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arwel.pritchard(at)powerc
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 Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2022 10:08 am Post subject: Cockpit ventilation |
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Good evening all,
I was thinking about cockpit ventilation the other day and thought that
I can let plenty of fresh air into the cabin from the two side vents,
but for proper ventilation, all that air needs to leave the cabin as well.
Then, I thought about putting some kind of ventilation grille in the
rear access panel. This should allow some air to flow through the
grille, then on through the fuselage and exit at the rear.
Not sure if this would give adequate venting, or work at all, any
thoughts please?
Thanks
Arwel
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Davidcripps
Joined: 09 Aug 2021
Posts: 40
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| Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2022 10:27 am Post subject: Cockpit ventilation |
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Arwel
I have a small sliding hatch in the D-panel in the baggage bay bulkhead that does exactly what you're suggesting. When this hatch is open, there is significantly more draught flowing through the cockpit from the side vents. However, even with it closed there seems to be enough leakage points in the cockpit (gaps in door seals, throttle and finger brake lever slots, access hatch in tunnel between seats to fuel selector valve etc) for there still to be plenty of ways for air to flow out, at least for the flow you'd want at this time of year.
I find the bigger issue is that the side vents do not direct the incoming air where you really want it, and mainly freeze your knees! There has been mention by others of some very nicely designed rotating/flap type vents which do direct air well, but probably need to be installed instead of the standard side vents at time of building (or at least it looks like it would be quite a rework job to fit them as replacements for the current side vents).
This winter I am going to experiment with installing some kind of simple moulded ducting on the inside of the fuselage (maybe even just velcroed onto the carpet lining for ultimate modifiability) placed over the existing vents. This would try to 'scoop up' the air from the vents and angle it upwards/inwards. Not sure if anyone else has tried this but would be interested to hear if they have.
David
On 20/11/2022, 18:11, "arwel pritchard" <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of arwel.pritchard(at)powercom.ltd.uk> wrote:
Good evening all,
I was thinking about cockpit ventilation the other day and thought that
I can let plenty of fresh air into the cabin from the two side vents,
but for proper ventilation, all that air needs to leave the cabin as well.
Then, I thought about putting some kind of ventilation grille in the
rear access panel. This should allow some air to flow through the
grille, then on through the fuselage and exit at the rear.
Not sure if this would give adequate venting, or work at all, any
thoughts please?
Thanks
Arwel
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Duncan McFadyean
Joined: 18 Jan 2011
Posts: 218
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| Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2022 1:09 am Post subject: Cockpit ventilation |
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Arwel,
I have eyeball vents attached to the side NACA vent, which allows direction of airflow (including away from the knees). These were made from a ping pong ball with a bit of tube stuck in it, retained by a split spherical molding that is in turn clamped (with an o-ring) to a tubular posterior extension of the duct. It's designed to be frangible/recoverable in the event of knee impact, or worse. Weight was <2oz per side.
Duncan Mcf
| Quote: | On 20 November 2022 at 18:27 David Cripps <dpc(at)knightonweb.com> wrote:
Arwel
I have a small sliding hatch in the D-panel in the baggage bay bulkhead that does exactly what you're suggesting. When this hatch is open, there is significantly more draught flowing through the cockpit from the side vents. However, even with it closed there seems to be enough leakage points in the cockpit (gaps in door seals, throttle and finger brake lever slots, access hatch in tunnel between seats to fuel selector valve etc) for there still to be plenty of ways for air to flow out, at least for the flow you'd want at this time of year.
I find the bigger issue is that the side vents do not direct the incoming air where you really want it, and mainly freeze your knees! There has been mention by others of some very nicely designed rotating/flap type vents which do direct air well, but probably need to be installed instead of the standard side vents at time of building (or at least it looks like it would be quite a rework job to fit them as replacements for the current side vents).
This winter I am going to experiment with installing some kind of simple moulded ducting on the inside of the fuselage (maybe even just velcroed onto the carpet lining for ultimate modifiability) placed over the existing vents. This would try to 'scoop up' the air from the vents and angle it upwards/inwards. Not sure if anyone else has tried this but would be interested to hear if they have.
David
On 20/11/2022, 18:11, "arwel pritchard" <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of arwel.pritchard(at)powercom.ltd.uk> wrote:
Good evening all,
I was thinking about cockpit ventilation the other day and thought that
I can let plenty of fresh air into the cabin from the two side vents,
but for proper ventilation, all that air needs to leave the cabin as well.
Then, I thought about putting some kind of ventilation grille in the
rear access panel. This should allow some air to flow through the
grille, then on through the fuselage and exit at the rear.
Not sure if this would give adequate venting, or work at all, any
thoughts please?
Thanks
Arwel
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clivesutton
Joined: 23 Jan 2013
Posts: 187
Location: KENILWORTH
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| Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2022 1:59 am Post subject: Re: Cockpit ventilation |
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Hi Arwel, your assumptions on the need for a generous cockpit exit air vent are are bang on correct. I did just this on my aircraft and put a 120mm dia 12v computer fan behind the panel as well to force airflow when the aircraft is stationary with the doors closed. My inspector signed this off as a Trivial MOD that was then declared to the LAA (a pic attached). I made sure a CO monitor was in the cockpit at the same time.
On incomer/directional air vents, are you aware of MOD12871? Mike Wilde fitted rotary vents of the type that are now made by Trevor Poulter into his sidewall (at build, NOT replacing the factory NACA vents) which you can perhaps do as a repeat MOD - suggest you check with Andy Draper first [you are in the UK?]
Hope it helps
Clive
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Rowland_Carson
Joined: 04 Jul 2008
Posts: 154
Location: Cheltenham, England
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| Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2022 2:39 am Post subject: Cockpit ventilation |
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On 2022-11-20, at 18:27, David Cripps <dpc(at)knightonweb.com (dpc(at)knightonweb.com)> wrote: | Quote: | | This winter I am going to experiment with installing some kind of simple moulded ducting on the inside of the fuselage (maybe even just velcroed onto the carpet lining for ultimate modifiability) placed over the existing vents. This would try to 'scoop up' the air from the vents and angle it upwards/inwards. Not sure if anyone else has tried this but would be interested to hear if they have. |
David - I have added eyeball vents to my NACA ducts as you can see in the following picture pages from my build journal:
http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk/aviation/europa_435/eyeball_mount_e.php
http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk/aviation/europa_435/stbd_ventilation_a.php
http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk/aviation/europa_435/port_ventilation_a.php
http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk/aviation/europa_435/stbd_ventilation_b.php
http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk/aviation/europa_435/port_ventilation_b.php
http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk/aviation/europa_435/port_ventilation_c.php
As I am not yet flying, I don’t know how effective this very non-laminar flow arrangement will be, but I hope at least the eyeballs will allow whatever airflow comes through to be directed to somewhere useful.
I seem to recall that there has been some previous discussion here about finding a low-pressure area for the cabin air exhaust vent, but can’t recall details now.
in friendship
Rowland
| Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...| <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com (rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com)> http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk| Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson
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Davidcripps
Joined: 09 Aug 2021
Posts: 40
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| Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2022 4:06 am Post subject: Cockpit ventilation |
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Rowland
That’s just the sort of thing I was thinking of, although you’ve got it in during the build phase, rather than retrofitting which will make for a nearer job.
Looks like it should work and at least direct the airflow away from the knees! Have you removed the black finger screw that opens and shuts the NACA duct and have it permanently open?
Where did you get the eyeball vent from?
Many thanks
David
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Davidcripps
Joined: 09 Aug 2021
Posts: 40
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| Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2022 4:07 am Post subject: Cockpit ventilation |
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Duncan
I’d be very interested in any photos you can post of your ping pong ball arrangement!
Thanks
David
| Quote: | On 21 Nov 2022, at 09:11, D McFadyean <ami-mcfadyean(at)talktalk.net> wrote:
Arwel,
I have eyeball vents attached to the side NACA vent, which allows direction of airflow (including away from the knees). These were made from a ping pong ball with a bit of tube stuck in it, retained by a split spherical molding that is in turn clamped (with an o-ring) to a tubular posterior extension of the duct. It's designed to be frangible/recoverable in the event of knee impact, or worse. Weight was <2oz per side.
Duncan Mcf
> On 20 November 2022 at 18:27 David Cripps <dpc(at)knightonweb.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Arwel
>
> I have a small sliding hatch in the D-panel in the baggage bay bulkhead that does exactly what you're suggesting. When this hatch is open, there is significantly more draught flowing through the cockpit from the side vents. However, even with it closed there seems to be enough leakage points in the cockpit (gaps in door seals, throttle and finger brake lever slots, access hatch in tunnel between seats to fuel selector valve etc) for there still to be plenty of ways for air to flow out, at least for the flow you'd want at this time of year.
>
> I find the bigger issue is that the side vents do not direct the incoming air where you really want it, and mainly freeze your knees! There has been mention by others of some very nicely designed rotating/flap type vents which do direct air well, but probably need to be installed instead of the standard side vents at time of building (or at least it looks like it would be quite a rework job to fit them as replacements for the current side vents).
>
> This winter I am going to experiment with installing some kind of simple moulded ducting on the inside of the fuselage (maybe even just velcroed onto the carpet lining for ultimate modifiability) placed over the existing vents. This would try to 'scoop up' the air from the vents and angle it upwards/inwards. Not sure if anyone else has tried this but would be interested to hear if they have.
>
> David
>
> On 20/11/2022, 18:11, "arwel pritchard" <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of arwel.pritchard(at)powercom.ltd.uk> wrote:
>
>
>
> Good evening all,
>
> I was thinking about cockpit ventilation the other day and thought that
> I can let plenty of fresh air into the cabin from the two side vents,
> but for proper ventilation, all that air needs to leave the cabin as well.
>
> Then, I thought about putting some kind of ventilation grille in the
> rear access panel. This should allow some air to flow through the
> grille, then on through the fuselage and exit at the rear.
>
> Not sure if this would give adequate venting, or work at all, any
> thoughts please?
>
> Thanks
>
> Arwel
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
|
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Rowland_Carson
Joined: 04 Jul 2008
Posts: 154
Location: Cheltenham, England
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| Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2022 7:55 am Post subject: Cockpit ventilation |
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On 2022-11-21, at 12:05, Dpc <dpc(at)knightonweb.com (dpc(at)knightonweb.com)> wrote: | Quote: | Looks like it should work and at least direct the airflow away from the knees! Have you removed the black finger screw that opens and shuts the NACA duct and have it permanently open?
Where did you get the eyeball vent from
|
David - yes, I removed the finger-screw on the 2nd one after the first self-destructed. I then filled the resulting holes in the mouldings - see:
http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk/aviation/europa_435/fill_naca_duct.php
As to the source of the eyeball vents, I was given a pair of eyeball vents from another builder Peter Davis way back in 2008. I am not sure if those are the ones I actually installed, as I also received a pair in black plastic with a different mechanism from a kind PFA/LAA friend at some time in the distant past. I think I still have the black ones knocking about somewhere - would you care to have them if I can find them?
Alternatively, look for a dashboard from a MkI Cortina!
in friendship
Rowland
| Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...| <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com (rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com)> http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk| Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson
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Davidcripps
Joined: 09 Aug 2021
Posts: 40
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| Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2022 8:24 am Post subject: Cockpit ventilation |
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Rowland
That’s a very kind offer. Yes I’d love your old eyeball vents if you do find them. Very happy to cover postage or collect from an airfield near you (weather permitting).
I think I’d keep my NACA screw mechanism is place so I can fully shut the NACA vent when no air is required.
You can Whatsapp me directly on 07393 761230 to avoid taking up more space on Matronics or email me directly. dpc(at)knightonweb.com
Many thanks
David
| Quote: | On 21 Nov 2022, at 15:58, Rowland Carson <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com> wrote:
On 2022-11-21, at 12:05, Dpc <dpc(at)knightonweb.com (dpc(at)knightonweb.com)> wrote: | Quote: | Looks like it should work and at least direct the airflow away from the knees! Have you removed the black finger screw that opens and shuts the NACA duct and have it permanently open?
Where did you get the eyeball vent from
|
David - yes, I removed the finger-screw on the 2nd one after the first self-destructed. I then filled the resulting holes in the mouldings - see:
http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk/aviation/europa_435/fill_naca_duct.php
As to the source of the eyeball vents, I was given a pair of eyeball vents from another builder Peter Davis way back in 2008. I am not sure if those are the ones I actually installed, as I also received a pair in black plastic with a different mechanism from a kind PFA/LAA friend at some time in the distant past. I think I still have the black ones knocking about somewhere - would you care to have them if I can find them?
Alternatively, look for a dashboard from a MkI Cortina!
in friendship
Rowland
| Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...| <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com (rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com)> http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk| Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson
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Paul M 383
Joined: 19 Mar 2012
Posts: 97
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2022 10:25 am Post subject: Re: Cockpit ventilation |
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Aveo make some lovely brushed ali eyeball vents ( https://www.aveoengineering.com/lsa-experimental-ul-kits-and-gliders > Misc and Accessories)
…which I used in the “standard” vent extension - I believe the Club has the molds for these (I made mine while demonstrating composite techniques at the LAA Rally - the reward was I got to keep the parts I made 😁)
I removed the screw mechanism and superfluous plate, much like Rowland did - they can be closed to block all air entering. This photo does not show the stbd one well, but you might get the idea.
HTH,
Paul
G-PLPM
Mono XS 912S
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