LOT helpful data there.
| Quote: | 8. One of Garmin’s G900 selling points/questions is… “Wonder why
few/none of the popular certified GA companies aren’t using CFS (which
is certified).” Having Cessna, Piper, Cirrus, Columbia, Diamond,
Mooney, etc all behind Garmin is perhaps a compelling argument to go
with Garmin and wait for them to “catch-up” on synthetic vision.
Thoughts/comments?
|
Well, for one thing, Garmin is like the Microsoft of the avionics
market. They are very hard for anyone to compete with. In fact, I'd
say that if they ever stuck their nose into the low or mid-end EFIS
market, they'd probably clobber ALL of the low and mid systems right
out of the marketplace. Second, CFS is not at all good at trying to
price their systems into a market. They price them based on their own
formulas. Unfortunately, it seems that means the price is on the higher
side. If you price a certified CFS system, you'll find it isn't cheap
at all. Then, consider the bones in the form of pricing discounts
that Garmin would be able to throw a major airplane manufacturer. Do
you think it's possible Garmin gives a discount to the companies that
agree to stick in their systems? If you've ever heard any info on
the pricing of Garmin systems, I think you'd belive so. I'm not at
all saying it's a bad system, but, companies make their decisions based
heavily on financial reasons, so I'd bet that's a big factor. Also,
I'd bet that's part of why you see a decline in the Avidyne stuff
in recent days...and why Avidyne is starting to think about the low
end market a bit more. IMHO, Avidyne makes a better, sweeter display
than Garmin, but, it seems like they also have trouble competing.
To me, that quote you listed above is just a marketing quote, used
to put FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt) into the buyer...it's a great
way to get them to 2nd guess what they're contemplating and just
go with the "safe" choice that everyone else does. CFS is certified,
but it's not a huge company....it's a small specialized company that's
a part of a huge company, and they'll live and die by their own products
successes and failures. To me, it seems that they've not done too bad,
since they have a well working product, that not only has a great
synthetic vision feature set, but managed to become certified while
doing it too. I agree, Garmin will probably catch up some day, but
how many approaches could you have in before that happens? I feel
so much safer flying in IMC over my old vacuum driven six-pack,
it's just ridiculous. I'm sure many people would say the same about
any EFIS system, but the Synthetic vision for some people could be
a huge benefit. I'm sure it'll be a popular future add-on for
most any EFIS vendor that wants to stay viable.
Sorry everyone that this was so long. Please understand that there are
people out there that do care to read it though. I get a lot of
personal emails, and since this was asked on-list, the reply may
benefit a few people who are interested other than just Rick.
Tim
| Quote: | Sorry for all the “rookie” questions.
Rick
*
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GenGrumpy(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:54 pm Post subject: EFIS Bewilderment - CFS questions |
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For what its worth, my assessment of the Cheltons is pretty much in line with Tim's.
I am very happy with how it is mechanized (very simple to operate) and with a lot of prior flying time in uncle Sam's best, these Cheltons come closest to what the fast guys are using these days......
Only Garmin's I have in my plane are 2 SL-30's and the GTX 327.
grumpy
N184JM
See what's free at AOL.com.
[quote][b]
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MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:04 pm Post subject: EFIS Bewilderment - CFS questions |
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Tim Olson wrote:
| Quote: |
Sorry if this reply seems to be a bandwidth waster to some. If you have
no interest in the reply, just delete now.
Jack, thanks for opening the door here. Rick, thanks for detailing it
|
out. Tim, thanks for sharing the experience. Everyone, thanks for the
rest of the thread.
Bandwidth is rarely spent so well.
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