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Engine Running Rough
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esmith6(at)satx.rr.com
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 5:26 pm    Post subject: Engine Running Rough Reply with quote

Please don't all of you shoot me at once................I have a suggestion for all of you who think your "rough" engine may be caused by internal problems...Before you spend a lot of time, labor, and money, I would install new spark plugs, new spark plug wires, and check the mags if you have mags...(I know almost all of you did this first, but maybe someone out there didn't?)...Above all, have a Pro. prop shop BALANCE your PROP while it is on the aircraft.

I thought I had a problem with many of the symptoms some of you mentioned, then had that rascal prop balanced, and I really have trouble believing it is the same aircraft, it is sooo smooth, why didn't I have that done many hours ago...It cut the "worry factor" by at least 60%...........Hope I didn't insult anyone........................................CHEERS!!!!

Gene Smith
RV-4
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w_sweet(at)comcast.net
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 8:06 pm    Post subject: Engine Running Rough Reply with quote

I cannot agree more; this has been exactly my experience with my MustangII. Particularily aircraft standard spark plugs; seems a lead fouled plug makes a Lycoming so sick, it runs as if two cylinders went on vacation.
With CDI's and auto plugs (why would anyone run mags and "those plug"), smooth is the operative word. Smile))
Wayne
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Float Flyr



Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 7:48 am    Post subject: Engine Running Rough Reply with quote

The reasons are laid out, basically for passenger carrying aircraft. They require redundancy and separate powered ignition systems that won't go black in the event of a catastrophic electrical problem. On the other hand yes there are some great CDI ignitions that help the engines run better than they were designed to. For amateur built aircraft I doubt there is anything better.



Noel [quote]
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archie97(at)earthlink.net
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 7:10 pm    Post subject: Engine Running Rough Reply with quote

Without bursting bubbles. or offending the beaurocratic FAA,
there is nothing better currently for any internal combustion engine
than electronic ignition.
Just try firing a .080 gap plug with a current magneto.(just one reason)
Archie Frangoudis
Archie's Racing Service
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 7:24 pm    Post subject: Engine Running Rough Reply with quote

Forgot to mention, dual CDI systems, as in my case, usually have a small battery charging from the alternator, dedicated solely to one CDI. In my plane there is a switch that in the event of primary buss failure (alternator failure is one example), this battery will run the one CDI. I have lost an alternator 45 minutes outbound from my home base. After turning off all but the transponder, the main batter still had 12.4 volts after return to home base and the backup was not needed. If one cannot find an airport in an hour flight time, then the backup will extend the range beyond a reasonable time. Of course if a buss were to fail, then the backup would power the CDI, again in my case for at least two hours. Oh, one other item, mag checks demonstrate that only one CDI is really needed, since no RPM drop is experienced when one CDI is turned off. Another checklist item; warn any right-seat pilot that no "mag drop" does not mean trouble; it means things are working fine.
Wayne
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apilot2(at)gmail.com
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 8:50 pm    Post subject: Engine Running Rough Reply with quote

Depends on your definition of better. There isn't an electronic
ignition made that will fire without a power source. Lose your
electrics and the engine WILL quit. OK in a car, not okay in a plane.
A magneto provides plenty of voltage to fire the proper gaps for
aircraft plugs at all engine speeds above idle. Bureaucracy has
nothing to do with it. Reliability is the prime issue with aircraft,
and there simply isn't an ignition made that is more reliable than a
pair of magnetos when you consider electrical failure a reasonable
possibility.

On 2/18/07, Archie <archie97(at)earthlink.net> wrote:
[quote]

Without bursting bubbles. or offending the beaurocratic FAA,
there is nothing better currently for any internal combustion engine
than electronic ignition.
Just try firing a .080 gap plug with a current magneto.(just one reason)
Archie Frangoudis
Archie's Racing Service

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grant.piper(at)bigpond.co
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 12:14 am    Post subject: Engine Running Rough Reply with quote

Electronic ignition is OK,but try hand-swinging when the battery is flat or
the starter is broken!

Also, if you get no 'mag drop' when running an EI setup, then what is the
benefit of dual EI? Why not just keep one mag and have one EI, then there
is no need for dual busses, the extra complexity and associated weight etc.
Just my simple farmer way of thinking of things....

Grant Piper
RV-4 VH-PIO
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archie97(at)earthlink.net
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 4:48 am    Post subject: Engine Running Rough Reply with quote

With all due respect to your commentary, sir, I knew
some replies would come from traditionalists, and I concur
with your statements..
I will not deal with the semantics associated with such,
but suffice it to simply say read my original message carefully.
If people did not forward think in automotive, we would all
still be driving model "T"'s.
End.
Archie Frangoudis
Archie's Racing Service

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Float Flyr



Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 5:06 am    Post subject: Engine Running Rough Reply with quote

The answer from the FAA I'll bet would be something like try firing a .018 plug with a CDI that has no power supply.

The best answer is of course one magneto and one CDI. That would give you a limp home mode in case of a problem with the CDI. BTW has anyone ever heard of a problem with a CDI while in use??? I haven't.

Noel [quote]
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jrccea(at)bellsouth.net
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 5:48 am    Post subject: Engine Running Rough Reply with quote

No. But, I've had total power failures on two occasions.....
Was grateful for mags at the time.
I also fly a non-electric cub a good bit of the time, and think that might present a problem for CDI.
[quote] BTW has anyone ever heard of a problem with a CDI while in use??? I haven't.

Noel[b]


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apilot2(at)gmail.com
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 6:13 am    Post subject: Engine Running Rough Reply with quote

Yeah, right. I was using CD ignition on a car 35 years ago(and it
failed within 2 years). Show me an electronic ignition that is self
powered and stone reliable and I'll come over to your side. So far,
the automotive technology that has proven superior for aircraft, sum
total, will fit in a C-150. Porsche tried and failed. Dozens have
tried the aluminum Chevy, and failed. VW, Corvair, Subaru...all niche
curiosities that haven't made it to mainstream. Face it. There isn't
an electronic ignition that passes the dead battery test. Until that
is possible, you are just bandaiding around the problem with dual
buses and other backups.

On 2/19/07, Archie <archie97(at)earthlink.net> wrote:
[quote]

With all due respect to your commentary, sir, I knew
some replies would come from traditionalists, and I concur
with your statements..
I will not deal with the semantics associated with such,
but suffice it to simply say read my original message carefully.
If people did not forward think in automotive, we would all
still be driving model "T"'s.
End.
Archie Frangoudis
Archie's Racing Service

---


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apilot2(at)gmail.com
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 6:14 am    Post subject: Engine Running Rough Reply with quote

Yes. I had one on my car years ago. It flat failed and left me
stranded. Something inside the box fried.

On 2/19/07, Noel Loveys <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca> wrote:
[quote]

The answer from the FAA I'll bet would be something like try firing a .018
plug with a CDI that has no power supply.

The best answer is of course one magneto and one CDI. That would give you a
limp home mode in case of a problem with the CDI. BTW has anyone ever heard
of a problem with a CDI while in use??? I haven't.

Noel
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w_sweet(at)comcast.net
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 6:20 am    Post subject: Engine Running Rough Reply with quote

I had one mag and one CDI once and it worked OK. But that means keeping
those inferior aircraft plugs clean and replacing at ~$20 each. WHY? My auto
plugs cost $2.50 each and are replaced every 75 hours or so. Never gap the
plugs; why bother at those prices. Also, the power is somewhat better with
two CDI according to Klaus Savior of LSE. I cannot confirm that.
For those that have never sat behind a Lycoming running CDI's, if you do get
a chance someday, ask the owner for a ride. The smoothness of the engine
will surprise you.
Wayne

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 6:21 am    Post subject: Engine Running Rough Reply with quote

See my previous post.
Wayne

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 7:14 am    Post subject: Engine Running Rough Reply with quote

You are confusing CDI's of today with 35 years ago. First, cars 35 years ago
were junk compared to cars of today. All cars today have electronic ignition
systems; i.e. CDI's.
Also the only failures I have had with alternators in my MustangII were from
wire terminal failures, partly my fault for not supporting the B-wire or the
field wire close the terminal. In 6000 hours of flying "store bought"
airplanes only had one failure (at night in a Cardinal) that cause a
complete electrical failure. If that were to happen in my plane, I would
still be flying 2 hours after the failure because of the backup battery.
BTW, I had a mag go south because of points coming apart after only 24 hours
in service; the maintenance facility that overhauled the mag said, "That
happens sometimes". WHAT!!! REALLY!!!!
Lessons learned 35 years ago no longer apply today.
Wayne

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Hopperdhh(at)aol.com
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 7:24 am    Post subject: Engine Running Rough Reply with quote

You will find that very few production cars today have Capacitor Discharge Ignition systems. Most systems are still inductive discharge switched by a transistor. (Transistors come in several forms including Bipolar, FET and IGBT.) This system is much simpler and more reliable than a CDI system. CDI systems are used for competition engines, though.

Dan Hopper
RV-7A
15 years associated with ignition design for GM including Indy CDI systems.
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mlas(at)cox.net
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 7:50 am    Post subject: Engine Running Rough Reply with quote

So what should I do with my Airbus 320? It needs electric to run as do
all the new fadec powered jet engine systems. They hide this by
providing internal generators, kind of sound a little like the magneto
concept. But it's not!

Mike

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mlas(at)cox.net
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 7:58 am    Post subject: Engine Running Rough Reply with quote

Well, that's why airplanes have TWO ignition systems.... If you fly
long enough you too will have a mag. failure. I have had more than 12
mags. fail, fortunately not at the same time.

Mike

Lancair Legacy w/dual LSE Plasma III ignitions and dual independent
buses "boy it's smooth; I know it will be smoother when they quit. Ant
the fuel specifics are good too."

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Float Flyr



Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 8:53 am    Post subject: Engine Running Rough Reply with quote

That would qualify as a problem with a CDI in use for me.

What would you think of having one CDI and one back up magneto? Possibly using different plugs.



Noel [quote]
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 8:59 am    Post subject: Engine Running Rough Reply with quote

NASCAR runs some type of EI. I have noticed 2 ea. MSD units in some of the TV shots. Do you reckon there is a reason for that ? I know they are not using 2 sparkplugs per chamber.
Monty Barrett

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