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Kick back is back

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air.guerner(at)wanadoo.fr
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 12:09 pm Post subject: Kick back is back

In spite of having the heavy duty starter, a 6 months old 28 Amp-hour battery, an ignition switch wired so that only one channel is energized during starting, pulling the choke only after a few prop turns, I experienced the infamous kick back again last week, during a few degrees above freezing cold start.

 

To help solving this problem, I am thinking at replacing the low cost battery by a high performance one such as the Odyssey or Genesis.  Any suggestion on where to find this sort of batteries in Europe ? 

 

Remi Guerner

 

F-PGKL, XS S/N395 monowheel,   288 hours on a 914 + 91 hours since fitted with the 912S. Airmaster prop ordered

Ivor Phillips

Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 253
Location: London UK

Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 12:39 pm Post subject: Kick back is back

Hi Remi

I got mine  Odyssey pc 680 from



http://www.knightbatteries.com/



Ivor Phillips



 	  Quote: 	
		   To help solving this problem, I am thinking at replacing the low cost 

 battery by a high performance one such as the Odyssey or Genesis.  Any 

 suggestion on where to find this sort of batteries in Europe ?



 Remi Guerner

jeanphilippeneel(at)yahoo
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 12:40 pm Post subject: Kick back is back

Salut Remi

  S'agit il de battements generants des vibrations importantes empechant le demarrage?

   

  JP Neel F-PSLH 650h

  



Rmi Guerner <air.guerner(at)wanadoo.fr> a crit :

  

In spite of having the heavy duty starter, a 6 months old 28 Amp-hour battery, an ignition switch wired so that only one channel is energized during starting, pulling the choke only after a few prop turns, I experienced the infamous kick back again last week, during a few degrees above freezing cold start.



To help solving this problem, I am thinking at replacing the low cost battery by a high performance one such as the Odyssey or Genesis. Any suggestion on where to find this sort of batteries in Europe ? 



Remi Guerner



F-PGKL, XS S/N395 monowheel, 288 hours on a 914 + 91 hours since fitted with the 912S. Airmaster prop ordered



		

---------------------------------

Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 12:55 pm Post subject: Kick back is back

NEEL Jean Philippe a crit :



 	  Quote: 	
		  



Salut Remi

  S'agit il de battements generants des vibrations importantes empechant le demarrage?

   

  




	


I believe kickback is English for "retour". The prop is thrown backwards 

a few degrees, or even a turn or so.



Regards,

Gilles Thesee

Grenoble, France

http://contrails.free.fr

rholder(at)avnet.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 1:02 pm Post subject: Kick back is back

 	  Quote: 	
		   In spite of having the heavy duty starter, a 6 months

 old 28 Amp-hour battery, an ignition switch wired so

 that only one channel is energized during starting,

 pulling the choke only after a few prop turns, I

 experienced the infamous kick back again last week,

 during a few degrees above freezing cold start.

 

 To help solving this problem, I am thinking at

 replacing the low cost battery by a high performance

 one such as the Odyssey or Genesis.  Any suggestion on

 where to find this sort of batteries in Europe ?

 

 Remi Guerner

 


	


I also have had two instances of kickback on the first

turn of the starter switch. But they were  2 degree C days so

I thought it was OK. If it happens during the summer I

will be concerned !



Do you turn the engine over a few blades by hand first

(MAGS OFF !) to reduce the friction level in there ?



I am not sure about only putting one magneto on at start

time. If this IS of benefit perhaps you could try changing

over the earth connections under the cowling to see if the

magneto you are NOT using should really be the one you ARE

using.



My battery is a 12 AHr Red Top and when I fitted it 18

months ago in place of the 17 AHr normal type battery it

made not a fraction of difference to the non-starting I

was experiencing then.



Richard

paul.mcallister

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 177
Location: Waukesha, WI USA

Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 1:55 pm Post subject: Kick back is back

Remi,



I am afraid to tell you this but I replaced my cheap battery with an Odyssey

and it made absolutely no difference to my kick back problems.



Winters in the mid west of the US are very cold,  and I will often fly on

days of minus 10c to minus 15c.  I put an engine pre heater on my Rotax and

I didn't get a kick back all winter.



Paul

ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 3:54 pm Post subject: Kick back is back

Hi! Remi

Jerry Davis of Linhurst Touchdown my help with the battery he has the

"Red Top" which is comparable with the Odyssey.   LTS(at)avnet.co.uk

I'm not a Rotax "Buff" but "me thinks" you may be into sprag clutch

problems?



Bob Harrison G-PTAG Europa MKI/Jabiru3000 



--

jeanphilippeneel(at)yahoo
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 10:52 pm Post subject: Kick back is back

Gilles

  Faut il comprendre qu'en fin de phase demarrage l'helice serait capble d'un retour arriere de quelques degrs voire d'un tour complet?

  Cela me parait impossible! Il ne peut pas y avoir d'auto allumage dans cette phase  froid.

  Par contre je connais bien le phenomene de couplage vibratoire et de battement entre l'helice et le moteur en phase de demmarrage du au "slipper clutch" dont le couple friction s'est affaiblit.

Classiquement le phenomene apparait par temps froid.

   

  JP Neel   F-PSLH



Gilles Thesee <Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-grenoble.fr> a crit :

  



NEEL Jean Philippe a crit :



 	  Quote: 	
		  



Salut Remi

 S'agit il de battements generants des vibrations importantes empechant le demarrage?

 

 




	


I believe kickback is English for "retour". The prop is thrown backwards 

a few degrees, or even a turn or so.



Regards,

Gilles Thesee

Grenoble, France

http://contrails.free.fr





		

---------------------------------

air.guerner(at)wanadoo.fr
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 12:45 pm Post subject: Kick back is back

Salut Jean Philippe,



Je repond en anglais pour que tous en profitent. C=E2=80=99est mieux, n=E2=80=99est il pas ?

The infamous kick back happens when the first cylinder to ignite does so before reaching top dead center (TDC =3D PMH in french) which is not unlikely with the spark advance set, by design, at 4 degrees before TDC, and not adjustable. Because the prop is driven through the slip clutch, there is no flywheel effect and the crankshaft stops immediately. Then the prop uses its own inertia to turn up to 30 degrees (slip clutch backlash) and violently hurts the dog. It is so violent that it can damage your exhaust, carburettor flanges and  engine mount altogether, and possibly the engine itself. This happens mainly with the bigger displacement and higher compression 912S, but I experienced it once or twice with the 914 too. Rotax allegedly solved the issue with a more powerful starter motor, but clearly the problem is still there with the new starter motor.



Remi Guerner



F-PGKL, XS S/N395 monowheel,   288 hours on a 914 + 91 hours since fitted with the 912S.

From: NEEL Jean Philippe <jeanphilippeneel(at)yahoo.fr>

Subject: RE: Kick back is back






Salut Remi

 S'agit il de battements generants des vibrations importantes empechant le demarrage?

 

 JP Neel F-PSLH 650h

Rmi Guerner <air.guerner(at)wanadoo.fr> a crit :

 

In spite of having the heavy duty starter, a 6 months old 28 Amp-hour battery,

an ignition switch wired so that only one channel is energized during starting,

pulling the choke only after a few prop turns, I experienced the infamous kick

back again last week, during a few degrees above freezing cold start.



To help solving this problem, I am thinking at replacing the low cost battery by

a high performance one such as the Odyssey or Genesis. Any suggestion on where

to find this sort of batteries in Europe ?



Remi Guerner

william(at)wrmills.plus.c
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 11:01 pm Post subject: Kick back is back

Remi, Jean Philippe, and All,



To try to minimise the effect Remi has described, I have developed a 

technique as part of my pre-flight walk-around.  When I get to the business 

end, I turn the prop several times in the normal direction of rotation and 

then when it feels freed-up, I rotate it backwards to meet the compression 

and at the same time, take up the 30 degs slack in the slipper clutch.  I am 

sure this technique helps and the amount of reverse rotation is not enough 

to affect the oil priming.  The other action I took when I replaced my 912 

with a 912S, was to increase the magneto gaps to 0.020" (from 0.016"), which 

has the effect of slightly reducing the amount of retardation at tick-over, 

but probably has a minimal effect at >4,000 RPM.  It also makes the 

tick-over run much more smoothly.  The increase of magneto gap was not my 

idea, but it came from a Brit with well over 1,000 hours in Europas.  If 

anyone knows why Rotax set the mags at 0.012 to 0.016, please let me know. 

(Apart from selling more sprag clutches, of course!)



Best wishes,

William



---

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