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h&jeuropa

Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 635

Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 1:24 pm Post subject: Vne Speed

I have recently become aware that Vne is normally expressed in True Airspeed (TAS).  According to Derek Piggottâ€™s Gliding text,  â€œit is important to limit indicated airspeed so the true airspeed is kept below the Vne placard speed.  Otherwise there may be risk of flutter and structural failureâ€.



My XS Ownerâ€™s Manual states that Vne is 165 kts (page 2-1, issue 1).  The same manual states that for a 914 typical performance is Cruise speed (100% (at) 10,000 ft) 170 kts TAS (page 12-2, issue 1).  But that is 5 kts greater than Vne!!  That page also states Top Speed (sea level) 144 kts RAS.  What is RAS?   Is it a typing error (R is adjacent to T on a keyboard)?  RAS is also referred to on the 912 performance page.



What are the performance numbers for the MG?  Brochure says 151 kts TAS max cruise speed for 914 at 10000 ft.  So is 151 KTAS Vne?



It is very easy to exceed 165 KTAS when descending from altitude.  Should this be avoided? 



Jim Butcher 

XS N241BW

Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 1:41 pm Post subject: Vne Speed

Jim and all,



 	  Quote: 	
		  

 I have recently become aware that Vne is normally expressed in True Airspeed (TAS).  According to Derek Piggottâ€™s Gliding text,  â€œit is important to limit indicated airspeed so the true airspeed is kept below the Vne placard speed.  Otherwise there may be risk of flutter and structural failureâ€.

   


	


Correct



 	  Quote: 	
		   My XS Ownerâ€™s Manual states that Vne is 165 kts (page 2-1, issue 1). 


	


165 kt TAS at 100% power and MTOW is a respectable speed indeed. Has 

anyone on the list performed accurate measurement of TAS on his Europa 

(three GPS routes with recorded weight and OAT, etc.) ?



 	  Quote: 	
		   ....



 Brochure says 151 kts TAS max cruise speed for 914 at 10000 ft


	


151 kt TAS cruise ( (at) 75% power) at MTOW is also a very very respectable 

speed, even at 10000 ft. But these are 'brochure numbers'.

I would be much interested in real world numbers.



Regards,

Gilles Thesee

Grenoble, France

http://contrails.free.fr

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 3:22 pm Post subject: Vne Speed

Jim

RAS is I assume Rectified Air Speed. Corrected for instrument and 

position errors. (The position of the static and pitot sensors. )TAS ( 

true air speed ) is IAS corrected for altitude and temperature and it 

will usually be higher, so you could still be below Vne.

Graham



h&amp;jeuropa wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



I have recently become aware that Vne is normally expressed in True Airspeed (TAS).  According to Derek Piggottâ€™s Gliding text,  â€œit is important to limit indicated airspeed so the true airspeed is kept below the Vne placard speed.  Otherwise there may be risk of flutter and structural failureâ€.



My XS Ownerâ€™s Manual states that Vne is 165 kts (page 2-1, issue 1).  The same manual states that for a 914 typical performance is Cruise speed (100% (at) 10,000 ft) 170 kts TAS (page 12-2, issue 1).  But that is 5 kts greater than Vne!!  That page also states Top Speed (sea level) 144 kts RAS.  What is RAS?   Is it a typing error (R is adjacent to T on a keyboard)?  RAS is also referred to on the 912 performance page.



What are the performance numbers for the MG?  Brochure says 151 kts TAS max cruise speed for 914 at 10000 ft.  So is 151 KTAS Vne?



It is very easy to exceed 165 KTAS when descending from altitude.  Should this be avoided? 



Jim Butcher 

XS N241BW





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=81100#81100

willie.harrison(at)tinyon
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 2:16 am Post subject: Vne Speed

I suggest there are several golden rules here:

1. Never, ever, exceed the Never Exceed Speed of 165 kts. (Question for better aerodynamicists than me: should this be taken as 165 RAS since that is the direct indication of the aerodynamic load?? In practice, the big red line on the IAS scale is what we abide by in practice.)



2. Be super gentle pulling out of a Vne speed dive (eg as we have to do for Permit renewal in the UK - not sure whether there's an equivalent routine flight test elsewhere). That means plenty of height so that a modest positive g force will recover to straight and level flight with plenty to spare.



3. Abide by Va (97kts for Europa) and Vno 131 kts for Europa) and Vfe (83 kts for Europa) limitations (definitions below):



VA 

design maneuvering speed (stalling speed at the maximum legal G-force, and hence the maximum speed at which abrupt, full deflection, control inputs will not cause the aircraft to exceed its G-force limit). Maneuvering speed is limited by aircraft structural characteristics.

VNO 

maximum structural cruising speed (the maximum speed to be used in turbulent conditions) or can refer to the velocity of normal operation. VNO is specified as the upper limit of the green arc on many airspeed indicators. This speed is specific to the aircraft model. The range above VNO is marked on the airspeed indicator as a yellow arc from VNO to the VNE



VFE

Max speed for flap extension



4. Be wary of Brochure performance claims.



Willie Harrison G-BZNY



On 12 Dec 2006, at 23:25, Graham Singleton wrote:

[quote]--> Europa-List message posted by: Graham Singleton <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com (grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com)>

Jim

RAS is I assume Rectified Air Speed. Corrected for instrument and position errors. (The position of the static and pitot sensors. )TAS ( true air speed ) is IAS corrected for altitude and temperature and it will usually be higher, so you could still be below Vne.

Graham

h&amp;jeuropa wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> Europa-List message posted by: "h&amp;jeuropa" <europa(at)triton.net (europa(at)triton.net)>

I have recently become aware that Vne is normally expressed in True Airspeed (TAS).  According to Derek Piggott’s Gliding text,  “it is important to limit indicated airspeed so the true airspeed is kept below the Vne placard speed.  Otherwise there may be risk of flutter and structural failure”.

My XS Owner’s Manual states that Vne is 165 kts (page 2-1, issue 1).  The same manual states that for a 914 typical performance is Cruise speed (100% (at) 10,000 ft) 170 kts TAS (page 12-2, issue 1).  But that is 5 kts greater than Vne!!  That page also states Top Speed (sea level) 144 kts RAS.  What is RAS?   Is it a typing error (R is adjacent to T on a keyboard)?  RAS is also referred to on the 912 performance page.

What are the performance numbers for the MG?  Brochure says 151 kts TAS max cruise speed for 914 at 10000 ft.  So is 151 KTAS Vne?

It is very easy to exceed 165 KTAS when descending from altitude.  Should this be avoided? 

Jim Butcher XS N241BW

Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=81100#81100



  	




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 [b]

asarangan(at)YAHOO.COM
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 5:27 am Post subject: Vne Speed

RAS is not a commonly used term, but it means Rectified Airspeed, which

is the same as Calibrated Airspeed (CAS). CAS is the Airspeed corrected

for installation errors. 

 

--- "h&amp;jeuropa" <europa(at)triton.net> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <europa(at)triton.net>

 

 I have recently become aware that Vne is normally expressed in True

 Airspeed (TAS).  According to Derek Piggottâ€™s Gliding text,  â€œit

 is important to limit indicated airspeed so the true airspeed is kept

 below the Vne placard speed.  Otherwise there may be risk of flutter

 and structural failureâ€.

 

 My XS Ownerâ€™s Manual states that Vne is 165 kts (page 2-1, issue

 1).  The same manual states that for a 914 typical performance is

 Cruise speed (100% (at) 10,000 ft) 170 kts TAS (page 12-2, issue 1). 

 But that is 5 kts greater than Vne!!  That page also states Top Speed

 (sea level) 144 kts RAS.  What is RAS?   Is it a typing error (R is

 adjacent to T on a keyboard)?  RAS is also referred to on the 912

 performance page.

 

 What are the performance numbers for the MG?  Brochure says 151 kts

 TAS max cruise speed for 914 at 10000 ft.  So is 151 KTAS Vne?

 

 It is very easy to exceed 165 KTAS when descending from altitude. 

 Should this be avoided? 

 

 Jim Butcher 

 XS N241BW

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=81100#81100

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


	




Andrew Sarangan

http://www.sarangan.org

air.guerner(at)wanadoo.fr
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 11:53 am Post subject: Vne speed

Hi Jim,<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> 

  

This is absolutely wrong. All airspeed limitations are IAS, Indicated AirSpeeds. On the other hand, all performances figures are TAS, True AirSpeed.  

Besides the instrument error, what your Pitot is senses and what your anemometer indicates  is exactly what affects the load on the structure of the aircraft.  Suppose you are doing 170kts True AirSpeed at <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />10000 feet. The density at this altitude in standard atmosphere is 0.74. Your Indicated Air Speed will be 170 multiplied by the square root of the density, i.e 0.86, so your anemometer will indicate 146 kts, which is far enough from Vne.      

  

Remi Guerner 

F-PGKL 

  

  

Subject: Vne Speed

From: "h&amp;jeuropa" <europa(at)triton.net (europa(at)triton.net)>

I have recently become aware that Vne is normally expressed in True Airspeed (TAS).

According to Derek Piggotts Gliding text,  it is important to limit indicated

airspeed so the true airspeed is kept below the Vne placard speed.  Otherwise

there may be risk of flutter and structural failure.



My XS Owners Manual states that Vne is 165 kts (page 2-1, issue 1).  The same manual

states that for a 914 typical performance is Cruise speed (100% (at) 10,000

ft) 170 kts TAS (page 12-2, issue 1).  But that is 5 kts greater than Vne!! 

That page also states Top Speed (sea level) 144 kts RAS.  What is RAS?   Is it

a typing error (R is adjacent to T on a keyboard)?  RAS is also referred to on

the 912 performance page.



What are the performance numbers for the MG?  Brochure says 151 kts TAS max cruise

speed for 914 at 10000 ft.  So is 151 KTAS Vne?



It is very easy to exceed 165 KTAS when descending from altitude.  Should this

be avoided? 



Jim Butcher 

XS N241BW  [quote][b]

pete(at)lawless.info
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 12:30 pm Post subject: Vne Speed

IAS is what you see on the ASI

CAS is IAS corrected for instrument error, errors in manufacture or 		calibration

RAS is CAS corrected for Position Error

EAS is RAS corrected for compressibility Error 

		(only applicable to 200 hp turbo charged Europas)





--

sidsel.svein(at)oslo.onli
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 1:30 pm Post subject: Vne speed

All,

  

 The reference for Vne is CAS (calibrated air  speed), not IAS by definition.  If your ASI has been properly calibrated,  you read it off the instrument as equal to IAS.

  

 As to the Vne verification (not test - that's  implying it's too risky), Andy Draper gave me this good recommendation while he  was still at Europa's (starting with the issue of flutter test, which is NOT  recommended):

   

quote 

I  would recommend that you do conduct a dive to Vne  during your test flying, but only after you have calibrated your ASI.  At Vne you should move  the stick in pitch and roll by a small amount and separately and also the  rudder, but not necessarily tap them.  This tapping is a technique to try  to excite flutter where there is a tendency for it to happen and usually need  only be done when establishing the flight characteristics of a new design.   You will be more concerned to check that the forces have increased with  increased speed and that there is still a tendency for the controls to self  centre.  It would be most unlikely that your aircraft does not comply, as  the Europa design has been fully tried and  tested.

  

In  the UK, this 'Vne dive' is conducted at each annual flight test.  The  favoured technique is to fly and trim at a high cruise speed, say 130kts level, then progressively pitch down and reduce  throttle to approximately 1/3 open. Carefully monitor the ASI and be careful not to accellerate beyond Vne.   Anticipate Vne by about 5 knots by relaxing forward  pressure.  Don't attempt to trim for Vne.   When you relax the forward pressure the aircraft will revert to a climb and slow  reasonably quickly. 

unquote 

Nedless  to say:  No wind sheer and no turbulense when this verification is  performed! 

Best  regards, 

Svein 

LN-SKJ



   [quote][b]

wdaniell(at)etb.net.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 1:41 pm Post subject: Vne speed

This is my understanding also everything in Vspeeds is IAS otherwise you would have to get you E6b out in the middle of a maneuver…  

         

  

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rémi Guerner

 Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 14:52

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Vne speed  

  

   

Hi Jim,  

   

This is absolutely wrong. All airspeed limitations are IAS, Indicated AirSpeeds. On the other hand, all performances figures are TAS, True AirSpeed.   

Besides the instrument error, what your Pitot is senses and what your anemometer indicates  is exactly what affects the load on the structure of the aircraft.  Suppose you are doing 170kts True AirSpeed at 10000 feet. The density at this altitude in standard atmosphere is 0.74. Your Indicated Air Speed will be 170 multiplied by the square root of the density, i.e 0.86, so your anemometer will indicate 146 kts, which is far enough from Vne.       

   

Remi Guerner  

F-PGKL  

   

   

Subject: Vne Speed

 From: "h&amp;jeuropa" <europa(at)triton.net (europa(at)triton.net)>

 

 

 I have recently become aware that Vne is normally expressed in True Airspeed (TAS).

 According to Derek Piggotts Gliding text,  it is important to limit indicated

 airspeed so the true airspeed is kept below the Vne placard speed.  Otherwise

 there may be risk of flutter and structural failure.

 

 My XS Owners Manual states that Vne is 165 kts (page 2-1, issue 1).  The same manual

 states that for a 914 typical performance is Cruise speed (100% (at) 10,000

 ft) 170 kts TAS (page 12-2, issue 1).  But that is 5 kts greater than Vne!! 

 That page also states Top Speed (sea level) 144 kts RAS.  What is RAS?   Is it

 a typing error (R is adjacent to T on a keyboard)?  RAS is also referred to on

 the 912 performance page.

 

 What are the performance numbers for the MG?  Brochure says 151 kts TAS max cruise

 speed for 914 at 10000 ft.  So is 151 KTAS Vne?

 

 It is very easy to exceed 165 KTAS when descending from altitude.  Should this

 be avoided? 

 

 Jim Butcher 

 XS N241BW   	  Quote: 	
		    www.aeroelectric.com 	
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gccole13(at)cwcom.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 1:54 pm Post subject: Vne Speed

Jim,

     If my memory is correct speeds are defined  as follows:

 Indicated Airspeed (IAS) = Instrument reading corrected for  instrument (mechanical) error.

 Rectified Airspeed (RAS) is the 1940's British equivalent of  the American Calibrated Airspeed (CAS). They both equal Instrument reading  corrected for instrument error and position (pressure) error( I think there is  some difference between the two at high speeds and altitudes).

 If you are lucky, on our kind of aeroplane there won't be too  much difference between IAS and RAS or CAS.

 Both RAS and CAS are close to the scientifically pure  Equivalent Airspeed (EAS).

 EAS = True Airspeed (TAS) x the square root of the relative  air density. On a Standard day (15 deg C at sealevel falling at a little under 2  deg C per 1000ft up to 36000ft) EAS equals TAS at sealevel, but at 10,000  ft an EAS of 150kts is equivalent to a TAS of 174.5kts.

  

 I could be wrong but I thought design manoeuvring  envelopes  were defined in EAS and cockpit placards showed  IAS. 

 Gerry Cole , Classic 121

 [quote]   ---

jan.de.jong(at)xs4all.nl
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 3:12 pm Post subject: Vne Speed

 	  Quote: 	
		  



I have recently become aware that Vne is normally expressed in True Airspeed (TAS).




	


I don't believe this. Aerodynamic forces are a function of CAS, not TAS.



Regards,

Jan de Jong

jan.de.jong(at)xs4all.nl
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 3:13 pm Post subject: Vne Speed

 	  Quote: 	
		  



I have recently become aware that Vne is normally expressed in True Airspeed (TAS).




	


Sorry, I should have done a search.

Apparently aeodynamic forces are not all there is to Vne - the sheer 

velocity of the air is a factor too.

Interesting - didn't know.



Regards,

Jan de Jong

robh(at)hyperion-ef.us
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 3:28 pm Post subject: Vne Speed

AOPA members can check this out at http://www.aopa.org/members/files/flttrain/aeronautical_knowledge/8083-25_chap9.pdf  

<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>  

but the relevant definitions from the “Pilot's Handbook of Aeronautical Knowledge 2003” (FAA-H-8083-25) are quoted below:  

<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>  

<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>  

True Airspeed (TAS) – the speed of the airplane in relation to the air mass in which it is flying.  

<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>  

Indicated Airspeed (IAS) – the speed of the airplane as observed on the airspeed indicator. It is the airspeed without correction for indicator, position (or installation), or compressibility errors.  

<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>  

Calibrated Airspeed (CAS) – the airspeed indicator reading corrected for position (or installation), and instrument errors. (CAS is equal to TAS at sea level in standard atmosphere.) The color-coding for various design speeds marked on airspeed indicators may be IAS or CAS.  

<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>  

Equivalent Airspeed (EAS) – the airspeed indicator reading corrected for position (or installation), or instrument error, and for adiabatic compressible flow for the particular altitude. (EAS is equal to CAS at sea level in standard atmosphere.)  

<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>  

VA – the calibrated design maneuvering airspeed. This is the maximum speed at which the limit load can be imposed (either by gusts or full deflection of the control surfaces) without causing structural damage.  

<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>  

VNO – the maximum calibrated airspeed for normal operation or the maximum structural cruising speed. This is the speed at which exceeding the limit load factor may cause permanent deformation of the airplane structure.  

<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>  

VNE – the calibrated airspeed which should NEVER be exceeded. If flight is attempted above this speed, structural damage or structural failure may result.  

<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>  

VSO, VS1, VX, VY, VLE, VFO, and VFE, are ALL in CAS.  The FAA does not mention RAS in this publication, probably because that term is not common on this side of the Atlantic.  

<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>  

<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>  

 AUTOTEXTLIST  \s "E-mail Signature" <![endif]-->Best regards,  

<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>  

Rob Housman  

A070  

Airframe complete  

Irvine, CA  

<![endif]--><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>  

-----Original Message-----

 From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gerry Cole

 Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 1:52 PM

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Vne Speed  

<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>  

Jim,  

    If my memory is correct speeds are defined as follows:  

Indicated Airspeed (IAS) = Instrument reading corrected for instrument (mechanical) error.  

Rectified Airspeed (RAS) is the 1940's British equivalent of the American Calibrated Airspeed (CAS). They both equal Instrument reading corrected for instrument error and position (pressure) error( I think there is some difference between the two at high speeds and altitudes).  

If you are lucky, on our kind of aeroplane there won't be too much difference between IAS and RAS or CAS.  

Both RAS and CAS are close to the scientifically pure Equivalent Airspeed (EAS).  

EAS = True Airspeed (TAS) x the square root of the relative air density. On a Standard day (15 deg C at sealevel falling at a little under 2 deg C per 1000ft up to 36000ft) EAS equals TAS at sealevel, but at 10,000 ft an EAS of 150kts is equivalent to a TAS of 174.5kts.  

   

I could be wrong but I thought design manoeuvring envelopes  were defined in EAS and cockpit placards showed IAS.   

Gerry Cole , Classic 121    

----- Original Message -----   

  From: h&amp;jeuropa (europa(at)triton.net) 

    

   

   

I have recently become aware that Vne is normally expressed in True Airspeed (TAS).  ? 

 

 Jim Butcher 

 XS N241BW

    List Contribution Web Site

  <![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]> <![endif]>  

  [quote]<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>       -- Please Support Your Lists This Month --           (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)   November is the Annual List Fund Raiser.  Click on   the Contribution link below to find out more about   this year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts provided   by:     * AeroElectric www.aeroelectric.com     * The Builder's Bookstore www.buildersbooks.com     * Aeroware Enterprises www.kitlog.com     * HomebuiltHELP www.homebuilthelp.com   List Contribution Web Site   --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution   Thank you for your generous support!                              -Matt Dralle, List Admin.          - The Europa-List Email Forum -   --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>[b]

air.guerner(at)wanadoo.fr
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 3:44 am Post subject: Vne speed

Hello all, 

  

Some additional info on this subject :<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> 

  

FAR 23, paragraph 1323,  states that the airspeed error, i.e. difference between IAS (indicated airspeed) and CAS (corrected airspeed)  should not be higher than 3% or 5 knots whichever is greater. That means that CAS and IAS are very close to eachother. So, provided that the Europa pitot system is close to this requirement, you can safely rely on the airspeed indicator to avoid exceeding the speed limitations.  

  

Remi Guerner 

F-PGKL    [quote][b]

josok-e(at)ukolo.fi
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 6:07 am Post subject: Vne Speed

Hi All,

OK, interesting discussion to start of with. Appreciated that Vne should never be exceeded, has there ever been structural damage caused by over speeding to a Europa? Or to make the question even wider, has there ever been damage to an Europa excluding take-offs and landings? 

Not that i intend to over speed, but it would be nice to know how sturdy this ship is. 



Kind Regards,



Jos Okhuijsen

Visit -  www.EuropaOwners.org

steven.pitt2(at)ntlworld.
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 7:56 am Post subject: Vne Speed

Jos

I did ask Andy about the wing strength and VNE when in Florida this year. We 

were discussing some of the speeds that the Americans were reaching with 

tail winds and at high level. I am sure that he said that the wing had been 

designed to somewhere around 300 mph so that any of the Americans flying 

high and fast were still within the limits of the design (without getting 

too technical).

I believe him and was reassured that exceeding VNE would not rip the wings 

off (not that I would want to go that way).

Regards

Steve

rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.n
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 10:50 am Post subject: Vne Speed

As far ab breaking a Europa in flight:



My partner designed a short wing Europa in X-Plane.



One thing that was a real eye opener was looking at stress lines seeing

just how much the tips of the wings get loaded negative (large twist

forces) with the flaps down if you go not much faster than flap limit

speed.



My bet is the wing would fail and the flaps would be in perfect shape.



Ron Parigoris

fklein(at)orcasonline.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 10:50 am Post subject: Vne Speed

Hi All,



Apropos the questions posed by Jos, Alex Bowman reported an occasion w/ 

his 130 hp Honda powered XS mono w/ Airmaster prop when his throttle 

linkage parted while cruising at 2500 ft ASL during the summer in 

British Columbia. The throttle was spring-loaded to go to full power 

(rather than idle in such an event); Alex observed an IAS in excess of 

200 mph in a climb prior to going to fine pitch and eventually shutting 

down for an uneventful dead stick landing. Alex was carrying a 200 lb 

passenger at the time with about 3/4 fuel. I'm uncertain of the 

duration of this high speed, but I believe it was more than just an 

instant and less than a minute. With the heavier engine, Alex's plane 

is approved by Canadian authorities for a MTOW of 1500 lb. There was no 

visible structural damage as a consequence nor is any suspected. Though 

one may question the extra horses and high MTOW for the Europa, for 

myself, I am content that Alex's experience and knowledge gained during 

his career as a test pilot for the RCAF were adequate guides for his 

choices & configuration.



Fred

A194



On Thursday, December 14, 2006, at 06:04 AM, josok wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Hi All,

 OK, interesting discussion to start of with. Appreciated that Vne 

 should never be exceeded, has there ever been structural damage caused 

 by over speeding to a Europa? Or to make the question even wider, has 

 there ever been damage to an Europa excluding take-offs and landings?

 Not that i intend to over speed, but it would be nice to know how 

 sturdy this ship is.



 Kind Regards,



 Jos Okhuijsen

ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 11:58 am Post subject: Vne Speed

During  Flight Testing and flutter tests I took my Monowheeel Classic to 

184kts (Vne + 10%) IAS and did the flutter tests. Managed to do all controls 

in one attempt from 10000ft. Came out of the dive very slowly at 1000ft. All 

held together perfectly. No flutter, thank god.

Tim

Tim Ward

12 Waiwetu Street,

Fendalton,

Christchurch, 8052

New Zealand



Ph +64 3 3515166

Mobile 021 0640221

ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz

---

tonyk(at)kaon.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:30 pm Post subject: Vne Speed

 	  Quote: 	
		  >> OK, interesting discussion to start of with. Appreciated that Vne

should never be exceeded, has there ever been structural damage caused
	


by over speeding to a Europa? Or to make the question even wider, has

there ever been damage to an Europa excluding take-offs and landings?

Not that i intend to over speed, but it would be nice to know how sturdy

this ship is. 



During the initial testing of the Airmaster prop the PFA requested a

vibration analysis report of a rapid throttle backoff at Vne+10% as

another (unnamed) constant speed prop had shown excessive vibration when

the same test was performed as speeds less than Vne. I did the rapid

throttle backoff test at 7000 feet and ZK-UBD felt like it was running

on rails at 185KIAS.  When I got down we found that the vibration sensor

head had failed so I had to go back up and repeat the process!



Tony

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