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Rotax regulator

 
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rholder(at)avnet.co.uk
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 10:53 am    Post subject: Rotax regulator Reply with quote

Gilles Thesee wrote:

Quote:
> Do you think it is right if the alternator needs to
> be switched off manually for any reason that it
> should be done through the C terminal (switching an
> amp or two) rather than the B+/R terminal which is
> perhaps pushing out 15 - 20 amps.

Quote:
The Rotax regulator will normally shut down when the C
terminal is grounded (zero volt). Can't predict what it
does when just disconnected. What if it doesn't tame
the regulator output ?

Is there some way of checking this ? Perhaps on your
student's test rig ?

Quote:
Have you considered including a relay in the B/R to bus
circuit ? Bob Nuckolls' Aeroelectric figure Z 16 could
be of interest. My design is a variation on Bob's
theme, with small changes due to the different
regulator.

I just didn't want to use a physical switch/cb/relay to go
from an overvolt situation of maybe 30 A to nothing. It
would not be good for the switch/cb/relay, IF
disconnecting the C terminal turns off the regulator then
there will be no actual disconnection spark anywhere, it
will be in the electronics.

Quote:
The C wire is a sense wire, so AWG 22 and 5 amps is
about right.

5 amps actual seems like a lot for a sense wire. That
means that the regulator B+/R terminals produce up to 24A
of which 5A goes back into the regulator ?

I have seen your fine pictures of the cleaned out
regulator. It appears that B+ and R are connected together
inside anyway !

Could you send me the schematic of the circuit inside there ?

I have a friend who dabbles in obscure components. He
looked up TP154E. It is a Thrystor 800 volt 25 A 40mA and
an alternative would be 2N6509 which in my catalogue is
about 1 GBP - say 2 euros !

Quote:
Hope this helps,

It does and I hope I have helped in return.


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Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 1:43 pm    Post subject: Rotax regulator Reply with quote

Hi Richard,

Quote:
> What if it doesn't tame
>the regulator output ?
>
>

Is there some way of checking this ? Perhaps on your
student's test rig ?



Hmm, remember that was two years ago. I'm afraid the alternator might

now lie on a forgotten shelf...

Quote:
>Have you considered including a relay in the B/R to bus
>circuit ? Bob Nuckolls' Aeroelectric figure Z 16 could
>be of interest. My design is a variation on Bob's
>theme, with small changes due to the different
>regulator.
>
>

I just didn't want to use a physical switch/cb/relay to go
from an overvolt situation of maybe 30 A to nothing.

It
would not be good for the switch/cb/relay, IF
disconnecting the C terminal turns off the regulator then
there will be no actual disconnection spark anywhere,

Grounding the C wire will shut down the regulator. That is, IF it is

working properly. But then where does that OV condition come from ?

Quote:
>The C wire is a sense wire, so AWG 22 and 5 amps is
>about right.
>
>

5 amps actual seems like a lot for a sense wire. That
means that the regulator B+/R terminals produce up to 24A
of which 5A goes back into the regulator ?


5 amps is the usual CB rating for AWG 22 wire. And for mechanical

reasons, AWG 22 is about the smallest wire used for wiring light aircraft.
Remember, if your crowbar fires, the current will flow from the bus bar
via the OV CB, to the ground, tripping the CB in the process.

Quote:
I have seen your fine pictures of the cleaned out
regulator. It appears that B+ and R are connected together
inside anyway !


Yes


Quote:
Could you send me the schematic of the circuit inside there ?


Will do. Just give me some time to sort the 40+ MB of data Jerome just

sent me. I would like to publish something really up to date.

Quote:
I have a friend who dabbles in obscure components. He
looked up TP154E. It is a Thrystor 800 volt 25 A 40mA and
an alternative would be 2N6509 which in my catalogue is
about 1 GBP - say 2 euros !


Great !

Thank you,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr


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Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 2:34 pm    Post subject: Rotax regulator Reply with quote

Quote:

Could you send me the schematic of the circuit inside there ?



Richard an all,

I just posted a schematic of the Rotax regulator.
Please note that I redrew it from sketches two years old, and I'll check
with a dismantled unit, well er...later Wink

FWIW
Regards,
Gilles Thesee
Grenoble, France
http://contrails.free.fr


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william(at)wrmills.plus.c
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 11:35 pm    Post subject: Rotax regulator Reply with quote

Hi Gilles,
Do you consider the Rotax regulator could develop an intermittent fault so
that it is not always charging at full capacity? I have noticed in flight
that sometimes the voltmeter drops to about 13 V and other times it stays at
14 V (13.8, I presume). Last time I brought the aircraft home the battery
was not full charged and needed some time on the charger to top it up. The
battery is an Odyssey PC680 and is only one year old.
Many thanks,
William

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Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 10:02 am    Post subject: Rotax regulator Reply with quote

William Mills a crit :

Quote:
Do you consider the Rotax regulator could develop an intermittent fault so
that it is not always charging at full capacity? I have noticed in flight
that sometimes the voltmeter drops to about 13 V and other times it stays at
14 V (13.8, I presume). Last time I brought the aircraft home the battery
was not full charged and needed some time on the charger to top it up. The
battery is an Odyssey PC680 and is only one year old.
Many thanks,


Richard and all,


It would be interesting to study what electrical devices are on, and
what the engine RPM are, versus voltmeter readings. It is normal to see
the bus voltage drop when the current draw is high. It also depends on
the battery state of charge.

Now, if there is a problem, yes the regulator could be the culprit, but
there are so many other causes to investigate.
Frequent problems are faulty wiring, especially the connection between
the regulator case and the ship's ground. Remember your 14-18 charging
amps flow through this connection.
Every connection in the circuit should be checked for tightness, absence
of corrosion, correct wire gauge, etc.
Also, you need a thorough load analysis in order to be sure your
permanent draw does not exceed 10-12 amps. And remember the alternator
delivers power when RPM is sufficient, that is around 5000 RPM.

Do you have a schematic of your aircraft circuit ?

Regards,
Gilles Thesee
Grenoble, France
http://contrails.free.fr


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rholder(at)avnet.co.uk
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 3:05 pm    Post subject: Rotax regulator Reply with quote

I checked the C terminal. Disconnecting it does eventually
kill the charging but not very quickly, so disconnecting
the C connection via a crowbar won't work.

At about 5000 rpm the C terminal was taking 0.04 A.
Not-a-lot !

Gilles - I notice you say that earthing the C terminal
will kill the output. But your own wiring diagram shows
that the C terminal is connected directly to a diode which
would not allow any current to run to earth from inside
the regulator ! So I suspect your "earthing" of the C
terminal was really just disconnecting it.

I replaced my original (intermittent fault) rectifier
today and it worked. So the replacement (which flicked the
ammeter needle between 1 - 10 amps 5 times a second over
5000 rpm) was faulty and it will be on its way back to the
supplier tomorrow !

I actually looked at the circuit board of my original (now
re-installed) regulator and saw three possible sites for
dry-joints. So I applied my soldering iron. The regulator
still works so I didn't bu**er it up; I will wait for a
few flights before I proclaim that I have fixed the
intermittent failure to charge !

Richard with positive engineering news about the
electrics. So now to continue to determine why the oil
thermostat doesn't work the way I expected.

G-OWWW High Cross


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Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 3:27 pm    Post subject: Rotax regulator Reply with quote

Hi Richard and all,

Quote:


I checked the C terminal. Disconnecting it does eventually
kill the charging but not very quickly, so disconnecting
the C connection via a crowbar won't work.


In our circuit, the crow bar connects the C wire to ground, so it sees

zero volt. At the same time, it trips the alternator disconnect CB,
opening the line relay. So the alternator is totally disconnected from
the ship's circuit.

Quote:
At about 5000 rpm the C terminal was taking 0.04 A.
Not-a-lot !

Gilles - I notice you say that earthing the C terminal
will kill the output. But your own wiring diagram shows
that the C terminal is connected directly to a diode which
would not allow any current to run to earth from inside
the regulator !

Correct. The C terminal is a sense connection to provide a reference

voltage to the command circuit. When you ground it, the reference
voltage is zero volt.
No current is intended to flow out of it. C voltage is always greater
than or equal to zero volt.

Quote:
So I suspect your "earthing" of the C
terminal was really just disconnecting it.


What voltage does C teminal see when it is left dangling "in the air" ?


Quote:
I replaced my original (intermittent fault) rectifier
today and it worked. So the replacement (which flicked the
ammeter needle between 1 - 10 amps 5 times a second over
5000 rpm) was faulty and it will be on its way back to the
supplier tomorrow !

I actually looked at the circuit board of my original (now
re-installed) regulator and saw three possible sites for
dry-joints. So I applied my soldering iron. The regulator
still works so I didn't bu**er it up; I will wait for a
few flights before I proclaim that I have fixed the
intermittent failure to charge !

Richard with positive engineering news about the
electrics.

Great news.


Quote:
So now to continue to determine why the oil
thermostat doesn't work the way I expected.



Maybe I missed previous messages, but how should it work, and how does

it behave ?
We shunned the thermostat thing, and went the duct and cowl flap route,
with great satisfaction.

Regards,
Gilles Thesee
Grenoble, France
http://contrails.free.fr


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william(at)wrmills.plus.c
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 10:33 pm    Post subject: Rotax regulator Reply with quote

Thanks John and Gilles,
I'm afraid I don't have a schematic, but I have several hundred hours with
the same loading regime and I have noticed a change in the readings on the
VDO voltmeter over the past 3 months or so. It is also intermittent. I
will check all my connections, however. Would a smear of grease help to
maintain a good connection?
B w,
William

Do not archive

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n3eu(at)comcast.net
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 7:17 am    Post subject: Rotax regulator Reply with quote

Richard Holder wrote:
Quote:

I checked the C terminal. Disconnecting it does
eventually kill the charging but not very quickly, so
disconnecting the C connection via a crowbar won't work.

The delay is because a capcitor has to first discharge internally;
grounding won't do that..

Quote:
So I suspect your "earthing" of the C
terminal was really just disconnecting it.

Thus correct, because of that blcking diode. What grounding will do is
prevent spurious noise from triggering the sense circuit, which is a
hair-trigger "Darlington amplifier," though a rather low input
impedance for that sort of problem.

Quote:
I actually looked at the circuit board of my original
(now re-installed) regulator and saw three possible
sites for dry-joints.

Anything's possible. It looks hand-soldered, but by someone "on a
mission." And apparently still did a poor job where it really mattered!

Reg,
Fred F.


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hansjd(at)online.no
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 2:08 pm    Post subject: Rotax regulator Reply with quote

Hi William

It might be a good idea - if you havn't done so already - to check the
grounding wire(s) and connections from the rectifier housing. Poor
connections in this area will certainly ruin your day!

Best wishes, Hans - hansjd(at)online.no

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william(at)wrmills.plus.c
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 2:10 am    Post subject: Rotax regulator Reply with quote

Many thanks, Hans,
I will certainly do that.
I was hoping one of the experts would comment on my suggestion to put a
smear of grease on all the earthing terminals to improve contact and prevent
corrosion.
Best wishes,
William

Do not archive

---


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Brian Davies



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 124
Location: uk

PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 2:48 am    Post subject: Rotax regulator Reply with quote

Hi William,
A smear of grease might be Ok after you have connected the earth terminals
but not before. You want the best possible electrical contact and this
requires a chemically clean joint- grease on the contact face is not good.

Brian Davies kit 454

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ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 7:34 am    Post subject: Rotax regulator Reply with quote

Hi! William
My experiences indicate that the grease you need is electrical silicone
grease and is mostly available now in an aerosol can dispenser.
Of course you knew this anyway !!!!
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG Europa MKI/Jabiru 3300

Robt.C.Harrison
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william(at)wrmills.plus.c
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 4:29 pm    Post subject: Rotax regulator Reply with quote

Many thanks Brian and Richard; message taken. What about switch or contact
cleaner in the aerosol cans?
B w
W

Do not archive

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Brian Davies



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 124
Location: uk

PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 12:43 am    Post subject: Rotax regulator Reply with quote

William,

It depends what you are trying to achieve. If the contact/connection is
just dirty or greasy the contact cleaner will be fine. It evaporates very
quickly leaving no residue. If the contact/connection is corroded it will
not help. You need to mechanically remove all corrosion before making the
connection.

If you are worried about future contamination or corrosion after having made
a good connection, Richard's suggestion of using a small smear of Vaseline
or silicone grease will work. If you want to seal the connection permanently
from the elements you could cover it in RTV/ silicone bath sealant.

Hope this helps

Brian

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william(at)wrmills.plus.c
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 10:52 pm    Post subject: Rotax regulator Reply with quote

Many thanks, Brian,
I have had some cold weather starting probs plus the intermittent no
charging (I think), so while it is at home I thought I would do as much as
possible to improve whatever I can.
Best wishes,
William

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