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james.s.clark(at)comcast.
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 5:59 pm Post subject: Introduction To List

Hello all,



My name is Jim Clark and I would like to introduce myself to your  

wonderful online community. I have been lurking for ~10 weeks now and  

am finally brave enough to say hello. I'm addicted.



I, in partnership with a close colleague at work, have decided to  

undertake this monumental project. I have been planning and budgeting  

for several months and am still waffling on what may seem to you guys  

as a very important fundamental decision: which kit RV-7 or RV-10.



First a brief background on my goals/budget for this project. Knowing  

this info may elicit some targeted advice from you folks:



First: although I haven't finalized an airframe decision, the  

following is pretty firmed up:

3 screen GRT EFIS / EM / MFD with internal WAAS & 5 Hz & probably  

dual AHRS. (Want the chelton 2/3 screen but can't afford it).

Garmin GTX330 with TIS

Garmin SL30 Nav/Com

8000 audio panel

Panel mount GPS & other comm undecided.

New engine, & redundancy in most areas.

Cross country from east coast to midwest and occasional CA trips.



I am finishing up my IFR rating and absolutely cannot spend more than  

150k over the next 2 years. With a strong desire for moderate IFR  

capability and redundancy and nice avionics, I am finding myself  

having to cut costs somewhere. My question is this: Is it crazy to  

save 25k by choosing the RV-7 over the RV-10? I know it seems strange  

to pick everything but the airframe first, but those are my  

priorities (IFR & avionics first).



I want quickbuild and with ~32k worth of avionics, the RV-10 is  

pushing 140k with a new 260 HP. I'd like to hear your thoughts,  

should I get the RV-10 and initially save costs in the avionics area  

by leaving blank panel area on the right side? I am single, but have  

a strong desire to take more than 1 friend along on camping / biking  

trips. My partner in this project is a coworker and luckily also a  

neighbor. He has a family of 4.



I understand to both get Repairman certs we will need to purchase as  

an LLC/corp is this right?



How much more gas / hr do you think the RV-10 is vs the RV-7. Are  

there any other extra OPERATING expenses for the RV-10 over the RV-7  

that I am misssing.



Thanks in advance for any responses. I apologize for the longwinded  

introduction. I can hardly contain my excitement, but I am cautiously  

approaching this project.



Cheers,

-Jim Clark

RV-Story DVD in hand and...

On the fence...

rv10builder(at)verizon.ne
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 6:55 pm Post subject: Introduction To List

It's a matter of a 2 seater or 4 seater. Have a family of 4? want to fly 2 

of them at once than the 7 won't work, want more camping space; the RV-10 

back seat folds down. Going to fly solo everywhere the 7 is more than 

enough, etc.



I would ask yourself what your mission is first than determine the avionics. 

There is a whole lot of resources on all of this in the EAA Homebuilders 

link.( http://www.eaa.org/education/homebuilt_aircraft.html )  If your a 

current EAA member- check out all the stages covered and the FAQ under each. 

You're going to burn more fuel in the RV-10 simply because it's a slightly 

larger plane that uses a larger engine, but again..mission. Makes no 

difference if the RV-7 has better MPG and everything else if you want to 

carry more than 1 passenger.

As far as the repairman's cert- 1 per person per plane:

from the EAA site: When a Chapter (or school, club, or partnership) builds 

an aircraft, only one individual will be considered for a Repairman 

Certificate for each aircraft built. Typically, the designated project 

leader will be the one who applies for the Repairman Certificate. The 

project leader should also be the on who signs for the airworthiness of the 

aircraft on FAA Form 8130-6 block III.



Best of success with this decision.



Pascal



---

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 6:58 pm Post subject: Introduction To List

Jim, add the RV-9 to your evaluation.  The wing and tail give similar

flight performance as the RV-10 to a cruiser/IFR platform.  If you

wanted a nimble hot-rod then the RV-7A or RV-7 would be better "Mission

Suitable".  Read the archives on how the path to having EFIS and

multi-screen EFIS was made more difficult by the placement of support

ribs, in their design.



A little research is going to help you a lot in your decision.  The

first step is selecting the journey.  You are now well on your way.  You

will find a lot of support in anything you chose. JMHO.



Your absolute needs to be balanced with the reality of builders that are

now flying the RV-10 which meets your mission.  Both the kit and the

engine continue to reflect the Time Value of Money.  A quick build well

help you reach your absolute much sooner.  Out of Money.  Only one of

you will get a Repairman Certificate.  Figure that out early. If your

partner must have 4 POB then you better do a lean budget and get a firm

grip. Fuel burn at 12.5gph at 65% is a good benchmark for fuel

consumption.  An IO-360 or 400 is not going to push an RV-10.  Come on

over the grass is always Green and in need of cutting.



Help make us 1,000 kits strong.



John Cox

#40600

--

jhasbrouck(at)woh.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 7:15 pm Post subject: Introduction To List

Jim,

    I've always been a fan of Van's aircraft but, at 6' 3", I found the two 

place RV's tight in the headroom department.  The -10 was a better "fit" for 

me. It impresses me as a great, comfortable cross country plane with room to 

stretch.  I also want to take friends along on occasion and the -10 is 

obviously better for that mission than the -7.  I'm instrument rated but 

will probably equip my plane simply at first with the option to upgrade. 

I'm designing the panel with that in mind.



     A Lycoming IO-360 will burn 10 GPH in cruise.  That's what you'd 

probably use in the -7.  The IO-540 in the -10 will burn 12 to 15 GPH in 

cruise ( check Tim's site for better numbers) multiply the difference by 

$4.50/gal avgas to get a rough idea if increased fuel costs.  Speeds are 

close enough for either so no advantage one way or the other.  When I owned 

factory built planes I'd figure the total hourly operating cost to be 3X the 

hourly fuel cost and it seemed to work well for 100 hours/year minimum. 

Nowadays 4X the hourly fuel cost may be more appropriate.  In reality I 

think you'll fly the -10 for  more than the -7 but the mission capablities 

are greater with the -10. I think the additional cost are worth the greater 

flexability.



     Don't jump too quickly (pardon the pun) into the quickbuild options. 

I'm going standard kits all the way and have progressed very quickly using 

only the spare time I have after work and weekends.  Most of that working on 

my own.  I decided to save the bucks I'd have spent on the quickbuild and 

put it into other areas of the plane.



     I'm sure you'll get a lot of advice from the group, just my $.02 worth.



John Hasbrouck

#40264

jesse(at)saintaviation.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 8:10 pm Post subject: Introduction To List

I will answer below a little.



Jesse Saint

Saint Aviation, Inc.

jesse(at)saintaviation.com

www.saintaviation.com

Cell: 352-427-0285

Fax: 815-377-3694

--

armywrights(at)adelphia.n
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 8:16 pm Post subject: Introduction To List

Family of 4 is your neighbor?  Either commit now to $150K split 2 ways or

find another partner who wants an RV-7.  If you go with the -7 I have a

feeling the neighbor will want the -10 halfway through the project and leave

you holding the 100% bag.



Even taking 1 friend on your stated trips, the -10 will be a nice addition

for the large-sized gear you'll have to take, but that's a $30k question

you'll have to answer. How much camping/biking gear can you rent locally for

$30k over the next 10 years, but that you're not familiar with and changes

each time you go?



Save money and go with the -10: Use a 2 screen GRT setup with a DA-10 Dynon

backup for unrelated redundancy, or at least go with an overhauled motor.

You'll save at least $10-20K right there on the motor.



Rob Wright

-10 QB #392

Trying to stay under $150K with G-900X in the plans (overhauled motor with

new cyl's, Hartzell Prop, no other major mods)....



--

apilot2(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 8:58 pm Post subject: Introduction To List

I'm with others on cut back on your avionics. I don't believe you

mentioned an autopilot. Absolutely get at least a wing leveler or

better. Dump the 330 transponder. TIS will slowly go away and there

are better, cheaper ways to get traffic. That alone will get you

started on an autopilot. Look to other sources than Van's for a custom

built engine for less money.

Your missions really speak 4 place. You aren't carrying enough baggage

to go coast to coast with a pax in a two place with much comfort.

Especially not with any form of paper charts. Consider 2 screen rather

than three, and some 2 1/4 backup steam gauges..you will lose

electrics some time. Consider 496 in a panel mount for nav backup.



On 2/8/07, Rob Wright <armywrights(at)adelphia.net> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Family of 4 is your neighbor?  Either commit now to $150K split 2 ways or

 find another partner who wants an RV-7.  If you go with the -7 I have a

 feeling the neighbor will want the -10 halfway through the project and leave

 you holding the 100% bag.



 Even taking 1 friend on your stated trips, the -10 will be a nice addition

 for the large-sized gear you'll have to take, but that's a $30k question

 you'll have to answer. How much camping/biking gear can you rent locally for

 $30k over the next 10 years, but that you're not familiar with and changes

 each time you go?

 First: although I haven't finalized an airframe decision, the

 following is pretty firmed up:

 3 screen GRT EFIS / EM / MFD with internal WAAS & 5 Hz & probably

 dual AHRS. (Want the chelton 2/3 screen but can't afford it).

 Garmin GTX330 with TIS

 Garmin SL30 Nav/Com

 8000 audio panel

 Panel mount GPS & other comm undecided.

 New engine, & redundancy in most areas.

 Cross country from east coast to midwest and occasional CA trips.

Deems Davis

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 925

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 9:15 pm Post subject: Introduction To List

Jim. congratulations on having made the decision to build your own 

airplane. Sticking with the RV series of planes will provide you a 

support system and the benefits of engineering derived from a fleet of 

flying planes that totals nearly 5000 !. (That's more than either 

Columbia or Cirus) Doing so you will join a group of 

motivated,opinionated, and enthusiastic people that do something that 

others think impossible.

Now at the risk of p*****g you off. I think you're going about the 

decision from the wrong end. It's easy to get enamored with the 'electro 

whizzies/ (Believe me I know I've got a panel full of them!!!!). 

BUT----- unless you're going to quit work and build 10 hours a day every 

day, this project is going to take you at least a couple of years. (I've 

quit work, work 4-6 hours on the plane every day and ITS STILL going to 

take me over 2 years to finish!!!!) In that time frame the list of 

viable/and affordable electro wizzies will very likely change. The neat 

thing about building these planes is that one of the easiest things to 

change after you've built the plane is the panel itself. WITHOUT A DOUBT 

the MOST DIFFICULT thing to change would be to add 2 more seats to a 2 

seat airplane!!!!!.

So.... Think seriously about whether 2 or 4 seats will suit the type of 

flying you and your partner will be doing. that's the 1st step to 

defining your mission. If it's 4 Stop cause you won't find a better 4 

place plane than the -10. If its 2, then decide whether Acro is 

important to you or not, if not look (at) a -9, if it is then decide if you 

want tandem or sidebyside seating. (-7 or -. then you can move on to 

the engine/avionics and assorted decisions.   I know this isn't the 

answer you were  looking for,...... but you were asking for help! And 

that's the spirit that this is intended in.

Deems Davis # 406

Finishing - ( A Misnomer ! )

http://deemsrv10.com/



J

 	  Quote:

dav1111(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 2:53 am Post subject: Introduction To List

Dear Jim:

  

 You posted that:

  

 Hello all,

       

      My name is Jim Clark and I would like to  introduce myself to your  

      wonderful  online community. I have been lurking for ~10 weeks now and   

      am finally brave enough to say hello. I'm  addicted.

      

       I, in partnership with a close colleague at work, have decided to   

      undertake this monumental project. I have  been planning and budgeting  

      for several  months and am still waffling on what may seem to you guys   

      as a very important fundamental decision:  which kit RV-7 or RV-10.

      

 GO WITH THE RV-10.  If your partner has a family  of four both of you will be a lot happier with an RV-10 vs.  and RV-7 in my opinion.

 

      First a brief background on my  goals/budget for this project. Knowing  

       this info may elicit some targeted advice from you  folks:

      

       First: although I haven't finalized an airframe decision, the   

      following is pretty firmed  up:

      3 screen GRT EFIS / EM / MFD with internal  WAAS & 5 Hz & probably  

      dual  AHRS. (Want the chelton 2/3 screen but can't afford  it).

      Garmin GTX330 with  TIS

      Garmin SL30  Nav/Com

      8000 audio  panel

      Panel mount GPS & other comm  undecided.

  

 WITH A 3 SCREEN GRT EFIS I ASSUME YOU ARE GOING DUEL  HORIZON I PLUS A GRT SPORT.  INSTEAD OF BEING UNDECIDED ON  THE PANEL MOUNT GPS AND OTHER COMM GO WITH A SECOND WASS GPS IN  THE GRT SPORT AND GET AN SL 40 FOR THE SECOND COMM.

  

       New engine, & redundancy in most  areas.

  

 SAVE $20,000.00 ON YOUR PROJECT BY GOING WITH A  GOOD FIRST RUN IO-540 CORE, SEND OFF THE CASE, CRANKSHAFT, AND  CAMSHAFT FOR OVERHAUL AND HAVE A REPUTABLE SHOP ASSEMBLY THE ENGINE WITH NEW ECI  CYLINDER ASSEMBLIES AND BEARINGS.  I DID THIS AND HAVE LESS  THAN $25,000.00 IN ESSENTIALLY A NEW ENGINE.  BY THE WAY A PROVEN  LYCOMING CRANKSHAFT THAT HAS GONE TO TBO IN THE FIRST RUN AND  OVERHAULED IS A BETTER CRANKSHAFT THAN A NEW LYCOMING  CRANKSHAFT.

 

      Cross country from east coast to midwest  and occasional CA trips.

       

      I am finishing up my IFR rating and  absolutely cannot spend more than  

      150k  over the next 2 years. With a strong desire for moderate IFR   

      capability and redundancy and nice avionics,  I am finding myself  

      having to cut costs  somewhere. My question is this: Is it crazy to   

      save 25k by choosing the RV-7 over the RV-10?  I know it seems strange  

      to pick  everything but the airframe first, but those are my   

      priorities (IFR & avionics  first).

      

      I  want quickbuild and with ~32k worth of avionics, the RV-10 is   

      pushing 140k with a new 260 HP. I'd like to  hear your thoughts,  

      should I get the  RV-10 and initially save costs in the avionics area   

      by leaving blank panel area on the right  side?

  

 CHECK OUT WHAT A THREE SCREEN GRT EFIS PANEL MIGHT LOOK  LIKE AT:

  

 http://www.steinair.com/panels.htm   Double click Russ' RV-10 panel to see mine.  My GRT Sport is in the  middle.

  

       I am single, but have   

      a strong desire to take more than 1 friend  along on camping / biking  

      trips. My  partner in this project is a coworker and luckily also a   

      neighbor. He has a family of  4.

      

      I  understand to both get Repairman certs we will need to purchase as   

      an LLC/corp is this  right?

      

       How much more gas / hr do you think the RV-10 is vs the RV-7. Are   

      there any other extra OPERATING expenses for  the RV-10 over the RV-7  

      that I am  misssing.



 IF YOU RUN FULL THROTTLE AT LOW ALTITUDES YOU WILL USE MORE  FUEL IN THE RV-10.  HOWEVER YOU CAN THROTTLE BACK THE RV-10 AND/OR FLY AT  HIGH ALTITUDE AND BURN ABOUT 10 GALLONS PER HOUR.

       

       Thanks in advance for any responses. I apologize for the longwinded   

      introduction. I can hardly contain my  excitement, but I am cautiously  

       approaching this project.

       

      Cheers,

       -Jim Clark



 GOOD LUCK ON YOUR DECISION.

  

 RUSS DAVES

 N710RV - FLYING RV-10

 N65RV - RV-6A SOLD

  

 Do Not Archive

    [quote][b]

Rhonda(at)bpaengines.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 6:28 am Post subject: Introduction To List

Rob wrote:



"or at least go with an overhauled motor.

You'll save at least $10-20K right there on the motor."



I think you're more likely to save around 5-7K with an engine overhauled

to Factory New Limits by a quality shop in stock configuration.  I don't

see this changing in the near future because the core market is

dwindling and a clone manufacturer does not appear on the immediate

horizon.



You can get one cheaper, but we have recently seen a rash of engines on

the market that have been recently overhauled using non-serviceable

parts, chromed cylinders, etc.  I.E., parts that have been rejected but

make their way to the market through less than reputable sources or say

a serviceable crank that is .010 rods and mains, which means that at the

next overhaul (or possibly a prop strike) it's almost guaranteed that

the crankshaft will need to be replaced.  If that happens, plan on

$5,000 (good used crank) - $15,000 (new) tacked on to your engine repair

costs.  



In fact the Feds recently prosecuted a group of people in Oklahoma City

for fraud who were selling IO-540 engines as overhauled, when they were

completely unairworthy.  They got something like 25 years and the

purchasers got left with nothing.  If you do go with an overhauled

engine, make sure you know exactly what you're getting and check

verifiable references.



Rhonda Barrett-Bewley

Barrett Precision Engines, Inc.

Tulsa, OK

jdalton77(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 5:50 pm Post subject: Introduction To List

Jim



Welcome!



I faced the same choice and went with the -10, but I guess your mission is 

should be the real driver.



Don't forget, the -10 will be more $$$, but ALSO will take quite a bit more 

time and effort to get in the air.



I've never heard the LLC/Corp requirement before, but I do have an S-Corp 

that owns my Cherokee and my -10.



Your panel sounds fantastic.  Good luck!



Where are you located by the way.  I'm in Michigan.



Jeff Dalton

RV-10 Wings

---

tadsargent(at)bellsouth.n
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 7:16 pm Post subject: Introduction To List

Jim I have a 7A and I am building a 10.  These aircraft offer vastly 

different rolls.  The 2 seater is for acrobatics and day/night VFR.  Where 

the 10 can be IFR and straight and level flown.  As for the $25k difference, 

well, good luck.  You may get away with 60-80 on a 7 but the 10 will exeed 

130k for your requirement.  Also the 10 has much more fiberglass than any 

other RV.  How are your skills there?  It can be learned but get help from 

other builders, they are more than willing to if asked.  This is the best 

fraternity I have ever had the pleasure of being in.  As far as the FAA is 

concerned I believe only one person can be listed on the repairman Cert. 

Good luck in either choice.  They are both great machines.

Tad S.



---

wvu(at)ameritel.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 9:15 pm Post subject: Introduction To List

Uhhh... not sure that it takes considerably more time to build a -10.  My 

total time was 2550hrs, slow build, and I considered it to be on the high 

end compared to some of the numbers that I've heard.  This seems reasonably 

close to the 2-seat models.



Don't forget to add unexpected/hidden costs into your estimate.  Shipping 

charges, epoxy, filler, primer, window/winshield glue, tank sealer, 

headliner, carpet, baggage door lock,  are some items off the top of my head 

but it goes on and on....  mine was around $9K.  I think Tim Olson's was 

$11K at one point during his project.



Anh

N591VU-22hrs



---

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