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Making an Europa pretty

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n7188u

Joined: 15 Nov 2015
Posts: 395

Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2023 4:47 pm Post subject: Making an Europa pretty

Hi Europa family,



So I have been a bit quiet because I am working hard on my Europa painting project. And like everything Europa related, it is not letting you make it easy (well, in this case it is not her fault) 



I spent quite a bit of time preparing my spraying setup. I built a nice spray booth that took a lot of fiddling to make it reasonably clean (and then learned that there are ways to pain at home that donâ€™t involve so much work). I built a nice air supply system and well as booth flow to keep things smog free inside as well as to keep neighbors happy. Anyway, that took some effort.



The came the BIG challenge. Paints these days suck big time. And guns, despite their outreageous price, donâ€™t help either. I selected a great paint brand that itâ€™s pretty much a boutique product. If you have questions you can actually talk to the owner (and chemist) of the company. And he told me that because of the EPA his paints do such. But he insists they are better than other brands of course. What is bad about them is that they spray nothing like the paints of old. And that makes a painter of old like me suffer a lot and make a crappy job. Barry, the owner of the paint company, told me it would take a long and painful learning curve. Boy was he right! But I am getting there. Mind you that I am a bit of a perfectionist and I want a pretty Europa. Iâ€™ll settle for nothing else.



So I think that my painting story will make a nice presentation in the future, or maybe even an Europa flier article  I will certainly share what I have learned during this process since I think it is very interesting.



So far I have painted all the tail feathers and are working on the ailerons and flaps. I include a picture of one stab. Doesnâ€™t look bad but not quite to my level of perfectionism (a virtue but a big curse). But I know some in this forum are even more perfectionists than me!



Anyway, I will report the progress in the future. This brutal summer heat is not helping. But getting there.



Best,

Chris

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n7188u

Joined: 15 Nov 2015
Posts: 395

Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2023 5:05 pm Post subject: Re: Making an Europa pretty

BTW, two exciting things I can share with the group:



1.- The epoxy primer I sprayed two years ago is fantastic. Sands like a dream after two years and certainly doesnâ€™t have any issues with degradation or contamination. Unfortunately my fuselage was painted with a different primer and sealer before I learned about this epoxy primer. So will see how it goes. So if anyone out there wants to fly the airplane on primer and then paint there is an good option. It is truly amazing stuff. But beware, not easy to spray but once you get the hang of it lays down like silk.



2.- The block sanding is coming out perfect! You can see that on the picture I attached previously. The paint is showing the orange peel that bothers me but you can see that the reflection is not distorted. The two years of curing did itâ€™s  job showing the shrinkage during blocking but it was easily blocked out by the primer layer. Very happy. I donâ€™t expect the wing to be as smooth because of itâ€™s molded nature.



BTW, all this was achieved with minimal weight gain so it can be done. But the top coat wonâ€™t be too light. The final W&B will tell that side of the story.



Best,

Chris

peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2023 5:18 pm Post subject: Making an Europa pretty

Watching and listening to learn!



Cheers and thx!

PeteZ



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Jul 5, 2023, at 9:14 PM, n7188u <chmgarb(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 

 ï»¿

 

 BTW, two exciting things I can share with he group:

 

 1.- The epoxy primer I sprayed two years ago is fantastic. Sands like a dream after two years and certainly doesnâ€™t have any issues with degradation or contamination. Unfortunately my fuselage was painted with a different primer and sealer before I learned about this epoxy primer. So will see how it goes. So if anyone out there wants to fly the airplane on primer and then paint there is an good option. It is truly amazing stuff. But beware, not easy to spray but once you get the hang of it lays down like silk.

 

 2.- The block sanding is coming out perfect! You can see that on the picture I attached previously. The paint is showing the orange peel that bothers me but you can see that the reflection is not distorted. The two years of curing did itâ€™s  job showing the shrinkage during blocking but it was easily blocked out by the primer layer. Very happy. I donâ€™t expect the wing to be as smooth because of itâ€™s molded nature.

 

 BTW, all this was achieved with minimal weight gain so it can be done. But the top coat wonâ€™t be too light. The final W&B will tell that side of the story.

 

 Best,

 Chris

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=511047#511047

Area-51

Joined: 03 May 2021
Posts: 373

Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2023 2:48 am Post subject: Re: Making an Europa pretty

Looks pretty damn perfect to me; well done.



Great idea using the venetian blinds for checking surface quality!

n7188u

Joined: 15 Nov 2015
Posts: 395

Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2023 10:05 am Post subject: Re: Making an Europa pretty

I will keep posting once in a while. I am now block sanding the ailerons.



If the epoxy is older than 7 days (which in this case it is 2 years) you must sand with 180 grit. Then one coat of epoxy primer reduced 10% then two coats of single stage.



The paint company claims that this plan will hide the 180 marks but I am not sold on it. Also, you only have 7 days from application of the epoxy to top coat, without a need to sand. After that you must re-sand 180 grit.



That is OK in small parts but I am going to switch to epoxy then a coat of urethane sealer then sand 600 then very thin epoxy sealer (this could be omitted but I will try to squeeze it in) then single stage. This sounds like a lot but the epoxy primer is very thin and light and the urethane sealer extends the recoat window to forever. Having to seal a wing or fuselage and then top coat in 7 days may not be possible for someone not retired like me.



And the blinds were just coincidental  I put the parts in my room and noticed they make a nice reflection on the parts.



Chris

Area-51

Joined: 03 May 2021
Posts: 373

Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2023 12:35 pm Post subject: Re: Making an Europa pretty

Don't know enough about the technicals on the paint system to comment on the seven day window but sounds like an adhesion bonding factor; some systems give you a 12hr window, some 21 days...



There are a few camps with conflicting views; some swear by water based systems, others solvent based.. Some swear by rubbing back and buffing the final top coat on two pak systems, others never rubbing back and buffing an "off-the-gun-finish" (reason being the sealed paint film is opened up to microscopic holes and allows stuff to set up house in the holes causing the lustre to diminish); can attest to this being true, but with a white finish you would just hard wax it once a year and it will still be great. If you get a good result off the gun go with that and a good UV wax.



Paint success is mostly dependent upon knowing how the system chemically works with different component layers; flash, re-coat, and cure times. And humidity scale when mixing for the spray pot each session.

n7188u

Joined: 15 Nov 2015
Posts: 395

Posted: Fri Jul 07, 2023 7:18 am Post subject: Re: Making an Europa pretty

You are right 51, the window is all about adhesion. The chemical adhesion of the epoxy primers is non-existent after the recoat window. Then it is all mechanical. Old (non-compliant) epoxy primers had lead (per the paint company owner) that allowed the window to be almost unlimited. But they can't use lead anymore. Urethane primer doesn't have that limitation.



So I am applying an epoxy sealer coat over the old sanded epoxy (doesn't have to be thick) for adhesion, then a thin urethane sealer coat to allow for 600 sanding and extend the window. As I explained, the paint company claims you don't need to sand the epoxy primer sealer coat to hide the 180 sanding marks but I tried and not very happy.



Regarding "Cut and Buff" as it is called here, it is very common in car circles. It is almost a must because the paints do spray very orange peely these days. If you don't want that look then you need to do it and most people just plan for that. The good news is that the paints are designed for that and the more expensive ones like the one I am using remain softer to allow better buffing. Modern sanding and buffing materials are also much better.



But talking to the paint company owner yesterday he told me people cut and buff if it is a car. He has not seen many airplane people like us doing it. Maybe if you want an award winning plane. I wouldn't mind having an orange peel free finish but will probably just live with it. I tried everything and learned that heavy orange peel is a fact of these modern paints unless you are a robot (although some of the pros in the forum I am learning from claim they get a smooth finish but I tried everything and can't). I have heard than some cheaper paints may flow better but then quality suffers.



I will ask the owner about what you mentioned regarding micro pores or durability. Good point, lets confirm it.



Chris

Area-51

Joined: 03 May 2021
Posts: 373

Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2023 3:23 pm Post subject: Re: Making an Europa pretty

Re' micro pour scenario; I think that its a bacterial thing, same as windscreen glass. As the glass ages it gets a filthy film on the interior until the glass is disinfected.



Orange peel is a reel fact, some actually like it. And there is the golf ball dimple factor of boundary layer excitation, but based upon aerospace white paper conclusions that would not really play any advantage for a Europa. Often in the auto industry you hear of and sometime meet "gun" sprayers, legends, who can dial in 0-100 what ever level of orange peel a customer requests. If you do enough study and chat enough to these Legend sprayers they tell you how they do it. 



Charley Hutton is one of these Legend off the gun guys. He's also really approachable and humble, lives in the US. You could probably even get in touch with him through Jim or Mike at Ring Brothers, or sit in on a youtube master class. There will probably be a stack of books he has contributed to also.



181 has orange peel; the surface quality is not anywhere near to my preferred level, however Kingsley's has achieved a flawless surface quality on his CUW build, and I am both impressed and envious all in the same moment  ðŸ˜Š

n7188u

Joined: 15 Nov 2015
Posts: 395

Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2023 4:05 pm Post subject: Re: Making an Europa pretty

Hi 51,



Thanks for the info. So my take on all this: I spent nearly a month experimenting with setting, paint thickness, level of reduction, and many other factors. Yes, I heard what the pros would say in the forums: "I can lay it down orange peel free". But this is my conclusion, and I am not stupid or a total noob spraying paint: I think there are levels of orange peel and when pros say "orange peel free" it is not really totally free of orange peel. Let's just say: "they can get it pretty darn good and consistent but not totally OP free". Keep in mind that laying it down and think on a horizontal flat surface is one thing but try that on a vertical surface and then we will talk.



And I have also been told that if you want a prefect finish you better plan on doing a "Cut and Buff". and as I mentioned previously, doing that with today's paints and materials is not really that bad.



Am I going to do it, probably not. Am I tempted, yes. But I really think that at the end I will probably not do it unless I am totally unhappy with the result after flying the airplane as is for a few months and hear people say "it looks amazing!" and then I wont do it 



But one thing is for sure, a pro can do a much more consistent finish than I can. I am not a robot and the saying today is that you have to be a like a robot to get a great consistent finish with todays paints. On the subject of being a robot, I have been measuring paint quantity vs area and I can lay down the paint within 0.02ml/in^2 so I may not be a robot but I am being fairly consistent.



Something else to keep in mind is that I was told clears flow a little better and tend to look better than a pure white single stage like what I am shooting. 



But my airplane is going to look good. Is it at the level of what I expected the result to be given all the effort I put? No. But this is the best I can do and I am sure it will look good. And I hope Bud is right and I gain a couple extra knots or I am really going to be pi**d. 



Chris

Area-51

Joined: 03 May 2021
Posts: 373

Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2023 11:51 pm Post subject: Re: Making an Europa pretty

All valid and wise... It's an aircraft, not a static show pony at the hotrod meet where guys debate near useless aspects of OCD cosmetic indulgence found nowhere else except in the fashion industry.



And it is white. 



There are actually some paint guys that can get a glass mirror finish off the gun. All they do is top coat paint and nothing else; and they sure charge for it. They number very few. In the olden days brushes were of the finest sable and the pot of paint was heated to get the paint to flow out flat; then it was all finished in wax.



Orange peel is controlled by several factors; the pressure exiting the nozzle, the amount of paint metering through the nozzle, the flash time factored by the amount of reducer/extender added in the mix, temperature and stability while inside the booth. The longer the flash time the more the paint will flatten out, partly why rotisseries are used, but the more opportinity for dust, runs and bugs to ruin the show. What ever panel can be laid flat the better.



Flow coating clear will build the depth illusion; not really noticeable on white unless it has a fleck or pearl factor in the base coat. And it will turn slightly yellow as it ages. Not really necessary. Better off going for three to four coats of base colour and leaving it to cure if it meets the grade.



I painted a car in a home made garage booth with Glasurit system in 1987; it was a great finish straight off the gun and never got cut or buffed. 35 years after it still looked as good as the day it was assembled with just a wash chamois and wax. And was ill with mild cyanide poisoning for the first two enjoyable years. ðŸ˜Š

n7188u

Joined: 15 Nov 2015
Posts: 395

Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2023 5:43 am Post subject: Re: Making an Europa pretty

ðŸ‘

budyerly@msn.com

Joined: 05 Oct 2019
Posts: 282
Location: Florida USA

Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2023 9:35 am Post subject: Making an Europa pretty

Chris,

I've used Imron and Imron industrial on my planes for 20 years and I love and hate the paint.

As 51 commented, I too made the mistake of painting urethane without proper ventilation/protection back in the 80s.  Nasty stuff.  I was lucky, as soon as I realized I was "poisoned" I ran out of the booth and stopped trying to paint without proper equipment.  I will occasionally paint in the shop (like one wing top) with only a good mask and lots of ventilation, but I am extremely careful now.



Orange peel and urethane are inseparable.  You are right, there are degrees of orange peel.  Some are visible but when you run your hand over the skin, it squeaks and feels slick.  That kind of orange peel is fine with me.

When Johnny (my painter) was still able, he could shoot even industrial Imron dead smooth.  He used a Binx #7 and moved extremely fast and steady laying a light wet coat at about 30 PSI, followed by a medium at 70 PSI then the final at 120 PSI.  The paint cloud was horrible, but he could get it smooth just about every time.  Once cured on top to the touch, he would mist the plane with water.  Keeping the paint cool or it would orange peel in the hot Florida days.  He said the key was a good 150 PSI compressor that put out cool dry air.  An air conditioned paint booth was a must in Florida.  A gun that atomizes extremely well, and of course good technique and overlap consistency.  (At his home he painted at night in the cool fall and used water to cool the paint.)  Once the government forced him to go to HVLP guns, he never got the technique down again.  Using the HVLP guns (DeVilbiss mostly) the Imron serious orange peel started us cutting and buffing for a week on the last few planes he did for me.  He and his guys could clear coat pretty well with today's car base coat clear coat urethanes with the HVLP but on old style high solids urethanes, it remained a challenge.  I've seen Aerothane go on smooth using an HVLP with 1.3 nozzle and it was still a bit lumpy without reducing, but not bad so they seem to be doing it right.  However, Johnny's guys did not like Aerothane as they never got the settings right (of course they never read instructions either). For that much money per gallon it should go on perfectly.  The only car paint I've ever put on an airplane was a brand called Autobaun from Germany.  It was a very nice paint.  Expensive but still not as hard and wear resistant as Imron or aircraft quality paints.



Imron, like most urethanes is so sensitive to flash, temperature and gun settings that it would orange peel just looking at it.  If the air supply isn't dry, the humidity and temp controlled in the booth and the part also cool I can't do a nice HVLP job.  The factory rep came to the body shop and he couldn’t get the Imron industrial not to orange peel.  Dupont called for a first coat of medium wet using a 1.1 nozzle.  Then two more medium wet coats.  The aileron looked like a golf ball finish.  We found like A51 said, doing it on the flat with a HVLP with a larger nozzle helped on the thicker paints.  I can't emphasize enough that these aircraft paints like to go onto a cool surface (70F or so) and prefer cool air or they flash.  I got rid of my turbine gun years ago because of the heat they added.  I hear reducers help but in my experience, keep it cool and let it cure at 75F or below overnight.



Cutting and buffing became a way of life for paint finishers with urethane if you wanted that glass finish.  I've even tried adding the roller additive we used on boats for roll and tipping, and a reducer which cut the orange peel somewhat, but it was still somewhat there.



I hate doing the labor, but if you put enough paint on, then cut and buff starting with 800 wet sanded on significant orange peel then 1000, 1200, 1500, 2000, 3000, 4000 changing pads frequently and then buffing at low speed with fine compounds, you can get a glass finish in only a weeks worth of work.  If you put on the paint very thick here in Florida's summer heat and try to cut it, you can often see microscopic air bubbles in the paint if it dried too fast on top and trapped the air in the paint.  In that case, wet sand all the way down to the primer and start over.



When it is done well, it sure does look pretty once polished out.  Problem is we don't do it often enough to get the learning curve firmly set in our brain.  So, today, once it dries, I'm back to cut and buff.  I'm still not motivated to paint the top of my wing delamination repair.  Primer sure looks good, but I've got to scuff the top, tape and drape and get psyched up to finish this project.



Best Regards,

Bud Yerly

--

n7188u

Joined: 15 Nov 2015
Posts: 395

Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2023 6:08 am Post subject: Re: Making an Europa pretty

Hi Bud, good and down to earth writeup. What you describe is what I have experienced and have settled for. Orange peel will be there in my airplane but as I mentioned it doesn't look that bad. Just being picky. I think that the problem with this task is that you build unrealistic expectations by reading postings from pros, then suffer if you can get perfect results. I learned my lesson and things are moving a tad quicker now.



BTW, I hate this nasty paint but I bought a new forced air respirator system and use a full suit with a full hood. Works surprisingly well. I placed the turbine in a box with an AC blowing at it and it keeps my head and suit cold inside. It's nice.



I have settled for spraying a thinner coat and will probably not cut and buff because I don't want to run the risk of burning through the paint and having to do it again (NO F WAY). The best finish so far is by applying thinner coats and hoping it flows. But the difference between too dry and too wet is milliseconds in speed. This morning I used my slower Iwata and I think it is a little better. Regarding Florida heat, I am waking up at 5:30 to spray. Temp around 75F but yes, the booth will heat up when it is curing during the day. I am using a little retarder which helps. I could place the AC unit in the booth and turn it on when finished spraying. 



BTW, I sprayed the access covers on the plane with 24 year old PPG Durathane with a crappy gun and it went on like a mirror. So old paints were sure much easier to spray than todays.



So I leave you with a couple of pictures of my spray this morning. Not bad. But I have noticed that it looks better after spray and then gets a little more orange peely with the day heat. I'll work on getting my window AC unit installed in the booth later today to try.



Do note all the convoluted fixturing to keep the lighter parts steady while spraying. If the part, in this case the aileron, is flapping around the spray will not be good. The distance from the gun to the part, like everything else with these darn paints, is very critical. 



One day I will have my pretty Europa flying again, for good.

Chris

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paul.the.aviator(at)gmail
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2023 11:34 am Post subject: Making an Europa pretty

Bud, I see in your posting that you have experience withÂ   Imron.Â  I have some paint damage on my red GP4. It's painted withÂ   ImronÂ  and I have some of the originalÂ paint from the builder.Â  Is it possible for a skilled painter to blend in with the existing paint or am I faced with having the whole wing painted. Thanks, Paul



On Thu, Jul 13, 2023 at 12:37â€¯PM Bud Yerly <budyerly(at)msn.com (budyerly(at)msn.com)> wrote:



[quote]--> Europa-List message posted by: Bud Yerly <budyerly(at)msn.com (budyerly(at)msn.com)>

 

 Chris,

 I've used Imron and Imron industrial on my planes for 20 years and I love and hate the paint.

 As 51 commented, I too made the mistake of painting urethane without proper ventilation/protection back in the 80s.Â  Nasty stuff.Â  I was lucky, as soon as I realized I was "poisoned" I ran out of the booth and stopped trying to paint without proper equipment.Â  I will occasionally paint in the shop (like one wing top) with only a good mask and lots of ventilation, but I am extremely careful now.

 

 Orange peel and urethane are inseparable.Â  You are right, there are degrees of orange peel.Â  Some are visible but when you run your hand over the skin, it squeaks and feels slick.Â  That kind of orange peel is fine with me.

 When Johnny (my painter) was still able, he could shoot even industrial Imron dead smooth.Â  He used a Binx #7 and moved extremely fast and steady laying a light wet coat at about 30 PSI, followed by a medium at 70 PSI then the final at 120 PSI.Â  The paint cloud was horrible, but he could get it smooth just about every time.Â  Once cured on top to the touch, he would mist the plane with water.Â  Keeping the paint cool or it would orange peel in the hot Florida days.Â  He said the key was a good 150 PSI compressor that put out cool dry air.Â  An air conditioned paint booth was a must in Florida.Â  A gun that atomizes extremely well, and of course good technique and overlap consistency.Â  (At his home he painted at night in the cool fall and used water to cool the paint.)Â  Once the government forced him to go to HVLP guns, he never got the technique down again.Â  Using the HVLP guns (DeVilbiss mostly) the Imron serious orange peel started us cutting and buffing for a week on the last !

 Â few planes he did for me.Â  He and his guys could clear coat pretty well with today's car base coat clear coat urethanes with the HVLP but on old style high solids urethanes, it remained a challenge.Â  I've seen Aerothane go on smooth using an HVLP with 1.3 nozzle and it was still a bit lumpy without reducing, but not bad so they seem to be doing it right.Â  However, Johnny's guys did not like Aerothane as they never got the settings right (of course they never read instructions either). For that much money per gallon it should go on perfectly.Â  The only car paint I've ever put on an airplane was a brand called Autobaun from Germany.Â  It was a very nice paint.Â  Expensive but still not as hard and wear resistant as Imron or aircraft quality paints.

 

 Imron, like most urethanes is so sensitive to flash, temperature and gun settings that it would orange peel just looking at it.Â  If the air supply isn't dry, the humidity and temp controlled in the booth and the part also cool I can't do a nice HVLP job.Â  The factory rep came to the body shop and he couldnâ€™t get the Imron industrial not to orange peel.Â  Dupont called for a first coat of medium wet using a 1.1 nozzle.Â  Then two more medium wet coats.Â  The aileron looked like a golf ball finish.Â  We found like A51 said, doing it on the flat with a HVLP with a larger nozzle helped on the thicker paints.Â  I can't emphasize enough that these aircraft paints like to go onto a cool surface (70F or so) and prefer cool air or they flash.Â  I got rid of my turbine gun years ago because of the heat they added.Â  I hear reducers help but in my experience, keep it cool and let it cure at 75F or below overnight.

 

 Cutting and buffing became a way of life for paint finishers with urethane if you wanted that glass finish.Â  I've even tried adding the roller additive we used on boats for roll and tipping, and a reducer which cut the orange peel somewhat, but it was still somewhat there.

 

 I hate doing the labor, but if you put enough paint on, then cut and buff starting with 800 wet sanded on significant orange peel then 1000, 1200, 1500, 2000, 3000, 4000 changing pads frequently and then buffing at low speed with fine compounds, you can get a glass finish in only a weeks worth of work.Â  If you put on the paint very thick here in Florida's summer heat and try to cut it, you can often see microscopic air bubbles in the paint if it dried too fast on top and trapped the air in the paint.Â  In that case, wet sand all the way down to the primer and start over.

 

 When it is done well, it sure does look pretty once polished out.Â  Problem is we don't do it often enough to get the learning curve firmly set in our brain.Â  So, today, once it dries, I'm back to cut and buff.Â  I'm still not motivated to paint the top of my wing delamination repair.Â  Primer sure looks good, but I've got to scuff the top, tape and drape and get psyched up to finish this project.

 

 Best Regards,

 Bud Yerly

 

 

 --

budyerly@msn.com

Joined: 05 Oct 2019
Posts: 282
Location: Florida USA

Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2023 5:13 pm Post subject: Making an Europa pretty

Paul 

Red is a tough color to match..  Work with a local paint store that handles Axalta (used to be Dupont) and see about a match after a complete cleaning, and light buffing or rub out of the paint to assess the color/condition.  I had to buy a full gallon of paint, have it split into pints and then we mixed 4 pints trying to match before I got a match on a cream color for a cowl rebuild.  Imron can be overpainted with about anything if clean and prepped.  Of course, repainting uncovers other unseen issues.  If the original primer is a lacquer your touchup urethane paint may creep under the feathered edge of the existing paint and lift it.  Prime with great care, fill, prime, and then try to touch up with a brush or I find a modelers Badger Airbrush (the cheap one) and simply do spot painting with multiple thin coats and watch what happens to the paint and primer and ascertain if the color  is acceptable.  There will be a line between old paint and new but careful polishing makes that tolerable.  Urethane really sinks into lacquer primer.  It is not as bad about seeping under existing 2K primer sealer. 

  

Again, try buffing your existing paint out gently to see the true color.  Use great care.  If it is only chips and nicks, I would wash, put a cleaner buff out on the surfaces and see if the paint brightens up.  Fix the pits and small scratches with touchup paint. Then after cure, lightly sand the lumpy brush blob and overspray to even the surface.  Then buff, then polish and see if it looks good from 5 feet.  If it is tolerable, go fly.  If the paint is too far gone, Iâ€™m sorry but you may only be happy repainting it. 

  

I call my plane spot for a reason.  Old paint is tough to match without properly cleaning and finding out its condition and the faded new color.  Hence my plane is out of the can Imron white.  I donâ€™t bother matching.  I sand the original paint and overpaint and most folks canâ€™t tell the difference.  I always got good results with proper prep and using a blender with most paints on the overlap line.  Blender does not work as well on Imron for me.  On other paints it tends to flatten and even out the overlap line nicely.  My painter always did a better job than I did on paint repairs.  Of course, there were a number or weight adding repaints that were totally unnecessary when we should have just wet sanded with 1000 grit to check the color, then 800 grit on the paint repair lumps and orange peel and spot painted.  Then cut, buff, and polish.  Stand back 5 to 10 feet and look and wait for the next nick, scratch or ding. 

  

Bud Yerly 

   

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com  <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> On Behalf Of Paul McAllister

 Sent: Friday, July 14, 2023 3:34 PM

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Making an Europa pretty 

 

   

Bud, I see in your posting that you have experience with  Imron.  I have some paint damage on my red GP4. It's painted with  Imron  and I have some of the original paint from  the builder.  Is it possible for a skilled painter to blend in with the existing paint or am I faced with having the whole wing painted. Thanks, Paul 

 

    

On Thu, Jul 13, 2023 at 12:37â€¯PM Bud Yerly <budyerly(at)msn.com (budyerly(at)msn.com)> wrote: 

 [quote] 

--> Europa-List message posted by: Bud Yerly <budyerly(at)msn.com (budyerly(at)msn.com)>

 

 Chris,

 I've used Imron and Imron industrial on my planes for 20 years and I love and hate the paint.

 As 51 commented, I too made the mistake of painting urethane without proper ventilation/protection back in the 80s.  Nasty stuff.  I was lucky, as soon as I realized I was "poisoned" I ran out of the booth and stopped trying to paint without proper equipment.   I will occasionally paint in the shop (like one wing top) with only a good mask and lots of ventilation, but I am extremely careful now.

 

 Orange peel and urethane are inseparable.  You are right, there are degrees of orange peel.  Some are visible but when you run your hand over the skin, it squeaks and feels slick.  That kind of orange peel is fine with me.

 When Johnny (my painter) was still able, he could shoot even industrial Imron dead smooth.  He used a Binx #7 and moved extremely fast and steady laying a light wet coat at about 30 PSI, followed by a medium at 70 PSI then the final at 120 PSI.  The paint cloud  was horrible, but he could get it smooth just about every time.  Once cured on top to the touch, he would mist the plane with water.  Keeping the paint cool or it would orange peel in the hot Florida days.  He said the key was a good 150 PSI compressor that  put out cool dry air.  An air conditioned paint booth was a must in Florida.  A gun that atomizes extremely well, and of course good technique and overlap consistency.  (At his home he painted at night in the cool fall and used water to cool the paint.)  Once  the government forced him to go to HVLP guns, he never got the technique down again.  Using the HVLP guns (DeVilbiss mostly) the Imron serious orange peel started us cutting and buffing for a week on the last !

  few planes he did for me.  He and his guys could clear coat pretty well with today's car base coat clear coat urethanes with the HVLP but on old style high solids urethanes, it remained a challenge.  I've seen Aerothane go on smooth using an HVLP with 1.3  nozzle and it was still a bit lumpy without reducing, but not bad so they seem to be doing it right.  However, Johnny's guys did not like Aerothane as they never got the settings right (of course they never read instructions either). For that much money per  gallon it should go on perfectly.  The only car paint I've ever put on an airplane was a brand called Autobaun from Germany.  It was a very nice paint.  Expensive but still not as hard and wear resistant as Imron or aircraft quality paints.

 

 Imron, like most urethanes is so sensitive to flash, temperature and gun settings that it would orange peel just looking at it.  If the air supply isn't dry, the humidity and temp controlled in the booth and the part also cool I can't do a nice HVLP job.  The  factory rep came to the body shop and he couldnâ€™t get the Imron industrial not to orange peel.  Dupont called for a first coat of medium wet using a 1.1 nozzle.  Then two more medium wet coats.  The aileron looked like a golf ball finish.  We found like A51  said, doing it on the flat with a HVLP with a larger nozzle helped on the thicker paints.  I can't emphasize enough that these aircraft paints like to go onto a cool surface (70F or so) and prefer cool air or they flash.  I got rid of my turbine gun years  ago because of the heat they added.  I hear reducers help but in my experience, keep it cool and let it cure at 75F or below overnight.

 

 Cutting and buffing became a way of life for paint finishers with urethane if you wanted that glass finish.  I've even tried adding the roller additive we used on boats for roll and tipping, and a reducer which cut the orange peel somewhat, but it was still  somewhat there.

 

 I hate doing the labor, but if you put enough paint on, then cut and buff starting with 800 wet sanded on significant orange peel then 1000, 1200, 1500, 2000, 3000, 4000 changing pads frequently and then buffing at low speed with fine compounds, you can get  a glass finish in only a weeks worth of work.  If you put on the paint very thick here in Florida's summer heat and try to cut it, you can often see microscopic air bubbles in the paint if it dried too fast on top and trapped the air in the paint.  In that  case, wet sand all the way down to the primer and start over.

 

 When it is done well, it sure does look pretty once polished out.  Problem is we don't do it often enough to get the learning curve firmly set in our brain.  So, today, once it dries, I'm back to cut and buff.  I'm still not motivated to paint the top of my  wing delamination repair.  Primer sure looks good, but I've got to scuff the top, tape and drape and get psyched up to finish this project.

 

 Best Regards,

 Bud Yerly

 

 

 --

budyerly@msn.com

Joined: 05 Oct 2019
Posts: 282
Location: Florida USA

Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2023 5:44 pm Post subject: Making an Europa pretty

Chris,



PPG Omni is very popular here with the RV crowd in Central Florida.  It doesn't hold up well to abuse in my opinion.  It is not really hard paint but goes on easy and dries even.  It is also easy to touchup.

The local airplane resellers simply use the cheapest car paint they can find.  My long-time repair facility owner and friend calls them scratch and sniff jobs.  The leading edges on the wings are gone in 5-6 years. But they got the sale.  In stead of PPG on a repair once I used a paint called Autobahn.  It's German, not expensive and I was impressed with its durability and how smooth it went on for a guy I hired to reshoot the plane.  He liked shooting paint, but not repairs.  I let him go, and now I wished I still had his number.  I would have been flying months ago.  No matte what paint I use somebody always has a better paint I should try.  Opinions are like butt holes, everybody's got one.



The plane is yours and the finish coat will never meet your standards but stand back 5-10 feet and look.  If you only have a little overspray and occasional orange peel, cut and buff the top of the wings/stabs to look nice and 90% of the pilots will not notice any flaws.  I did the sides and top of the fuselage/cowl so the vinyl would look and stick nice.  I then did the bottom of the wings before putting on the speed kit.  When Imron dries completely, boy is it hard to cut and buff.  I prefer to cut and buff Imron when it is only about 2-3 days old or the work load increases and then I get impatient and sand and push a bit too hard and can bubble the paint.  Be patient.  Three coats of a high solids paint is plenty of paint to cut and buff.



Keep it up.  She will fly even better with nice smooth (ish) paint.  Bugs and dirt will wipe right off.



Bud Yerly



--

n7188u

Joined: 15 Nov 2015
Posts: 395

Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2023 6:38 pm Post subject: Re: Making an Europa pretty

Thanks Bud. Good advice. 

Chris

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