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sidsel.svein(at)oslo.onli
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 1:12 am Post subject: Oil cooler thermostat

Lockwood sells an oil cooler thermostat, presumably  suitable for Rotax 912S.

  

 - Anyone with good experience using this to keep  oil temp acceptably high (problem at my latitudes)?

  

 - Does it come with good installation  instructions?

  

 - What other fittings are required to connect it to  standard Europa oil system?

  

 - Any good alternatives?

  

 Thanks!

  

 Best regards,

 Svein

 LN-SKJ

  

   [quote][b]

rholder(at)avnet.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 1:32 am Post subject: Oil cooler thermostat

Sidsel & Svein Johnsen wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Lockwood sells an oil cooler thermostat, presumably

 suitable for Rotax 912S.

 

 - Anyone with good experience using this to keep oil

 temp acceptably high (problem at my latitudes)?

 

 - Does it come with good installation instructions?

 

 - What other fittings are required to connect it to

 standard Europa oil system?

 

 - Any good alternatives?


	




I tried the Mocal OT/1 oil thermostat as per an approved

PFA mod, which required drilling out the four oil

entrances and exits. I think this messed up the system

inside. It does not keep the temperature up in cold

weather. It needs "close off the air through the

radiators" baffling also.



I have bought one of these Lockwood thermostats, made by

Perma-Cool. It has good documentation but has a very

strange sentence in it.



"Under severely extreme colling conditions it may be

possible to overcool the oil even with the thermostat in

place. This can be caused by the cooled oil moving through

the thermostat and creating a false reading from the

thermostat actuator".



This I do not make any sense of, especially with the

following sentence :



"In these circumstances, it is recommended that the "C2"

(return from the cooler) be plugged and that the return

line from the oil cooler be connected via a T fitting in

the line that runs between "E2" and the oil pump."



I have asked Perma-Cool twice to explain these words and

neither time did the answer make sense to me.



However if it does make sense to someone I would be

interested to hear !



In the case of the unaltered Mocal thermostat the oil path

through the cooler is blocked by its diaphragm when the

oil is cool. In the Lockwood one it isn't with maybe 10%

oil going through the cooler anyway. I can't however see

how any "overcooling" would be fixed by using the T piece

which avoids the cold oil going through the thermostat.



In short some (adjustable) baffling to reduce to almost

zero the air flow through the radiators in the cruise is

working for me ! (With the Mocal radiator) - I haven't

tried the Lockwood one yet)



I could scan the three pages of instructions and send them

to you if you wished.



Richard

G-OWWW  High Cross

lgds(at)post6.tele.dk
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 2:00 am Post subject: Oil cooler thermostat

Hi SveinI know that our Scandinavian friend, Stefan hase mounted an oil thermostat on his '914, and it seems to work all right.

You can get in touch with him on ingemarsson.s(at)telia.com (ingemarsson.s(at)telia.com)

Regards Gert

OY-GDS 



Den 12/11/2006 kl. 10.11 skrev Sidsel & Svein Johnsen:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Lockwood sells an oil cooler thermostat, presumably suitable for Rotax 912S.

 

- Anyone with good experience using this to keep oil temp acceptably high (problem at my latitudes)?

 

- Does it come with good installation instructions?

 

- What other fittings are required to connect it to standard Europa oil system?

 

- Any good alternatives?

 

Thanks!

 

Best regards,

Svein

LN-SKJ

	






 Gert Dalgaard Soerensen

Stabelvej 9, Haarby

DK 8660 Skanderborg

Denmark



Europa builder No. 151

Europa Mono / Rotax 914

AC reg.:    OY-GDS



Phone.:  +45  8695 0595

E mail:    lgds(at)post6.tele.dk (lgds(at)post6.tele.dk)

 



 [quote][b]

Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 5:08 am Post subject: Oil cooler thermostat

Svein and all,



 	  Quote: 	
		   Lockwood sells an oil cooler thermostat, presumably suitable for Rotax 

 912S.

  

 - Anyone with good experience using this to keep oil temp acceptably 

 high (problem at my latitudes)?

  

 ....

 - Any good alternatives?


	


The Rotax dealers are now selling oil thermostats for the Rotax engines.

One should be aware that using an oil thermostat involves  taking  in 

more cooling air than  necessary,  and  diverting  oil from the oil 

cooler when not in the warmest conditions.

In addition to the extra weight, permanently taking in more air means 

flying with the maximum possible cooling drag for the entire life of the 

aircraft.



Dyn'Aero went this way for their 914 MCR glider tow : at towing speeds 

drag is not really a problem, and repeated quick descents to land may 

lead to overcooling.



If performance is key, it is simpler, lighter, and safer to use a 

properly designed cowl flap. Less cooling air into the radiators means 

less drag. This is what I chose for our four-seater project :

http://contrails.free.fr/tunnel.php

http://contrails.free.fr/engine_aerodyn_radia.php



Reducing drag is really worth some consideration with a clean aircraft.



Best regards,

Gilles

http://contrails.free.fr

karelvranken(at)hotmail.c
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 3:05 pm Post subject: Oil cooler thermostat

Svein,

 I bought the oil thermostat in Germany by the Rotax  dealer Franz. The system is quiet simple and the instructions for installation  are clear. You neet to ask for the connections you want. You can find all this  on the net. Franz Aircraft de. search under Zubehör   ölthermostat.

 Best regards,

 Karel Vranken.

 [quote]   ---

karelvranken(at)hotmail.c
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 3:25 pm Post subject: Oil cooler thermostat

 	  Quote: 	
		   One should be aware that using an oil thermostat involves  taking  in

 more cooling air than  necessary,  and  diverting  oil from the oil cooler 

 when not in the warmest conditions.

 In addition to the extra weight, permanently taking in more air means 

 flying with the maximum possible cooling drag for the entire life of the 

 aircraft.



Gilles,
	


I can not imagine that the presence of an oilthermostat changes the flow of 

the cooling air trough the radiators. What do you really mean by taking in 

more air permanently?

Karel Vranken.

Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 3:53 pm Post subject: Oil cooler thermostat

Karel,



 	  Quote: 	
		    

 I can not imagine that the presence of an oilthermostat changes the 

 flow of the cooling air trough the radiators.


	


Of course not.



 	  Quote: 	
		   What do you really mean by taking in more air permanently?



Using a thermostat : change oil flow through the radiator, not air flow
	




- Take in enough air to cool on the "worst case conditions", say 

ISA+23°C and take-off power. This is a great amount of air.

- Continuously flow it through the radiator. And so incur highest 

cooling drag permanently.

- When you need less cooling (cruise, descent, cold day, etc.), prevent 

the oil from getting into the radiator. But still flow as much air 

through the radiator.

- Add extra plumbing and obstruction in the oil circuit.



Using a cowl flap : change airflow through radiator, not oil flow



- Take in just enough air to cool the engine

- Take in much air when on take-off on a hot day (highest cooling drag)

- Take in less air during cruise (lower cooling drag)

- Take in still less on a cold day or on descent (lowest possible 

cooling drag)

- No disturbance in the oil circuit



That's why the Mosquito and Mustang were so fast. Works great for us.



Hope this helps,

Best regards,

Gilles

http://contrails.free.fr

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 4:49 pm Post subject: Oil cooler thermostat

Gilles

as allways, you are so clear. You make it sound obvious, whixh it is if 

one thinks clearly 

Graham



Gilles Thesee wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-grenoble.fr>



 Karel,



>  

> I can not imagine that the presence of an oilthermostat changes the 

> flow of the cooling air trough the radiators.

 Of course not.



> What do you really mean by taking in more air permanently?

>

 Using a thermostat : change oil flow through the radiator, not air flow



 - Take in enough air to cool on the "worst case conditions", say 

 ISA+23°C and take-off power. This is a great amount of air.

 - Continuously flow it through the radiator. And so incur highest 

 cooling drag permanently.

 - When you need less cooling (cruise, descent, cold day, etc.), 

 prevent the oil from getting into the radiator. But still flow as much 

 air through the radiator.

 - Add extra plumbing and obstruction in the oil circuit.



 Using a cowl flap : change airflow through radiator, not oil flow



 - Take in just enough air to cool the engine

 - Take in much air when on take-off on a hot day (highest cooling drag)

 - Take in less air during cruise (lower cooling drag)

 - Take in still less on a cold day or on descent (lowest possible 

 cooling drag)

 - No disturbance in the oil circuit



 That's why the Mosquito and Mustang were so fast. Works great for us.



 Hope this helps,

 Best regards,

 Gilles

 http://contrails.free.fr

Horizonspace(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 11:13 am Post subject: Oil cooler thermostat

In a message dated 11/12/2006 5:06:39 P.M. Central Standard Time,  

karelvranken(at)hotmail.com writes:



Svein,

I bought the oil thermostat in Germany by the  Rotax dealer Franz. The system 

is quiet simple and the instructions for  installation are clear. You neet to 

ask for the connections you want. You can  find all this on the net. Franz 

Aircraft de. search under Zubehör   ölthermostat.

Best regards,

Karel Vranken.



---

sidsel.svein(at)oslo.onli
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 11:35 am Post subject: Oil cooler thermostat

Thank you very much to all who responded to my  questions regarding oil cooler thermostat.  What is noticeable, however, is  that it appears that few have actually installed a thermostat.   

  

 I favour a thermostat from the point of "automatic"  operation, but realize that "anything that can go wrong will go  wrong".  Has anyone checked their favoured thermostat make with  manufacturer/supplier regarding reliability?

  

  

 From that perspective baffles/part-covers in front  of the coolers would be better, especially if I could make them in-flight  adjustable (which I can if I wish).  

 The issue is how best to arrange it.  With +2-  +5 degr C OAT, I barely hit 95 C oil temp on top of climb from 360 to 2500  ft and only 65-70 C in level cruise.  Cyl head temp reaches 105 C  dropping to 80-90 C.  This is with all of the 2 inch of oil cooler below  water cooler shielded by alu plate and 50% of water cooler with rest of oil  cooler behind also covered.  The rest of the cooler area I would really  like to keep open due to the cabin heat warm air collector behind.  Will  only get lower temps as the winter approaches, of course.  Both oil temp  and CHT gauges checked for correct readings.   Hmmmm - - -  -.

  

 Best regards,

 Svein

 LN-SKJ

  

  

   [quote][b]

Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 12:50 pm Post subject: Oil cooler thermostat

Svein and all,



 	  Quote: 	
		    

 From that perspective baffles/part-covers in front of the coolers 

 would be better, especially if I could make them in-flight adjustable 

 (which I can if I wish). 

 The issue is how best to arrange it.


	


It is best to place a flap at the exit of the cowl/radiator duct.

Placing an obstruction in the front destroys dynamic pressure. An we 

need to recover as much pressure as we can to persuade the air to flow 

across the rad core.

A carefully designed diffuser is key.

Having a large hole with partly covered radiators inside, is like having 

a deployed air-brake.



And we don't need a permanent air-brake, do we ?



Regards,

Gilles Thesee

Grenoble, France

http://contrails.free.fr

kheindl(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 2:29 pm Post subject: Oil cooler thermostat

Why has the Europa such a huge duct and all those other openings ? I see 

pictures of many other 9xx powered aircraft with just one or two small 

openings (i.e. CT).  What I would like is a variable opening at the bottom 

of the cowl with a louvred door. Open it wide when climbing, scooping in 

masses of air when drag is not an issue,  and close it in the cruise.



Karl





 	  Quote: 	
		  From: Gilles Thesee <Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-grenoble.fr>

Reply-To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Oil cooler thermostat

Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 21:48:48 +0100




<Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-grenoble.fr>



Svein and all,



>  From that perspective baffles/part-covers in front of the coolers would 

>be better, especially if I could make them in-flight adjustable (which I 

>can if I wish). The issue is how best to arrange it.



It is best to place a flap at the exit of the cowl/radiator duct.

Placing an obstruction in the front destroys dynamic pressure. An we need 

to recover as much pressure as we can to persuade the air to flow across 

the rad core.

A carefully designed diffuser is key.

Having a large hole with partly covered radiators inside, is like having a 

deployed air-brake.



And we don't need a permanent air-brake, do we ?



Regards,

Gilles Thesee

Grenoble, France

http://contrails.free.fr






	


_________________________________________________________________

Windows Live™ Messenger has arrived. Click here to download it for free! 

http://imagine-msn.com/messenger/launch80/?locale=en-gb

Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 2:51 pm Post subject: Oil cooler thermostat

Karl,



 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Why has the Europa such a huge duct and all those other openings ?


	


Maybe they are in need of some improvement in this area ?

Since Europas can be as fast as our airplane, there is no reason why 

they should have larger ducts with the same engine.

 	  Quote: 	
		   I see pictures of many other 9xx powered aircraft with just one or two 

 small openings (i.e. CT).  What I would like is a variable opening at 

 the bottom of the cowl with a louvred door. Open it wide when 

 climbing, scooping in masses of air when drag is not an issue,  and 

 close it in the cruise.


	


That's the way a proper cooling setup is engineered. Be careful not to 

open wider than necessary : you only add drag, think of the LongEZ 

ventral flap.



Best regards,

Gilles

http://contrails.free.fr

karelvranken(at)hotmail.c
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 3:33 pm Post subject: Oil cooler thermostat

Gilles,

We are going to the point. You are wright and Karel and Karl are searching 

for the same solution. I have in mind a cowl flap moved by an adjustable 

Bowden cable. Still a small technical problem when moving the cowling. 

Something for long winter evenings.

Regards,

Karel Vranken.

---

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 4:06 pm Post subject: Oil cooler thermostat

Right again,Gilles 

The area of intake required to cool an O-360 Lycoming on a Long EZ is  

about 14 square inches, but only if everything inside the cowling is 

optimised, baffling, pressure recovery ducts etc.There are several EZs 

with inlets this small. Most of them use exhaust extraction to help 

cooling on the ground.

Graham

Gilles Thesee wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 <Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-grenoble.fr>

 Svein and all,

>  

> From that perspective baffles/part-covers in front of the coolers 

> would be better, especially if I could make them in-flight adjustable 

> (which I can if I wish). The issue is how best to arrange it.

 It is best to place a flap at the exit of the cowl/radiator duct.

 Placing an obstruction in the front destroys dynamic pressure. An we 

 need to recover as much pressure as we can to persuade the air to flow 

 across the rad core.

 A carefully designed diffuser is key.

 Having a large hole with partly covered radiators inside, is like 

 having a deployed air-brake.

 And we don't need a permanent air-brake, do we ?

 Regards,

 Gilles Thesee

 Grenoble, France

 http://contrails.free.fr

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 4:43 pm Post subject: Oil cooler thermostat

Karl

A big hole doesn't let in any more air than a small one when the air 

can't get out easily. One or two Europas have small inlets and AFAIK 

they cool just as well

graham



Karl Heindl wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   - What I would like is a variable opening at the bottom of the cowl 

 with a louvred door. Open it wide when climbing, scooping in masses of 

 air when drag is not an issue, and close it in the cruise.



 Karl





> From: Gilles Thesee <Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-grenoble.fr>

> Reply-To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

> To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

> Subject: Re: Oil cooler thermostat

> Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 21:48:48 +0100

>

> 

> <Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-grenoble.fr>

>

> Svein and all,

>

>> From that perspective baffles/part-covers in front of the coolers 

>> would be better, especially if I could make them in-flight 

>> adjustable (which I can if I wish). The issue is how best to arrange 

>> it.

> It is best to place a flap at the exit of the cowl/radiator duct.

> Placing an obstruction in the front destroys dynamic pressure. An we 

> need to recover as much pressure as we can to persuade the air to 

> flow across the rad core.

> A carefully designed diffuser is key.

> Having a large hole with partly covered radiators inside, is like 

> having a deployed air-brake.

>

> And we don't need a permanent air-brake, do we ?

>

> Regards,

> Gilles Thesee

> Grenoble, France

> http://contrails.free.fr

>

>



 _________________________________________________________________

 Windows Live™ Messenger has arrived. Click here to download it for 

 free! http://imagine-msn.com/messenger/launch80/?locale=en-gb

nwcmc(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 1:40 am Post subject: Oil cooler thermostat

 	  Quote: 	
		  It is best to place a flap at the exit of the cowl/radiator duct.

Placing an obstruction in the front destroys dynamic pressure. An we 
	


need to recover as much pressure as we can to persuade the air to flow 

across the rad core.<



For what its worth I tried a cooler flap at the rear of the radiators.

With it fully closed it cut off nearly all the airflow and it made

little difference to the CHT and oil temperatures.



When I was at Vichy this year I met one of our French owners (sorry I

forgot his name). He has a very clever inlet cowl flap. It is part of

the lower cowl in front of the radiators and has a hinge at the rear of

it. In very hot weather it is lowered below the normal cowl allowing

more cooling air in. In cold weather it is raised impeding airflow to

the radiators. This is all controlled from the cockpit so that inflight

adjustments can be made. From what he told me it works very well. 



I appreciate that normally control of cooling air is best done at the

outlet but in this case it seems it is better to use the inlet.



Nigel Charles

ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 3:50 am Post subject: Oil cooler thermostat

Hi! Nigel/all  

My two pennyworth .....I also tried a cowl exit flap but not to close off. My Jabiru cooling system of course was ALL air cooled and the theory ventured by the Jab dealer and Factory was to extend it into the air stream and create a low pressure area aft of the cooling exit to suck out the hot air..... needless to say it made no improvement whatever. However what I did find was that it was important to maintain top cowl pressure high to promote the mass down flow of air past the engine, I even collected my cabin heating air(when not being used for purpose) and dumped it in the cowl top which also assisted. Since all the high pressure oil cooling air was directed under the sump cooling fins(Rotax oil and water cooling likewise) to leave it "floating" in the lower cowl restrained the downward flow of engine cooling air.   

You may ask why am I "rabbitting on" about damn Jabiru's ?.... so to my question:-  

   

What purpose do the Europa "Gills" serve?  

Has anyone flown with them blocked off to check the effects?  

   

As it happens, against most advice, I have decided to fit an intercooler on my 914 Turbo which of course has a huge discharge of warm air mostly into the top cowling and I’m not sure it’s the right philosophy to let it exit out the “gills”, with my Jabiru experiences I’m suggesting that to increase the down flow of air, even with water and oil cooling on the engine, it would be best maintaining the top cowl pressure.   

I never had any top cowl exits on my Jabiru set up ...all air was discharged out the lower cowl exit plus the lower cowl was "jacked" off the fuselage by approx 1" increasing the discharge annulus considerably.  

Any help with these questions would be gratefully received.  

I also would have liked to have the Rotax oil flow to its cooler selectable and/or meterable which I achieved on the Jabiru by a hand control valve operated from the P1 Position allowing most flying to be accomplished without the cooler being in circuit. The resultant warm air (even with no oil circulating  though the cooler) was a primary source of cabin heat and with the oil cooler in full flow I could fry the passenger, I get the feeling that a number of Europa Rotax owners would dearly like such a facility !  

   

Regards  

Bob Harrison G-PTAG (Still prepared to learn!)  

   

   

   

--

josok-e(at)ukolo.fi
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 3:59 am Post subject: Oil cooler thermostat

Hi Svein,



I have been quit and waiting for somebody else to show his wisdom. It does  

not come so i'll jump in with our solution

here in Finland. It does away with the oil cooler completely and  

introduces an oil/water heat exchanger. That together with a water  

thermostat should keep the temps up. And because the waer temp raises  

quicker, it will heat the oil. It also adds an electrical water heater, so  

that the whole engine will be warm before start. The idea is from the  

Finnish rotax agent. The website is http://www.aerotecno.fi



As far as i know this has not been flight tested, but the numbers seem to  

add up. In a hot summer the trouble spot could be the water radiator,  

because it will have to be able to absorb the heat energy of the oil too.  

But then again, if the original design, with the water and oil coolers in  

the same airstream works, there is no real difference. Or even better,  

because the airstream through the water radiator is not restricted by the  

oil cooler anymore. W'll see in half a year or so.. I've got some pictures  

somewhere if needed.



Plans are to add a flap in the cooling duct, but as a beginner i do not  

want more workload in the cockpit. Later,maybe.



-- 

Kind Regards,



Jos Okhuijsen



workshopcam http://www.okhuijsen.org/plane

http:www.europaowners.org/kit600

mono xs, top on, gear in, tail wheel in, wings set, flapdrive in, tail  

closed, tailwheel in, tail top in, blue stuff filled, sanded and primed,  

fuel system in, doors done, windows in, sanding and filling the fuse and  

wings.

raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 8:21 am Post subject: Oil cooler thermostat

Yes - I confirm:



ALL the Finnish Europas have

water thermostat, water-oil exchanger

and electric water heater as Jos wrote.



Some months ago I listed the benefits

of the electric water heater.



ALL water cooled engines should also

have water thermostat. That is a matter

of course in cars  - why not in planes 

with water cooled engines also?



I think most water cooled aviation diesels 

have thermostats.



Reasons are about same when using

electric heater before cold starting:



- reduces engine wear = money to your pocket

- reduces fuel consumption = money to your pocket

- increases the power of cabin heater = safety and convenience

- reduces pollution = you have a place where to fly



All the engines burning fuel love to operate in

certain fixed temperature  and also like to achieve

that temperature asap. One of the main benefit of 

water cooling is it´s easy and automatic adjustable

temperature control by thermostat. 



I have heard some Rotax-users in Sweden use same

combination and are happy. So will we, Jos and me!



Se on moro, Raimo

==============

Raimo M W Toivio



OH-XRT Europa XS Mono #417 

OH-CVK C172 Skyhawk

OH-BLL Beechcraft C45 w radial engines (grounded)



37500  Lempaala

Finland

tel + 358 3 3753 777

fax + 358 3 3753 100

gsm + 358 40 590 1450



raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi

www.rwm.fi



---

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