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Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1700
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Thu May 13, 2021 6:25 am Post subject: opinions needed: Apollo/Garmin GNS480 vs Garmin 430

Given the install costs, whether in time/effort, or in paying someone to 

install, seems to me a bad idea to consider the 480 that is no longer 

supported, the 430 if not upgraded to WAAS, which is barely supported, 

and even the WAAS unit that is likely to go unsupported within the next 

5 years. I made the choice to go to a 650 about 7-8 years ago for that 

reason, and they are ever closer to becoming boat anchors.

So, to me the discussion about ease of use between the Apollo designed 

units and the Garmin is greatly overshadowed by their expected useful 

life. Both original units are over 20 yrs old, using computer chips not 

made for 20 yrs, and even the upgraded WAAS units are already 13 yrs 

old. It seems like very few avionics with chips and displays that wear 

out are supported much past 20 yrs and some much less.



On 5/13/2021 6:54 AM, Charlie England wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Have any of you IFR flyers flown both the 430 & 480, and can give a 

 comparison of the two? I'm toying with the idea of adding an approach 

 certified GPS to the RV, but I'm 'not yet rated', so I truly don't know 

 what I don't know. I do know that the 430 is far more common, and the 

 480 seems to sell for less money in the used market. I've heard only two 

 opinions comparing the two; diametrically opposed. Each said their 

 choice was far easier to use in an IFR environment. Not an adequate 

 sample size, so I'd like to get a bit more of a consensus.

 

 Thanks,

 

 Charlie

 

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_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

art(at)zemon.name
Guest

Posted: Thu May 13, 2021 6:44 am Post subject: opinions needed: Apollo/Garmin GNS480 vs Garmin 430

Charlie,



I put a Garmin GPS175 into my plane to get the IFR GPS. Check out that unit.



    -- Art Z.



Sent from my phone. Please excuse brevity and bizarre typos.



On Thu, May 13, 2021, 9:11 AM Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Have any of you IFR flyers flown both the 430 & 480, and can give a comparison of the two?  I'm toying with the idea of adding an approach certified GPS to the RV, but   I'm 'not yet rated', so I truly don't know what I don't know. I do know that the 430 is far more common, and the 480 seems to sell for less money in the used market. I've heard only two opinions comparing the two; diametrically opposed. Each said their choice was far easier to use in an IFR environment. Not an adequate sample size, so I'd like to get a bit more of a consensus.

Thanks,

Charlie

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Ceengland

Joined: 11 Oct 2020
Posts: 379
Location: MS

Posted: Thu May 13, 2021 7:20 am Post subject: opinions needed: Apollo/Garmin GNS480 vs Garmin 430

Hi Art,

       Thanks; I'm aware of the 175. I'm sure it's a fine unit, but it       ain't cheap, considering that it only has one function. Both the       430 & 480 include a comm radio and an alternate (backup) means       of nav/approach. GPS outages here in the South are, if not       frequent, common enough that I wouldn't want to be dependent       solely on GPS in IFR conditions.

       

       Charlie

       

       On 5/13/2021 9:42 AM, Art Zemon wrote:

     

      	  Quote: 	
		                Charlie,         

         

         I put a Garmin GPS175 into my plane to get the           IFR GPS. Check out that unit.

           

               -- Art Z.

             

             Sent from my phone. Please excuse brevity and bizarre typos.

         

       

       

                On Thu, May 13, 2021, 9:11 AM           Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

         

          	  Quote: 	
		                          Have any               of you IFR flyers flown both the 430 & 480, and can               give a comparison of the two? I'm toying with the idea of               adding an approach certified GPS to the RV, but                I'm 'not yet rated', so I truly don't know what I don't               know. I do know that the 430 is far more common, and the               480 seems to sell for less money in the used market. I've               heard only two opinions comparing the two; diametrically               opposed. Each said their choice was far easier to use in               an IFR environment. Not an adequate sample size, so I'd               like to get a bit more of a consensus.

             

             

             Thanks,

             

             

             Charlie

           

           

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_________________
Charlie

cluros(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 13, 2021 9:16 am Post subject: opinions needed: Apollo/Garmin GNS480 vs Garmin 430

Charlie,



Your diametrically opposed opinions are both correct. The 480 has more functionality and is more complex but once you learn how to use it, it is easier for complex IFR. The 430 is much more simple and intuitive so much easier to pick up and use for simple flights and IFR procedures.

The common problem with both is lack of support. The 430W is still supported by Garmin ... today. It might not be tomorrow.





On Thu, May 13, 2021 at 7:47 AM Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name (art(at)zemon.name)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Charlie,



I put a Garmin GPS175 into my plane to get the IFR GPS. Check out that unit.



    -- Art Z.



Sent from my phone. Please excuse brevity and bizarre typos.



On Thu, May 13, 2021, 9:11 AM Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Have any of you IFR flyers flown both the 430 & 480, and can give a comparison of the two?  I'm toying with the idea of adding an approach certified GPS to the RV, but   I'm 'not yet rated', so I truly don't know what I don't know. I do know that the 430 is far more common, and the 480 seems to sell for less money in the used market. I've heard only two opinions comparing the two; diametrically opposed. Each said their choice was far easier to use in an IFR environment. Not an adequate sample size, so I'd like to get a bit more of a consensus.

Thanks,

Charlie

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jquinn3

Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 5

Posted: Thu May 13, 2021 9:21 am Post subject: opinions needed: Apollo/Garmin GNS480 vs Garmin 430

Don,

Garmin dropped all maint/repair support for the 480 last year. May explain why costs are lower.

On Thu, May 13, 2021 at 10:48 AM rd2 <rd2(at)dejazzd.com (rd2(at)dejazzd.com)> wrote:



[quote]Or its bigger brother GNX375, which adds an ADS-B (Out and In) x-ponder to the GPS175. Of course with GNX375 you get 2 equipment pieces out, if one fails and needs to go to the shop.



I have found the GPS175/GNX375 leaning curve not steep and the touchscreen fine, even for aging eyes, despite the small dimensions.

Rumen



---

Ceengland

Joined: 11 Oct 2020
Posts: 379
Location: MS

Posted: Thu May 13, 2021 10:13 am Post subject: opinions needed: Apollo/Garmin GNS480 vs Garmin 430

Again, serious money vs       features/abilities. I already have a Garmin 327 in my flying -6,       and in my -7 project. I just added ADSB out/in to the -6 via the       uAvionics EchoUAT *with an approved position source* for ~$1400. I       can't make sense of paying 2 or 3 times that for the 'gubmnt' to       track non-stop my every move.

       

       I'm not yet instrument rated; may never be. I don't fly enough to       justify the rather extreme expense of the new tech. I'm looking       for an affordable option that would enable training, if I decide       to pursue the rating. 

       

       Charlie

       

       On 5/13/2021 10:44 AM, rd2 wrote:

     

     [quote]              body {height: 100%; color:#000000; font-size:14pt; font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;}       Or its bigger brother GNX375, which adds an ADS-B (Out and         In) x-ponder to the GPS175. Of course with GNX375 you get 2         equipment pieces out, if one fails and needs to go to the shop.

       

       I have found the GPS175/GNX375 leaning curve not steep and         the touchscreen fine, even for aging eyes, despite the small         dimensions.

       Rumen       

              

       ---

_________________
Charlie

Ceengland

Joined: 11 Oct 2020
Posts: 379
Location: MS

Posted: Thu May 13, 2021 10:23 am Post subject: opinions needed: Apollo/Garmin GNS480 vs Garmin 430

*That* is a useful data point. I've       been expecting for some time that support to disappear for the       430, but I suppose that there are just too many in service for       Garmin to take the heat over dropping support.

       

       Of course, at the rates they are charging, they've just about       stopped supporting *anything* they make.

       

       It's time for the FAA to correct their rules for IFR GPS, and       align them with the rules for VHF nav & ILS (at least in       homebuilts). If it works, it's legal. That would open the door for       us to use open-sourced georeferenced plates in GRT, etc EFIS, just       like is already legal with non-TSO nav/ILS radios feeding the EFIS       display. If a $500 GPS puck is good enough for ADSB position, why       isn't it good enough for IFR nav & approaches (with current       plates, of course)?

       

       Charlie

       

       On 5/13/2021 12:20 PM, James Quinn wrote:

     

     [quote]                       Don,

         Garmin           dropped all maint/repair support for the 480 last year. May           explain why costs are lower.

       

       

                On Thu, May 13, 2021 at 10:48           AM rd2 <rd2(at)dejazzd.com (rd2(at)dejazzd.com)> wrote:

         

         [quote]                        Or its bigger brother GNX375, which adds an ADS-B (Out               and In) x-ponder to the GPS175. Of course with GNX375 you               get 2 equipment pieces out, if one fails and needs to go               to the shop.

             

             I have found the GPS175/GNX375 leaning curve not steep               and the touchscreen fine, even for aging eyes, despite the               small dimensions.

             Rumen

             

             

             

             ---

_________________
Charlie

Ceengland

Joined: 11 Oct 2020
Posts: 379
Location: MS

Posted: Thu May 13, 2021 10:30 am Post subject: opinions needed: Apollo/Garmin GNS480 vs Garmin 430

That would likely explain the disparity       of opinion. Also sounds like I'd be better off with the 430, since       I'll never (if ever) be a contributor to controllers' heavy IFR       work load. 

       

       On 5/13/2021 12:15 PM, Sebastien wrote:

     

      	  Quote: 	
		                Charlie,         

         

         Your diametrically opposed opinions are both correct. The           480 has more functionality and is more complex but once you           learn how to use it, it is easier for complex IFR. The 430 is           much more simple and intuitive so much easier to pick up and           use for simple flights and IFR procedures.

         

         

         The common problem with both is lack of support. The 430W           is still supported by Garmin ... today. It might not be           tomorrow.

       

       

       

       

                On Thu, May 13, 2021 at 7:47           AM Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name (art(at)zemon.name)>           wrote:

         

          	  Quote: 	
		             Charlie,             

             

             I put a Garmin GPS175 into my plane to get               the IFR GPS. Check out that unit.

               

                   -- Art Z.

                 

                 Sent from my phone. Please excuse brevity and bizarre                 typos.

             

           

           

                        On Thu, May 13, 2021, 9:11               AM Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)>               wrote:

             

              	  Quote: 	
		                                  Have                   any of you IFR flyers flown both the 430 & 480,                   and can give a comparison of the two? I'm toying with                   the idea of adding an approach certified GPS to the                   RV, but                    I'm 'not yet rated', so I truly don't know what I                   don't know. I do know that the 430 is far more                   common, and the 480 seems to sell for less money in                   the used market. I've heard only two opinions                   comparing the two; diametrically opposed. Each said                   their choice was far easier to use in an IFR                   environment. Not an adequate sample size, so I'd like                   to get a bit more of a consensus.

                 

                 

                 Thanks,

                 

                 

                 Charlie

               

               

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_________________
Charlie

Ceengland

Joined: 11 Oct 2020
Posts: 379
Location: MS

Posted: Fri May 14, 2021 8:23 am Post subject: opinions needed: Apollo/Garmin GNS480 vs Garmin 430

Unimpeachable logic; which reduces me to doing nothing (if I'm honest, the most sensible thing), or to investing much less money in a much older/cheaper nav/ILS radio, & possibly something like a KLN94, which I'm sure is also unsupported but the pain of entry (and exit) is much lower.

Spending 10 to 20 AMUs for what could end up being, for all practical purposes in my flying world, 'art', just isn't going to happen.

On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 10:42 AM Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)>

 Given the install costs, whether in time/effort, or in paying someone to 

 install, seems to me a bad idea to consider the 480 that is no longer 

 supported, the 430 if not upgraded to WAAS, which is barely supported, 

 and even the WAAS unit that is likely to go unsupported within the next 

 5 years. I made the choice to go to a 650 about 7-8 years ago for that 

 reason, and they are ever closer to becoming boat anchors.

 So, to me the discussion about ease of use between the Apollo designed 

 units and the Garmin is greatly overshadowed by their expected useful 

 life. Both original units are over 20 yrs old, using computer chips not 

 made for 20 yrs, and even the upgraded WAAS units are already 13 yrs 

 old. It seems like very few avionics with chips and displays that wear 

 out are supported much past 20 yrs and some much less.

 On 5/13/2021 6:54 AM, Charlie England wrote:

 > Have any of you IFR flyers flown both the 430 & 480, and can give a 

 > comparison of the two? I'm toying with the idea of adding an approach 

 > certified GPS to the RV, but I'm 'not yet rated', so I truly don't know 

 > what I don't know. I do know that the 430 is far more common, and the 

 > 480 seems to sell for less money in the used market. I've heard only two 

 > opinions comparing the two; diametrically opposed. Each said their 

 > choice was far easier to use in an IFR environment. Not an adequate 

 > sample size, so I'd like to get a bit more of a consensus.

 > 

 > Thanks,

 > 

 > Charlie

_________________
Charlie

david(at)carter.net
Guest

Posted: Fri May 14, 2021 8:44 am Post subject: opinions needed: Apollo/Garmin GNS480 vs Garmin 430

Have you considered an SL-30? 



On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 12:25 PM Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Unimpeachable logic; which reduces me to doing nothing (if I'm honest, the most sensible thing), or to investing much less money in a much older/cheaper nav/ILS radio, & possibly something like a KLN94, which I'm sure is also unsupported but the pain of entry (and exit) is much lower.

Spending 10 to 20 AMUs for what could end up being, for all practical purposes in my flying world, 'art', just isn't going to happen.

On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 10:42 AM Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)>

 

 Given the install costs, whether in time/effort, or in paying someone to 

 install, seems to me a bad idea to consider the 480 that is no longer 

 supported, the 430 if not upgraded to WAAS, which is barely supported, 

 and even the WAAS unit that is likely to go unsupported within the next 

 5 years. I made the choice to go to a 650 about 7-8 years ago for that 

 reason, and they are ever closer to becoming boat anchors.

 So, to me the discussion about ease of use between the Apollo designed 

 units and the Garmin is greatly overshadowed by their expected useful 

 life. Both original units are over 20 yrs old, using computer chips not 

 made for 20 yrs, and even the upgraded WAAS units are already 13 yrs 

 old. It seems like very few avionics with chips and displays that wear 

 out are supported much past 20 yrs and some much less.

 

 On 5/13/2021 6:54 AM, Charlie England wrote:

 > Have any of you IFR flyers flown both the 430 & 480, and can give a 

 > comparison of the two? I'm toying with the idea of adding an approach 

 > certified GPS to the RV, but I'm 'not yet rated', so I truly don't know 

 > what I don't know. I do know that the 430 is far more common, and the 

 > 480 seems to sell for less money in the used market. I've heard only two 

 > opinions comparing the two; diametrically opposed. Each said their 

 > choice was far easier to use in an IFR environment. Not an adequate 

 > sample size, so I'd like to get a bit more of a consensus.

 > 

 > Thanks,

 > 

 > Charlie 	
 

 	




-- 

---

David Carter

david(at)carter.net (david(at)carter.net)

n233ee(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 14, 2021 5:39 pm Post subject: opinions needed: Apollo/Garmin GNS480 vs Garmin 430

I am on your side Charlie England!  

 	  Quote: 	
		  On May 14, 2021, at 11:27 AM, Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> wrote:

Unimpeachable logic; which reduces me to doing nothing (if I'm honest, the most sensible thing), or to investing much less money in a much older/cheaper nav/ILS radio, & possibly something like a KLN94, which I'm sure is also unsupported but the pain of entry (and exit) is much lower.

Spending 10 to 20 AMUs for what could end up being, for all practical purposes in my flying world, 'art', just isn't going to happen.

On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 10:42 AM Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)>

 Given the install costs, whether in time/effort, or in paying someone to 

 install, seems to me a bad idea to consider the 480 that is no longer 

 supported, the 430 if not upgraded to WAAS, which is barely supported, 

 and even the WAAS unit that is likely to go unsupported within the next 

 5 years. I made the choice to go to a 650 about 7-8 years ago for that 

 reason, and they are ever closer to becoming boat anchors.

 So, to me the discussion about ease of use between the Apollo designed 

 units and the Garmin is greatly overshadowed by their expected useful 

 life. Both original units are over 20 yrs old, using computer chips not 

 made for 20 yrs, and even the upgraded WAAS units are already 13 yrs 

 old. It seems like very few avionics with chips and displays that wear 

 out are supported much past 20 yrs and some much less.

 On 5/13/2021 6:54 AM, Charlie England wrote:

 > Have any of you IFR flyers flown both the 430 & 480, and can give a 

 > comparison of the two? I'm toying with the idea of adding an approach 

 > certified GPS to the RV, but I'm 'not yet rated', so I truly don't know 

 > what I don't know. I do know that the 430 is far more common, and the 

 > 480 seems to sell for less money in the used market. I've heard only two 

 > opinions comparing the two; diametrically opposed. Each said their 

 > choice was far easier to use in an IFR environment. Not an adequate 

 > sample size, so I'd like to get a bit more of a consensus.

 > 

 > Thanks,

 > 

 > Charlie

Ceengland

Joined: 11 Oct 2020
Posts: 379
Location: MS

Posted: Fri May 14, 2021 5:43 pm Post subject: opinions needed: Apollo/Garmin GNS480 vs Garmin 430

Certainly. Used, the market prices I've       monitored over the past few years are within a few hundred dollars       of non-WAAS 430s. I've got an SL40 in the panel now; I've       considered purchasing used a VAL 2000 (uses the SL30 protocol),       and a cheap non-WAAS gps to go with it.

       

       I really can't make any purchase make financial sense, but I need       to at least be able to deceive myself on the value.

       

       On 5/14/2021 11:42 AM, David Carter wrote:

     

      	  Quote: 	
		                Have you considered an SL-30? 

       

                    On Fri, May 14, 2021 at             12:25 PM Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)>             wrote:

           

            	  Quote: 	
		                                               Unimpeachable logic;                   which reduces me to doing nothing (if I'm honest, the                   most sensible thing), or to investing much less money                   in a much older/cheaper nav/ILS radio, & possibly                   something like a KLN94, which I'm sure is also                   unsupported but the pain of entry (and exit) is much                   lower.

                 

                 

                 Spending                   10 to 20 AMUs for what could end up being, for all                   practical purposes in my flying world, 'art', just                   isn't going to happen.

               

               

                                On Fri, May 14, 2021                   at 10:42 AM Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)>                   wrote:

                 

                  	  Quote: 	
		  -->                   AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen                   <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)>

                   

                   Given the install costs, whether in time/effort, or in                   paying someone to 

                   install, seems to me a bad idea to consider the 480                   that is no longer 

                   supported, the 430 if not upgraded to WAAS, which is                   barely supported, 

                   and even the WAAS unit that is likely to go                   unsupported within the next 

                   5 years. I made the choice to go to a 650 about 7-8                   years ago for that 

                   reason, and they are ever closer to becoming boat                   anchors.

                   So, to me the discussion about ease of use between the                   Apollo designed 

                   units and the Garmin is greatly overshadowed by their                   expected useful 

                   life. Both original units are over 20 yrs old, using                   computer chips not 

                   made for 20 yrs, and even the upgraded WAAS units are                   already 13 yrs 

                   old. It seems like very few avionics with chips and                   displays that wear 

                   out are supported much past 20 yrs and some much less.

                   

                   On 5/13/2021 6:54 AM, Charlie England wrote:

                   > Have any of you IFR flyers flown both the 430                   & 480, and can give a 

                   > comparison of the two? I'm toying with the idea                   of adding an approach 

                   > certified GPS to the RV, but I'm 'not yet rated',                   so I truly don't know 

                   > what I don't know. I do know that the 430 is far                   more common, and the 

                   > 480 seems to sell for less money in the used                   market. I've heard only two 

                   > opinions comparing the two; diametrically                   opposed. Each said their 

                   > choice was far easier to use in an IFR                   environment. Not an adequate 

                   > sample size, so I'd like to get a bit more of a                   consensus.

                   > 

                   > Thanks,

                   > 

                   > Charlie 	
                  

               

             

           	
         

       

       -- 

       ---

         David Carter

         david(at)carter.net (david(at)carter.net)

     	
     

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_________________
Charlie

art(at)zemon.name
Guest

Posted: Sat May 15, 2021 4:10 am Post subject: opinions needed: Apollo/Garmin GNS480 vs Garmin 430

Charlie,

I have hundreds of hours flying behind a KLN94; I had one in my Arrow (which I sold when I bought my BD-4C kit). I would not willingly fly with a KLN94 again. Compared to the current generation of Garmins, the user interface is horrible. The screen is tiny. And the database update process is atrocious.

To update the KLN94 database, you have a couple of choices. a) You can connect a computer running Windows 95 (that is the last version supported by Bendix King's software, IIRC) to the KLN94 via a serial cable (yes! serial, not USB) and run the magic software for about 20 minutes. b) You can use a specially modified CompactFlash card which has to be written with a no-longer-produced CF card writer by the magic software.

Yes, the Garmins are expensive. But having used them, they are worth every penny. Garmin got the UI right.

I have VAL nav and comm radios. They are OK. Would I buy them again? Probably. Are they as good as Garmins? No. Like you, I bought them for the size and because the SL30 and SL40 are pretty darned expensive.

I don't remember what you have for primary instrumentation. I installed an MGL glass panel. It's built-in GPS is excellent. I happily used it for primary navigation before installing the GPS175. If you don't need your GPS to be IFR-certified, have you considered something like this? It looks like you can get a whole MGL MX1 system for under $2000. See https://www.michiganavionics.com/product-category/efis/

One last thought, the MGL GPS antenna is a little puck which you install inside the airplane. I thought that was bogus but did as instructed. I have it under the windshield, and it works beautifully, regardless of my direction of flight. My airplane has an aluminum fuselage. The MGL GPS actually tracks better than the Garmin.

Cheers,

    -- Art Z.

On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 11:35 AM Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Unimpeachable logic; which reduces me to doing nothing (if I'm honest, the most sensible thing), or to investing much less money in a much older/cheaper nav/ILS radio, & possibly something like a KLN94, which I'm sure is also unsupported but the pain of entry (and exit) is much lower.

	


-- 

https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/Friendship is like a stone. A stone has no value, but when you rub two stones together properly, sparks of fire emerge. 

Rabbi Mordechai of Lechovitz

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