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Battery solenoids

 
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paul.mitchell2(at)homecal
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 12:28 am    Post subject: Battery solenoids Reply with quote

Can anyone tell me how hot I can expect the battery isolation solenoid case to be after being "on" on the ground and carrying 2 amps for an hour . Mine is really warm to the point of being too hot to hold for more than 10 seconds. Do you think it is faulty
Paul Mitchell


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rholder(at)avnet.co.uk
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 1:32 am    Post subject: Battery solenoids Reply with quote

Quote:
Can anyone tell me how hot I can expect the battery
isolation solenoid case to be after being "on" on the
ground and carrying 2 amps for an hour . Mine is really
warm to the point of being too hot to hold for more
than 10 seconds. Do you think it is faulty Paul
Mitchell

It should not be carrying 2 amps. With the Rotax you only
have 19 amps to play with. If your solenoid is designed to
actually use 2 amps it is unsuitable.

I used a "rally/race car" master switch (red in colour) as
the battery cut off in mine. It uses no current to
activate itself !

Then if you want a master switch operated solenoid for the
non-starter battery current then a much smaller one can be
used - with a max switching capacity of about 25 - 30
amps. I have seen such which only use 0.1 amp for their coils.

Richard


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paul.mitchell2(at)homecal
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 2:51 am    Post subject: Battery solenoids Reply with quote

Richard,
I believe it is the coil current that is generating the heat, not the load.
Think it must be faulty. Any idea where I can get one of these master
switch operated solenoids with the 0.1 amp coil load.
Paul
---


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Mark Burton



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 74

PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 3:48 am    Post subject: Re: Battery solenoids Reply with quote

Considering the principle of how the Rotax "regulator" operates (i.e. by shorting out the generator coils when the output voltage exceeds a limit), it is a possibility that having a permanent load of 1 or 2 amps is actually "kinder" to the regulator because it helps stop the load dropping to the point where the regulator actually starts "regulating". Maybe it's better to warm up the solenoid coil than warm the regulator innards.

Obviously, if you can't afford to loose 2 amps to the solenoid, don't use it.


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hurstkr(at)growzone.com.a
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 4:25 am    Post subject: Battery solenoids Reply with quote

Quote:
I believe it is the coil current that is generating the heat, not the
load.
Think it must be faulty.

Paul,

I doubt your contactor is faulty.
If it is one of the metal can types, it is quite normal for them to get
quite hot or too hot to touch.

Regards
Kingsley


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Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 5:51 am    Post subject: Battery solenoids Reply with quote

Mark Burton a crit :

Quote:


Considering the principle of how the Rotax "regulator" operates (i.e. by shorting out the generator coils when the output voltage exceeds a limit), it is a possibility that having a permanent load of 1 or 2 amps is actually "kinder" to the regulator because it helps stop the load dropping to the point where the regulator actually starts "regulating". Maybe it's better to warm up the solenoid coil than warm the regulator innards.




Mark and all,

For what it's worth, the Rotax regulator doesn't work the way you state.
Actually, the more amps it delivers, the more it warms up. Hence the
problems encountered with too many amp-hungry goodies. In my opinion,
drawing 19 amps is very optimistic in anything but the coldest outside
temperatures. Something around 12 amps seems more conservative. Of
course, 1-2 amps won't do any harm, be the amp budget is so limited with
the continuous load of the electric fuel pump on the 914.

In the future, I'll publish a summary of the tests we conducted on the
Rotax alternator/regulator, with pictures, regulator schematics and
thermal investigations.

Regards,
Gilles Thesee
Grenoble, France
http://contrails.free.fr


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Mark Burton



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 74

PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 7:52 am    Post subject: Re: Battery solenoids Reply with quote

Is the Rotax rectifier regulator not a shunt regulator then? There's quite a lot of references on the web to it being of that type.

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Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 8:16 am    Post subject: Battery solenoids Reply with quote

Mark Burton a crit :

Quote:


Is the Rotax rectifier regulator not a shunt regulator then? There's quite a lot of references on the web to it being of that type.




I'm afraid it is not.
I dismantled several of them, made a diagram, and we bench tested one
with a Rotax alternator rotor and stator. We also made a comparison with
a Schicke regulator.
My buddy's students made a study of the thermal behaviour of the
Rotax/Ducati and the Schicke.
When I have some time, I'll publish a complete summary on the topic.

Regards,
Gilles Thesee
Grenoble, France
http://contrails.free.fr


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hdwysong(at)gmail.com
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 8:34 am    Post subject: Battery solenoids Reply with quote

.. and then we'll all be eagerly awaiting the day when you and Herr Schicke
set up an eBay store so we (across the pond) can get our hands this improved
regulator/rectifier! Smile

D

----------------
On 1/27/06, Gilles Thesee <Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-grenoble.fr> wrote:
Quote:

<snip> When I have some time, I'll publish a complete summary on the
topic.

Regards,
Gilles Thesee
Grenoble, France
http://contrails.free.fr



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n3eu(at)comcast.net
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 11:30 am    Post subject: Battery solenoids Reply with quote

An aircraft battery relay draws 1A or a bit less,
dissipating about 15W, so a device that big shouldn't get
hot. A 50W resistor is about the size of our little finger.

I tried a latching relay, which draw zero, but takes a brief
voltage to flip-flop 'em with a mere pushbutton switch.
Found out two things. One was the spec sheet was deceptive
about its power handling ability. The contact resistance
was too high, and it would cause about one volt drop when
the starter was engaged. We don't need that for best
starter RPM, so watch any substitute, non-aircraft-type
relay.

A latching relay will not fail safe though. If in an
emergency, like where a large current develops which doesn't
pop a breaker, we may just have to wait for things to melt
and hope a fire doesn't start!

Reg,
Fred F.


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n3eu(at)comcast.net
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 11:30 am    Post subject: Battery solenoids Reply with quote

Mark Burton wrote:
Quote:

Is the Rotax rectifier regulator not a shunt regulator
then?

Quote:
There's quite a lot of references on the web to it being
of that type.

Quote:


Circuit schematic suggests to me it is a shunt, bit not of
classic variety. It appears it has to dissipate heat either
no-load or high-load, for different reasons, but high-load
looks worse to me. Four semicon devices maybe about near
their rating in the watts department. Shouldn't design 'em
that way.

Reg,
Fred F.


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Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 2:24 pm    Post subject: Battery solenoids Reply with quote

Quote:
Circuit schematic suggests to me it is a shunt, bit not of
classic variety. It appears it has to dissipate heat either
no-load or high-load, for different reasons, but high-load
looks worse to me.


Fred and all,


According to measurements we took two years ago, it appears the
Rotax/Ducati heat dissipation is proportional to the output. As you
said, a shunt type regulator would dissipate much heat whatever the load.
In order to help clarify matters, I hurriedly wrote this little page :

http://contrails.free.fr/elec_ducati_en.php

Further info in the future, when I sort out my previous documents and
translate them.
FWIW,
Regards,
Gilles Thesee
Grenoble, France
http://contrails.free.fr


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n3eu(at)comcast.net
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 7:36 pm    Post subject: Battery solenoids Reply with quote

Gilles Thesee wrote:
Quote:

According to measurements we took two years ago, it
appears the

Quote:
Rotax/Ducati heat dissipation is proportional to the
output. As you

Quote:
said, a shunt type regulator would dissipate much heat
whatever the load.


If the TO-220 case semiconductor pair are SCRs, then in that
circuit "abuse" would be proportional to load. It still has
to shunt in proprtion to lighter load, but perhaps with less
abuse. Maybe phase lag at the high freq of the many coils?
Anyway, it's not a series regulator, but appears to
dissipate heat like one, proprtional to load. So, if all
true, it doesn't matter what it's called. It's
regulator....which can get hot. But that's not important
right now. Smile I mounted mine inside the cabin to help
matters. Nice work on your site, BTW.

Reg,
Fred F.


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Mark Burton



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 74

PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 2:28 am    Post subject: Rotax regulator innards (was Battery solenoids) Reply with quote

Fred kindly supplied me with a copy of the schematic.

It looks like a shunt regulator to me.

It makes more sense if the two transistors marked tp154e are actually N channel MOSFETs with body diodes incorporated (or do some SCRs have a reverse conduction mode?) Otherwise, the circuit is missing the two diodes needed to connect the -ve side of the generator coil to ground. If the above is true, the dissipation at high load curents is simply the voltage drop across the body diodes + the voltage drop across the other two diodes (mr2510) times the load current.

Google doesn't return any useful hits for tp154e.

Bit worried about the two resistors marked 47 because as soon as the input goes +ve the transistor/SCR/MOSFET would turn on and immediately short out the coil. Can't believe that's right!

If the above is true, my original point about the external load of the battery solenoid reducing the dissipation in the regulator is also true in the situation where the total current drawn from the regulator is sufficiently low to allow the voltage to rise to the point where the shunt transistors turn on.


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rholder(at)avnet.co.uk
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 3:16 am    Post subject: Battery solenoids Reply with quote

Quote:
Richard,

Quote:
I believe it is the coil current that is generating the
heat, not the load. Think it must be faulty. Any idea
where I can get one of these master switch operated
solenoids with the 0.1 amp coil load.

Quote:
Paul

Paul

If you want a relay to operate the battery connection to
the starter you will need a big relay, and a manually
operated "big red switch" from a rally car is better.

For a relay to be operateded by your master switch
(without taking the starter load) RS have them.

308-0611 at 2.50

for SPNO (Normally open) and a switching current max of 40
amps.

Coil power 1.6 watts = 0.13 amps.

Page 1-1553 in their latest catalogue or at a store near you !

HTH

Richard


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paul.mitchell2(at)homecal
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 3:39 am    Post subject: Battery solenoids Reply with quote

Richard,
Many thanks, As soon as I sent mine to you, I got yours.
I have ordered one from RS.
Paul
---


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