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Kick back is back

 
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air.guerner(at)wanadoo.fr
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 12:09 pm    Post subject: Kick back is back Reply with quote

In spite of having the heavy duty starter, a 6 months old 28 Amp-hour battery, an ignition switch wired so that only one channel is energized during starting, pulling the choke only after a few prop turns, I experienced the infamous kick back again last week, during a few degrees above freezing cold start.

To help solving this problem, I am thinking at replacing the low cost battery by a high performance one such as the Odyssey or Genesis. Any suggestion on where to find this sort of batteries in Europe ?

Remi Guerner

F-PGKL, XS S/N395 monowheel, 288 hours on a 914 + 91 hours since fitted with the 912S. Airmaster prop ordered


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Ivor Phillips



Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 253
Location: London UK

PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 12:39 pm    Post subject: Kick back is back Reply with quote

Hi Remi
I got mine Odyssey pc 680 from

http://www.knightbatteries.com/

Ivor Phillips

Quote:
To help solving this problem, I am thinking at replacing the low cost
battery by a high performance one such as the Odyssey or Genesis. Any
suggestion on where to find this sort of batteries in Europe ?

Remi Guerner


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jeanphilippeneel(at)yahoo
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 12:40 pm    Post subject: Kick back is back Reply with quote

Salut Remi
S'agit il de battements generants des vibrations importantes empechant le demarrage?

JP Neel F-PSLH 650h


Rmi Guerner <air.guerner(at)wanadoo.fr> a crit :

In spite of having the heavy duty starter, a 6 months old 28 Amp-hour battery, an ignition switch wired so that only one channel is energized during starting, pulling the choke only after a few prop turns, I experienced the infamous kick back again last week, during a few degrees above freezing cold start.

To help solving this problem, I am thinking at replacing the low cost battery by a high performance one such as the Odyssey or Genesis. Any suggestion on where to find this sort of batteries in Europe ?

Remi Guerner

F-PGKL, XS S/N395 monowheel, 288 hours on a 914 + 91 hours since fitted with the 912S. Airmaster prop ordered


---------------------------------


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Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 12:55 pm    Post subject: Kick back is back Reply with quote

NEEL Jean Philippe a crit :

Quote:


Salut Remi
S'agit il de battements generants des vibrations importantes empechant le demarrage?




I believe kickback is English for "retour". The prop is thrown backwards
a few degrees, or even a turn or so.

Regards,
Gilles Thesee
Grenoble, France
http://contrails.free.fr


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rholder(at)avnet.co.uk
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 1:02 pm    Post subject: Kick back is back Reply with quote

Quote:
In spite of having the heavy duty starter, a 6 months
old 28 Amp-hour battery, an ignition switch wired so
that only one channel is energized during starting,
pulling the choke only after a few prop turns, I
experienced the infamous kick back again last week,
during a few degrees above freezing cold start.

To help solving this problem, I am thinking at
replacing the low cost battery by a high performance
one such as the Odyssey or Genesis. Any suggestion on
where to find this sort of batteries in Europe ?

Remi Guerner


I also have had two instances of kickback on the first
turn of the starter switch. But they were 2 degree C days so
I thought it was OK. If it happens during the summer I
will be concerned !

Do you turn the engine over a few blades by hand first
(MAGS OFF !) to reduce the friction level in there ?

I am not sure about only putting one magneto on at start
time. If this IS of benefit perhaps you could try changing
over the earth connections under the cowling to see if the
magneto you are NOT using should really be the one you ARE
using.

My battery is a 12 AHr Red Top and when I fitted it 18
months ago in place of the 17 AHr normal type battery it
made not a fraction of difference to the non-starting I
was experiencing then.

Richard


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paul.mcallister



Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 177
Location: Waukesha, WI USA

PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 1:55 pm    Post subject: Kick back is back Reply with quote

Remi,

I am afraid to tell you this but I replaced my cheap battery with an Odyssey
and it made absolutely no difference to my kick back problems.

Winters in the mid west of the US are very cold, and I will often fly on
days of minus 10c to minus 15c. I put an engine pre heater on my Rotax and
I didn't get a kick back all winter.

Paul


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ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 3:54 pm    Post subject: Kick back is back Reply with quote

Hi! Remi
Jerry Davis of Linhurst Touchdown my help with the battery he has the
"Red Top" which is comparable with the Odyssey. LTS(at)avnet.co.uk
I'm not a Rotax "Buff" but "me thinks" you may be into sprag clutch
problems?

Bob Harrison G-PTAG Europa MKI/Jabiru3000

--


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jeanphilippeneel(at)yahoo
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 10:52 pm    Post subject: Kick back is back Reply with quote

Gilles
Faut il comprendre qu'en fin de phase demarrage l'helice serait capble d'un retour arriere de quelques degrs voire d'un tour complet?
Cela me parait impossible! Il ne peut pas y avoir d'auto allumage dans cette phase froid.
Par contre je connais bien le phenomene de couplage vibratoire et de battement entre l'helice et le moteur en phase de demmarrage du au "slipper clutch" dont le couple friction s'est affaiblit.
Classiquement le phenomene apparait par temps froid.

JP Neel F-PSLH

Gilles Thesee <Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-grenoble.fr> a crit :


NEEL Jean Philippe a crit :

Quote:


Salut Remi
S'agit il de battements generants des vibrations importantes empechant le demarrage?




I believe kickback is English for "retour". The prop is thrown backwards
a few degrees, or even a turn or so.

Regards,
Gilles Thesee
Grenoble, France
http://contrails.free.fr



---------------------------------


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air.guerner(at)wanadoo.fr
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 12:45 pm    Post subject: Kick back is back Reply with quote

Salut Jean Philippe,

Je repond en anglais pour que tous en profitent. C=E2=80=99est mieux, n=E2=80=99est il pas ?
The infamous kick back happens when the first cylinder to ignite does so before reaching top dead center (TDC =3D PMH in french) which is not unlikely with the spark advance set, by design, at 4 degrees before TDC, and not adjustable. Because the prop is driven through the slip clutch, there is no flywheel effect and the crankshaft stops immediately. Then the prop uses its own inertia to turn up to 30 degrees (slip clutch backlash) and violently hurts the dog. It is so violent that it can damage your exhaust, carburettor flanges and engine mount altogether, and possibly the engine itself. This happens mainly with the bigger displacement and higher compression 912S, but I experienced it once or twice with the 914 too. Rotax allegedly solved the issue with a more powerful starter motor, but clearly the problem is still there with the new starter motor.

Remi Guerner

F-PGKL, XS S/N395 monowheel, 288 hours on a 914 + 91 hours since fitted with the 912S.
From: NEEL Jean Philippe <jeanphilippeneel(at)yahoo.fr>
Subject: RE: Kick back is back



Salut Remi
S'agit il de battements generants des vibrations importantes empechant le demarrage?

JP Neel F-PSLH 650h
Rmi Guerner <air.guerner(at)wanadoo.fr> a crit :

In spite of having the heavy duty starter, a 6 months old 28 Amp-hour battery,
an ignition switch wired so that only one channel is energized during starting,
pulling the choke only after a few prop turns, I experienced the infamous kick
back again last week, during a few degrees above freezing cold start.

To help solving this problem, I am thinking at replacing the low cost battery by
a high performance one such as the Odyssey or Genesis. Any suggestion on where
to find this sort of batteries in Europe ?

Remi Guerner


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william(at)wrmills.plus.c
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 11:01 pm    Post subject: Kick back is back Reply with quote

Remi, Jean Philippe, and All,

To try to minimise the effect Remi has described, I have developed a
technique as part of my pre-flight walk-around. When I get to the business
end, I turn the prop several times in the normal direction of rotation and
then when it feels freed-up, I rotate it backwards to meet the compression
and at the same time, take up the 30 degs slack in the slipper clutch. I am
sure this technique helps and the amount of reverse rotation is not enough
to affect the oil priming. The other action I took when I replaced my 912
with a 912S, was to increase the magneto gaps to 0.020" (from 0.016"), which
has the effect of slightly reducing the amount of retardation at tick-over,
but probably has a minimal effect at >4,000 RPM. It also makes the
tick-over run much more smoothly. The increase of magneto gap was not my
idea, but it came from a Brit with well over 1,000 hours in Europas. If
anyone knows why Rotax set the mags at 0.012 to 0.016, please let me know.
(Apart from selling more sprag clutches, of course!)

Best wishes,
William

---


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