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M14P hot cylinders

 
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sapril001(at)hotmail.com
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 9:54 am    Post subject: M14P hot cylinders Reply with quote

Hi,

I have been helping a friend with a high temperature of the cylinder heads on his M14P engine,

The engine is installed in a Murphy Moose and the upper cylinders are geting hoter than the lower cylinders.
25 to 30 Deg C. Hoter than the lower cylinders.
The bafling is tight and there is no obstruction behind the cylinder heads to the passage of cooling air.
We have added ample cheeks to the cowling and we have re centered the front of the cowling that was a little low and was providing a larger opening below the prop spinner than above it. It did improve the cooling of the upper cylinders but we still have a big difference between the upper cylinder heads and the lower cylinders head.
Here are the reading from the MGL instrument that we bench checked with boiling water.

#1 :224 C
#2 :217 C
#3 :208 C
#4 :196 C
#5 :193 C
#6 :195 C
#7 :201 C
#8 :205 C
#9 :201C

On a warmer day after climbing.

#1 :242C
#2 :241C
#3 :234C
#4 :217C
#5 :216C
#6 :215C
#7 :221C
#8 :230C
#9 :223C

The oil temperature stay at 150 to 155 Deg F and the ol pressure is staying 75 to 80 PSI.
From another Moose I used to fly the ol temperature reach 185 Deg F to 195 F. And the ol pressure stay around 65 PSI.
The upper cylinders where also warmer in that Moose but not as much difference with the lower cylinders.

When I look at the cold oil temperature and relatively high ol pressure I Wonder if the ol is doing itjob of removing the heat of the engine, I mean the oil jet on the crank not spraying the cylinders. All cylinders are geting dripping ol from the crank but the lower cylinders would Always get more ol due to the gravity and would be cooler.
In cruse the temps are aceptable but there must be a reason for this 30 Deg C.difference.

Any idea would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Sylvain April





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dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 12:55 pm    Post subject: M14P hot cylinders Reply with quote

As a second test and disregarding the MGL instrument, immediately, and I mean immediately upon shutdown, using a laser temperature sensor point the laser at the exact same point on each cylinder and read the temps. I suggest at the flat surface around the base of each spark plug just outside the spark plug insert. Make note of the temps on each cylinder and compare them to the differences between the cylinder temps you’re seeing from the MGL. DENNIS

Sent from my iPhone

Quote:
On Sep 25, 2021, at 1:56 PM, Sylvain April <sapril001(at)hotmail.com> wrote:


Hi,

I have been helping a friend with a high temperature of the cylinder heads on his M14P engine,

The engine is installed in a Murphy Moose and the upper cylinders are geting hoter than the lower cylinders.
25 to 30 Deg C. Hoter than the lower cylinders.
The bafling is tight and there is no obstruction behind the cylinder heads to the passage of cooling air.
We have added ample cheeks to the cowling and we have re centered the front of the cowling that was a little low and was providing a larger opening below the prop spinner than above it. It did improve the cooling of the upper cylinders but we still have a big difference between the upper cylinder heads and the lower cylinders head.
Here are the reading from the MGL instrument that we bench checked with boiling water.

#1 :224 C
#2 :217 C
#3 :208 C
#4 :196 C
#5 :193 C
#6 :195 C
#7 :201 C
#8 :205 C
#9 :201C

On a warmer day after climbing.

#1 :242C
#2 :241C
#3 :234C
#4 :217C
#5 :216C
#6 :215C
#7 :221C
#8 :230C
#9 :223C

The oil temperature stay at 150 to 155 Deg F and the oïl pressure is staying 75 to 80 PSI.
From another Moose I used to fly the oïl temperature reach 185 Deg F to 195 F. And the oïl pressure stay around 65 PSI.
The upper cylinders where also warmer in that Moose but not as much difference with the lower cylinders.

When I look at the cold oil temperature and relatively high oïl pressure I Wonder if the oïl is doing it’job of removing the heat of the engine, I mean the oil jet on the crank not spraying the cylinders. All cylinders are geting dripping oïl from the crank but the lower cylinders would Always get more oïl due to the gravity and would be cooler.
In cruse the temps are aceptable but there must be a reason for this 30 Deg C.difference.

Any idea would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Sylvain April





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Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

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markbitterlich(at)embarqm
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:24 pm    Post subject: M14P hot cylinders Reply with quote

May I add a small point not to interfere with Dennis’s suggestion, but in fact supporting it? 

One of the things that has bit me in the tail more times than I can count in my field of expertise is believing everything that I see on a piece of test equipment as gospel.  Meaning, I see a reading of voltage, current, resistance, temperature, pressure … you name it … and I *ASSUME* it must be perfectly accurate.  Surprise.  Oftentimes it is not, due to a huge variety of reasons. 

Oil temps on the M-14 vary quite a bit depending on where they are measured from, CHT same thing, and the list goes on.  Very simply, before you think there is something wrong with the engine, first ask yourself how well it is running, then never forget to cast a sharp glance at the accuracy of the readings you are taking.

My 2 cents.

Mark Bitterlich
YAK-50 N50YK
SM.1019 N4756

From: owner-m14pengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-m14pengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Savarese
Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2021 4:55 PM
To: m14pengines-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: M14P hot cylinders

As a second test and disregarding the MGL instrument, immediately, and I mean immediately upon shutdown, using a laser temperature sensor point the laser at the exact same point on each cylinder and read the temps. I suggest at the flat surface around the base of each spark plug just outside the spark plug insert. Make note of the temps on each cylinder and compare them to the differences between the cylinder temps you’re seeing from the MGL.
DENNIS
Sent from my iPhone


On Sep 25, 2021, at 1:56 PM, Sylvain April <sapril001(at)hotmail.com> wrote:
Quote:


Hi,

I have been helping a friend with a high temperature of the cylinder heads on his M14P engine,

The engine is installed in a Murphy Moose and the upper cylinders are geting hoter than the lower cylinders.
25 to 30 Deg C. Hoter than the lower cylinders.
The bafling is tight and there is no obstruction behind the cylinder heads to the passage of cooling air.
We have added ample cheeks to the cowling and we have re centered the front of the cowling that was a little low and was providing a larger opening below the prop spinner than above it. It did improve the cooling of the upper cylinders but we still have a big difference between the upper cylinder heads and the lower cylinders head.
Here are the reading from the MGL instrument that we bench checked with boiling water.

#1 :224 C
#2 :217 C
#3 :208 C
#4 :196 C
#5 :193 C
#6 :195 C
#7 :201 C
#8 :205 C
#9 :201C

On a warmer day after climbing.

#1 :242C
#2 :241C
#3 :234C
#4 :217C
#5 :216C
#6 :215C
#7 :221C
#8 :230C
#9 :223C

The oil temperature stay at 150 to 155 Deg F and the oïl pressure is staying 75 to 80 PSI.
From another Moose I used to fly the oïl temperature reach 185 Deg F to 195 F. And the oïl pressure stay around 65 PSI.
The upper cylinders where also warmer in that Moose but not as much difference with the lower cylinders.

When I look at the cold oil temperature and relatively high oïl pressure I Wonder if the oïl is doing it’job of removing the heat of the engine, I mean the oil jet on the crank not spraying the cylinders. All cylinders are geting dripping oïl from the crank but the lower cylinders would Always get more oïl due to the gravity and would be cooler.
In cruse the temps are aceptable but there must be a reason for this 30 Deg C.difference.

Any idea would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Sylvain April




Envoyé à partir de Courrier pour Windows



- The Matronics M14PEngines-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?M14PEngines-List
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richard.goode(at)russiana
Guest





PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2021 6:22 am    Post subject: M14P hot cylinders Reply with quote

Hello Dennis,

One small point – was this sent to Matronics in the first place? Certainly I did not receive it!

Then I would make the point that these temperatures are high – remember that maximum continuous cylinder temperature is 220°C, and up to 240°C for short periods.

Then I would also say that the system of measurement is not that accurate, in my opinion, and the presence of very small amounts of dirt between cylinder head; sending washer and sparking plug can easily distort the figures.

And I think another issue is that the Murphy Moose is a big aeroplane and with a standard M 14 P it does need to work pretty hard to climb in high ambient temperatures.

Best wishes

Richard


RICHARD GOODE AEROBATICS
Rhodds Farm, Lyonshall, Hereford, HR5 3LW, UK
Tel: +44 (0)1544 340120 Fax: +44 (0)1544 340129
e-mail: richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com (richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com)
www.russianaeros.com
WORLD LEADERS IN RUSSIAN SPORTING AIRCRAFT & ENGINES
In partnership with Aerometal Kft, Hungary.


From: owner-m14pengines-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-m14pengines-list-server(at)matronics.com> On Behalf Of Anthony Savarese
Sent: 25 September 2021 21:55
To: m14pengines-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: M14P hot cylinders

As a second test and disregarding the MGL instrument, immediately, and I mean immediately upon shutdown, using a laser temperature sensor point the laser at the exact same point on each cylinder and read the temps. I suggest at the flat surface around the base of each spark plug just outside the spark plug insert. Make note of the temps on each cylinder and compare them to the differences between the cylinder temps you’re seeing from the MGL.
DENNIS
Sent from my iPhone

<![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]><![endif]>
Quote:

On Sep 25, 2021, at 1:56 PM, Sylvain April <sapril001(at)hotmail.com (sapril001(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:

Hi,

I have been helping a friend with a high temperature of the cylinder heads on his M14P engine,

The engine is installed in a Murphy Moose and the upper cylinders are geting hoter than the lower cylinders.
25 to 30 Deg C. Hoter than the lower cylinders.
The bafling is tight and there is no obstruction behind the cylinder heads to the passage of cooling air.
We have added ample cheeks to the cowling and we have re centered the front of the cowling that was a little low and was providing a larger opening below the prop spinner than above it. It did improve the cooling of the upper cylinders but we still have a big difference between the upper cylinder heads and the lower cylinders head.
Here are the reading from the MGL instrument that we bench checked with boiling water.

#1 :224 C
#2 :217 C
#3 :208 C
#4 :196 C
#5 :193 C
#6 :195 C
#7 :201 C
#8 :205 C
#9 :201C

On a warmer day after climbing.

#1 :242C
#2 :241C
#3 :234C
#4 :217C
#5 :216C
#6 :215C
#7 :221C
#8 :230C
#9 :223C

The oil temperature stay at 150 to 155 Deg F and the oïl pressure is staying 75 to 80 PSI.
From another Moose I used to fly the oïl temperature reach 185 Deg F to 195 F. And the oïl pressure stay around 65 PSI.
The upper cylinders where also warmer in that Moose but not as much difference with the lower cylinders.

When I look at the cold oil temperature and relatively high oïl pressure I Wonder if the oïl is doing it’job of removing the heat of the engine, I mean the oil jet on the crank not spraying the cylinders. All cylinders are geting dripping oïl from the crank but the lower cylinders would Always get more oïl due to the gravity and would be cooler.
In cruse the temps are aceptable but there must be a reason for this 30 Deg C.difference.

Any idea would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Sylvain April




Envoyé à partir de Courrier pour Windows



- The Matronics M14PEngines-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?M14PEngines-List
Back to top
dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest





PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:26 am    Post subject: M14P hot cylinders Reply with quote

Hello Richard,Yes, this was posted to the Matronics list, on the M14 Engines list. Not the Yak list.
I completely agree with your points about the CHT’s and the accuracy of the instrument. That was the reason I suggested the laser temperature gun/sensor. I was just trying to be low keyed about the instrument accuracy by suggesting an alternative temperature test. Personally, I’m not a proponent of any of the MGL equipment. Primarily because of my personal experiences with MGL stuff. If I had to put it in single crass word, that word would be “junk”.
I think he’s going to find the MGL instrument readings are nowhere close to the hand held laser gun.
Great to hear from you and best regards,
Dennis

Sent from my iPhone

Quote:
On Sep 26, 2021, at 10:24 AM, Richard Goode <richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com> wrote:

 <![endif]--> Clean DocumentEmail false false false EN-GB X-NONE X-NONE {8F75CBF0-B84C-41F9-9F32-375AD1279F59} 1860617557984 <![endif]--> <![endif]-->/* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0cm; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;} <![endif]--> <![endif]--> <![endif]-->
Hello Dennis,

One small point – was this sent to Matronics in the first place? Certainly I did not receive it!

Then I would make the point that these temperatures are high – remember that maximum continuous cylinder temperature is 220°C, and up to 240°C for short periods.

Then I would also say that the system of measurement is not that accurate, in my opinion, and the presence of very small amounts of dirt between cylinder head; sending washer and sparking plug can easily distort the figures.

And I think another issue is that the Murphy Moose is a big aeroplane and with a standard M 14 P it does need to work pretty hard to climb in high ambient temperatures.

Best wishes

Richard


RICHARD GOODE AEROBATICS
Rhodds Farm, Lyonshall, Hereford, HR5 3LW, UK
Tel: +44 (0)1544 340120 Fax: +44 (0)1544 340129
e-mail: richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com (richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com)
www.russianaeros.com
WORLD LEADERS IN RUSSIAN SPORTING AIRCRAFT & ENGINES
In partnership with Aerometal Kft, Hungary.


From: owner-m14pengines-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-m14pengines-list-server(at)matronics.com> On Behalf Of Anthony Savarese
Sent: 25 September 2021 21:55
To: m14pengines-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: M14P hot cylinders

As a second test and disregarding the MGL instrument, immediately, and I mean immediately upon shutdown, using a laser temperature sensor point the laser at the exact same point on each cylinder and read the temps. I suggest at the flat surface around the base of each spark plug just outside the spark plug insert. Make note of the temps on each cylinder and compare them to the differences between the cylinder temps you’re seeing from the MGL.
DENNIS
Sent from my iPhone

Quote:

On Sep 25, 2021, at 1:56 PM, Sylvain April <sapril001(at)hotmail.com (sapril001(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:

Hi,

I have been helping a friend with a high temperature of the cylinder heads on his M14P engine,

The engine is installed in a Murphy Moose and the upper cylinders are geting hoter than the lower cylinders.
25 to 30 Deg C. Hoter than the lower cylinders.
The bafling is tight and there is no obstruction behind the cylinder heads to the passage of cooling air.
We have added ample cheeks to the cowling and we have re centered the front of the cowling that was a little low and was providing a larger opening below the prop spinner than above it. It did improve the cooling of the upper cylinders but we still have a big difference between the upper cylinder heads and the lower cylinders head.
Here are the reading from the MGL instrument that we bench checked with boiling water.

#1 :224 C
#2 :217 C
#3 :208 C
#4 :196 C
#5 :193 C
#6 :195 C
#7 :201 C
#8:205 C
#9 :201C

On a warmer day after climbing.

#1 :242C
#2 :241C
#3 :234C
#4 :217C
#5 :216C
#6 :215C
#7 :221C
#8 :230C
#9 :223C

The oil temperature stay at 150 to 155 Deg F and the oïl pressure is staying 75 to 80 PSI.
From another Moose I used to fly the oïl temperature reach 185 Deg F to 195 F. And the oïl pressure stay around 65 PSI.
The upper cylinders where also warmer in that Moose but not as much difference with the lower cylinders.

When I look at the cold oil temperature and relatively high oïl pressure I Wonder if the oïl is doing it’job of removing the heat of the engine, I mean the oil jet on the crank not spraying the cylinders. All cylinders are geting dripping oïl from the crank but the lower cylinders would Always get more oïl due to the gravity and would be cooler.
In cruse the temps are aceptable but there must be a reason for this 30 Deg C.difference.

Any idea would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Sylvain April




Envoyé à partir de Courrier pour Windows




- The Matronics M14PEngines-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?M14PEngines-List
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