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Delta Juliet

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davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2022 3:49 pm Post subject: Delta Juliet

Medical issues leave me facing the  loss of my class 2 medical and with it the ability to tour abroad - which is what has provided my main flying pleasure. So sadly I shall be parting with Delta Juliet. It is one of the most widely travelled Europas and at the same time one of the most lavishly equipped whilst  being one of the lighter 914/wobbly prop/monos flying. Amongst other things: Garmin G3X touch / G5 / Twin channel nav com radio with ILS & twin VOR / ADSB in and out / Garmin  three axis autopilot / Beringer wheel and brake / low hours 914 /  Woodcomp SR3000 N/W high twist prop / covered  trailer. I shall be prepared to part with it to a good home for a modest price. I am in the US until 10 November but as soon as I am home I will be happy to send full documentation on to anyone interested and happy to arrange a trial flight. 

David Joyce, GXSDJ

Mallard

Joined: 22 Oct 2019
Posts: 49
Location: Ireland

Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2022 12:07 am Post subject: Delta Juliet

Sorry to hear about your medical issues David. 

 Regarding travelling abroad; would a LAPL medical not suffice? I know that it is acceptable here in Ireland as I have one & I had a massive heart attack followed by a 4-way bypass in 2007.

 

 

 Get  Outlook for Android

  From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> on behalf of davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>

 Sent: Monday, October 24, 2022 12:49:06 AM

 To: europa list <europa-list(at)matronics.com>

 Subject: Delta Juliet  

 

  

Medical issues leave me facing the  loss of my class 2 medical and with it the ability to tour abroad - which is what has provided my main flying pleasure. So sadly I shall be parting with Delta Juliet. It is one of the most widely travelled Europas and  at the same time one of the most lavishly equipped whilst  being one of the lighter 914/wobbly prop/monos flying. Amongst other things: Garmin G3X touch / G5 / Twin channel nav com radio with ILS & twin VOR / ADSB in and out / Garmin  three axis autopilot  / Beringer wheel and brake / low hours 914 /  Woodcomp SR3000 N/W high twist prop / covered  trailer. I shall be prepared to part with it to a good home for a modest price. I am in the US until 10 November but as soon as I am home I will be happy to send full  documentation on to anyone interested and happy to arrange a trial flight. 

David Joyce, GXSDJ

_________________
Seat of my pants

ivanshaw(at)btinternet.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2022 12:41 am Post subject: Delta Juliet

Morning David,

A sad day, the Europa family just wouldnâ€™t be the same without you!

I now do a self cert medical which I understand is good for both the UK and France nowâ€¦.with maybe more countries to follow. That geographical area will keep me entertained for the remainder of my flying days!!

 

Best wishes,

Ivan

 

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> On Behalf Of davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk

Sent: 24 October 2022 00:49

To: europa list <europa-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Delta Juliet

 

Medical issues leave me facing the  loss of my class 2 medical and with it the ability to tour abroad - which is what has provided my main flying pleasure. So sadly I shall be parting with Delta Juliet. It is one of the most widely travelled Europas and at the same time one of the most lavishly equipped whilst  being one of the lighter 914/wobbly prop/monos flying. Amongst other things: Garmin G3X touch / G5 / Twin channel nav com radio with ILS & twin VOR / ADSB in and out / Garmin  three axis autopilot / Beringer wheel and brake / low hours 914 /  Woodcomp SR3000 N/W high twist prop / covered  trailer. I shall be prepared to part with it to a good home for a modest price. I am in the US until 10 November but as soon as I am home I will be happy to send full documentation on to anyone interested and happy to arrange a trial flight.

David Joyce, GXSDJ

Hitchflight

Joined: 22 Feb 2018
Posts: 93
Location: Derbyshire, England

Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2022 5:15 am Post subject: Re: Delta Juliet

A sad day. Two decades since I went on my first Europa Club European adventure transforming my flying aspirations. 



Hard to imagine that the 2022 Norway trip completed together with five other Club members, has become  Davidâ€™s last European adventure. 



(at) David: Best wishes to you.



(at) Ivan: In respect of non ICAO compliant pilot licence travel to France. Sadly  an unambiguous clarification has just been released by the DGAC.

Everything Irv Lee feared in the Europa Club Zoom post Brexit presentation earlier this year did come true.



Please donâ€™t shoot the messenger.



https://www.theeuropaclub.org/news/dgac:-lapl-pilot-qualification-clarification-

ivanshaw(at)btinternet.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2022 5:36 am Post subject: Delta Juliet

Hi Bob,

I don't hold a LAPL.

I operate now on a full PPL. I have one life time one issued by the CAA and one issued by EASA. My CPL has now expired, being 77!!

Using these licenses can I no longer fly to France on my self-certification medical?



ATB

Ivan



--

Hitchflight

Joined: 22 Feb 2018
Posts: 93
Location: Derbyshire, England

Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2022 8:48 am Post subject: Re: Delta Juliet

Hi Ivan



The short answer



Neither option is acceptable at this moment in time. Unless you write to the national authority and obtain permission. Your likelihood of success holding a PMD only is currently rated as low based on recent experience.



So all the European Union is off limits for you. I have raised with the LAA and they have thanked the Europa Club for bringing to their attention this latest development. They will advise the wider LAA membership as appropriate. The initial response from France is not promising. We live in hope that things may change back.



The long answer.



Iâ€™ll do my best to answer the question but Iâ€™m not the authority. The situation remains dynamic. Itâ€™s a mess. Noting the CAA are seeking to change the system as it applies to the UK. The Europa Club engaged experts to explain the foreseen predicament in a Europa Club Zoom presentation. https://www.theeuropaclub.org/flying/flying-in-europe



Letâ€™s break it down. In your unique case. You have two licences that were issued as PPLs. An EASA PPL and a UK PPL with ratings attached as appropriate. Iâ€™m choosing to ignore your CPL IR . 



EASA PPL



First assumption is that your EASA PPL was State issued by the United Kingdom at a time when the UK was part of the European Union.

Second assumption is we are only talking about a Europa which is a Non Part 21 aircraft.



In such a scenario CAP2086 & Commission regulation 1178/2011 applied. You are flying a British G-reg Europa outside UK using a UK PPL or Medical certificate.  CAP2086 confirms UK law made your pre-2021 EASA PPL and/or EASA medical legal as a UK ICAO equivalent. With the ability to use internationally when associated with an internationally recognised certificate. Unfortunately during the Brexit negotiations this area was messed up in the sense that UK LAPL medical and EASA LAPL medical became an area of contention. Mutually non-recognised at the pan EU EASA level of government negotiations. However most sovereign countries in Europe will hold valid a UK LAPL medical provided permission is sought in advance and obtained in writing in advance from each sovereign sate with the EU. The PMD was not discussed as it was never recognised by EASA. But was inferred as recognised by France under an old presidential decree until very recently. Remembering some of the rational predates the UK joining the EU back in 1972. Exceptions would be granted to old historic aircraft. Fast forward to today. Negotiations continue with the French, but unfortunately at the same time the UK is potentially moving the goal posts by further streamlining licences. Indeed a consultation process has already begun and the opinions of UK pilots is currently being canvassed. In October 2022 The first part of the rule comes from the ArrÃªtÃ© (Decree) : "Pilots must hold an aeronautical title issued or recognised by the authority of the State of registry". But under a new interpretation they have created a restrictive condition : "if the pilot's aeronautical title has not been issued in accordance with ICAO Annex 1 or European regulations, he will have to request authorisation".



In this scenario with this licence with this licence combined with a PMD you can fly in the UK  ( inc. the Channel Islands if permission of obtained from the Bailwick). Provided you donâ€™t fly at Night or on Instruments. Your plane can fly to Europe because of ECAC approval. You cannot pilot to Europe because the medical associated with your ICAO standard licence does not meet an international standard. 



Consequently you are restricted to LAPL privileges and because it is non-ICAO, restricted to UK airspace unless a foreign authority were to approve a unique or serial applications to visit.



The old original Lifetime UK PPL



Assumption is we are mainly talking about a Europa which is a Non Part 21 aircraft. Old PPL licences with SEP ratings are valid in non Part 21 aircraft, if an aircraft that could be flown by a LAPL(A) pilot with associated LAPL level of medical. The association is valid in non-Part21 aircraft as if it is a UK CAA PPL but restricted to UK Airspace only unless permitted by foreign authority. 

Overview



I personally hold a UK ICAO PPL  with IR(R) and Class 2 medical certificate. I was tempted to move to the LAPL . But fortunately I didnâ€™t only because of a previous  Spanish tough interpretation insistence on a Class 2. But now in all the post Brexit confusion it seems the only gold standard for a British pilot who wants to travel in Europe is a PPL with a Class 2 medical.



Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. Hope it changes, but I fear it wonâ€™t.



Trust that helps. Let me know if you need more.



Regards



Bob

ivanshaw(at)btinternet.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2022 9:17 am Post subject: Delta Juliet

Hi Bob,

Many thanks for taking the time to give me chapter and verse  looks like it's a class two for me next year!! Still we live in hope that common sense will prevail....but let's not hold our breath!!



Best Wishes.



Ivan



--

budyerly@msn.com

Joined: 05 Oct 2019
Posts: 282
Location: Florida USA

Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2022 12:55 pm Post subject: Delta Juliet

On behalf of most of us geriatric Americans.  We too feel your disappointment and recognize our medical limitations on fighting to fly in our regulated flight systems. 

  

You have a lovely aircraft from the pictures Iâ€™ve seen and I can only hope DJ  will continue her travels and adventures and be as well loved and cared for by its new owner as you have shown it. 

  

Best Regards, 

Bud Yerly 

    

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com  <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> On Behalf Of davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk

 Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2022 7:49 PM

 To: europa list <europa-list(at)matronics.com>

 Subject: Europa-List: Delta Juliet 

 

 

  

Medical issues leave me facing the  loss of my class 2 medical and with it the ability to tour abroad - which is what has provided my main flying pleasure. So sadly  I shall be parting with Delta Juliet. It is one of the most widely travelled Europas and at the same time one of the most lavishly equipped whilst  being one of the lighter 914/wobbly prop/monos flying. Amongst other things: Garmin G3X touch / G5 / Twin channel  nav com radio with ILS & twin VOR / ADSB in and out / Garmin  three axis autopilot / Beringer wheel and brake / low hours 914 /  Woodcomp SR3000 N/W high twist prop / covered  trailer. I shall be prepared to part with it to a good home for a modest price.  I am in the US until 10 November but as soon as I am home I will be happy to send full documentation on to anyone interested and happy to arrange a trial flight. 

David Joyce, GXSDJ

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2022 4:22 pm Post subject: Delta Juliet

Bud, Many thanks for the comments. All best, David  

 

 

On 2022-10-24 21:54, Bud Yerly wrote:  	  Quote: 	
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On behalf of most of us geriatric Americans.  We too feel your disappointment and recognize our medical limitations on fighting to fly in our regulated flight systems. 

  

You have a lovely aircraft from the pictures I've seen and I can only hope DJ will continue her travels and adventures and be as well loved and cared for by its new owner as you have shown it. 

  

Best Regards, 

Bud Yerly 

    

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> On Behalf Of davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.ukSent: Sunday, October 23, 2022 7:49 PMTo: europa list <europa-list(at)matronics.com>Subject: Delta Juliet 

 

 

  

Medical issues leave me facing the  loss of my class 2 medical and with it the ability to tour abroad - which is what has provided my main flying pleasure. So sadly I shall be parting with Delta Juliet. It is one of the most widely travelled Europas and at the same time one of the most lavishly equipped whilst  being one of the lighter 914/wobbly prop/monos flying. Amongst other things: Garmin G3X touch / G5 / Twin channel nav com radio with ILS & twin VOR / ADSB in and out / Garmin  three axis autopilot / Beringer wheel and brake / low hours 914 /  Woodcomp SR3000 N/W high twist prop / covered  trailer. I shall be prepared to part with it to a good home for a modest price. I am in the US until 10 November but as soon as I am home I will be happy to send full documentation on to anyone interested and happy to arrange a trial flight. 

David Joyce, GXSDJ

rogersheridan(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2022 1:50 am Post subject: Delta Juliet

Hi David,

Very sorry to hear your news.

I had the pleasure of a flight in DJ with you from Gloucester to Glebe Farm near Huntingdon back in 2020 & would be interested in upgrading from my 912 classic!



Kind regards,



Roger



 	  Quote: 	
		  On 24 Oct 2022, at 00:49, davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk) wrote:

CAUTION: This email originated from outside your organization. Exercise caution when opening attachments or on clicking links from unknown senders.  

Medical issues leave me facing the  loss of my class 2 medical and with it the ability to tour abroad - which is what has provided my main flying pleasure. So sadly I shall be parting with Delta Juliet. It is one of the most widely travelled Europas and at the same time one of the most lavishly equipped whilst  being one of the lighter 914/wobbly prop/monos flying. Amongst other things: Garmin G3X touch / G5 / Twin channel nav com radio with ILS & twin VOR / ADSB in and out / Garmin  three axis autopilot / Beringer wheel and brake / low hours 914 /  Woodcomp SR3000 N/W high twist prop / covered  trailer. I shall be prepared to part with it to a good home for a modest price. I am in the US until 10 November but as soon as I am home I will be happy to send full documentation on to anyone interested and happy to arrange a trial flight.

David Joyce, GXSDJ

Tony3530

Joined: 17 Jun 2021
Posts: 1
Location: UK

Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2022 5:35 am Post subject: Delta Juliet

Hi DavidSorry to hear this. It seems like the end of an era as you have been a leader in the Europa community for so long. I suppose it is an inevitable outcome for all of us eventually. I have personally appreciated your support with magazine content over the years.

We are currently in Florida returning on the 11 November. It seems many new people in the club seem to want everything online so the next magazine could be my last. It will be interesting to see if anyone is prepared to continue to create an on line equivalent..

Regards

Tony

Sent from my iPhone



 	  Quote: 	
		  On Oct 23, 2022, at 7:51 PM, davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk wrote:



ï»¿ 

Medical issues leave me facing the  loss of my class 2 medical and with it the ability to tour abroad - which is what has provided my main flying pleasure. So sadly I shall be parting with Delta Juliet. It is one of the most widely travelled Europas and at the same time one of the most lavishly equipped whilst  being one of the lighter 914/wobbly prop/monos flying. Amongst other things: Garmin G3X touch / G5 / Twin channel nav com radio with ILS & twin VOR / ADSB in and out / Garmin  three axis autopilot / Beringer wheel and brake / low hours 914 /  Woodcomp SR3000 N/W high twist prop / covered  trailer. I shall be prepared to part with it to a good home for a modest price. I am in the US until 10 November but as soon as I am home I will be happy to send full documentation on to anyone interested and happy to arrange a trial flight. 

David Joyce, GXSDJ

_________________
TW2150

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2022 5:39 pm Post subject: Delta Juliet

Tony, At 84 and having achieved my flying ambitions and having flown round Europe multiple times I can&rsquo;t feel too sorry for myself. I dare say I shall carry on doing a bit of flying woth Tim and might even go back to gliding, which in many ways is a superior, rather intellectual form of flying. I deplore the thought that the magazine might go digital and very much hope you will soldier on for a few years yet. All best, David  

 

 

On 2022-10-29 14:35, Tony Wickens wrote:  	  Quote: 	
		    Hi David Sorry to hear this. It seems like the end of an era as you have been a leader in the Europa community for so long. I suppose it is an inevitable outcome for all of us eventually. I have personally appreciated your support with magazine content over the years.

  

 We are currently in Florida returning on the 11 November. It seems many new people in the club seem to want everything online so the next magazine could be my last. It will be interesting to see if anyone is prepared to continue to create an on line equivalent..

  

 Regards

 Tony

  Sent from my iPhone

   	  Quote: 	
		  On Oct 23, 2022, at 7:51 PM, davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk wrote:  

Medical issues leave me facing the  loss of my class 2 medical and with it the ability to tour abroad - which is what has provided my main flying pleasure. So sadly I shall be parting with Delta Juliet. It is one of the most widely travelled Europas and at the same time one of the most lavishly equipped whilst  being one of the lighter 914/wobbly prop/monos flying. Amongst other things: Garmin G3X touch / G5 / Twin channel nav com radio with ILS & twin VOR / ADSB in and out / Garmin  three axis autopilot / Beringer wheel and brake / low hours 914 /  Woodcomp SR3000 N/W high twist prop / covered  trailer. I shall be prepared to part with it to a good home for a modest price. I am in the US until 10 November but as soon as I am home I will be happy to send full documentation on to anyone interested and happy to arrange a trial flight. 

David Joyce, GXSDJ

ptag.dev(at)talktalk.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2022 3:46 am Post subject: Delta Juliet

Hi! Tony ,   

for what its worth I will say I detest the "on line way"  every bloody thing is going "on line or digital" . I welcome the actual "printed word"    

I already spend too much time on this bloody thing . I think it will give me "the bums rush" if you as you say "go digital". My life is already made a bloody misery by  the statement    " may be read on line" from such as poxy Insurance and Council Tax issues.   

regards   

Bob Harrison.    	  Quote: 	
		      On 29 October 2022 at 14:35 Tony Wickens <skylark2150(at)gmail.com> wrote:     

     

Hi David         Sorry to hear this. It seems like the end of an era as you have been a leader in the Europa community for so long. I suppose it is an inevitable outcome for all of us eventually. I have personally appreciated your support with magazine content over the years.    

         

    

         We are currently in Florida returning on the 11 November. It seems many new people in the club seem to want everything online so the next magazine could be my last. It will be interesting to see if anyone is prepared to continue to create an on line equivalent..    

         

    

         Regards    

         Tony    

         

      

           Sent from my iPhone     

           

       	  Quote: 	
		         On Oct 23, 2022, at 7:51 PM, davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk wrote:        

        

                   

Medical issues leave me facing the  loss of my class 2 medical and with it the ability to tour abroad - which is what has provided my main flying pleasure. So sadly I shall be parting with Delta Juliet. It is one of the most widely travelled Europas and at the same time one of the most lavishly equipped whilst  being one of the lighter 914/wobbly prop/monos flying. Amongst other things: Garmin G3X touch / G5 / Twin channel nav com radio with ILS & twin VOR / ADSB in and out / Garmin  three axis autopilot / Beringer wheel and brake / low hours 914 /  Woodcomp SR3000 N/W high twist prop / covered  trailer. I shall be prepared to part with it to a good home for a modest price. I am in the US until 10 November but as soon as I am home I will be happy to send full documentation on to anyone interested and happy to arrange a trial flight.       

David Joyce, GXSDJ

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