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AdventureD

Joined: 13 Jan 2021
Posts: 14

Posted: Sat Jan 23, 2021 12:14 pm Post subject: Small battery choice

Ordering two batteries for my ship (Z14, rear bats).  Some years ago, the good doctor recommended three:



 	  Quote: 	
		  A few exemplar brands and part numbers are:

Panasonic LC-RD1217

Odyssey PC680

Power Sonic PSH-12180FR 	




The Power Sonic is cheapest (only $60! ... quite a schoke after spending $600 on my Mooney batteries!) and available at Amazon.  I figure there is not a lot of difference between these, but wanted to check if anyone had reason to pick one over the other (or another in same roughly 7"-7"-3" profile).



Cheers,

Dan

yellowduckduo(at)gmail.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 23, 2021 12:38 pm Post subject: Small battery choice

I've had very good results from the Dekka power sports batteries for 

many years.Â  The last ones I bought were ordered for pickup at Lowes.Â  

American made.

Ken

On 23/01/2021 3:14 PM, AdventureD wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Ordering two batteries for my ship (Z14, rear bats).  Some years ago, the good doctor recommended three:

> A few exemplar brands and part numbers are:

> Panasonic LC-RD1217

> Odyssey PC680

> Power Sonic PSH-12180FR

 The Power Sonic is cheapest (only $60! ... quite a schoke after spending $600 on my Mooney batteries!) and available at Amazon.  I figure there is not a lot of difference between these, but wanted to check if anyone had reason to pick one over the other (or another in same roughly 7"-7"-3" profile).

 Cheers,

 Dan

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=500386#500386

Ceengland

Joined: 11 Oct 2020
Posts: 379
Location: MS

Posted: Sat Jan 23, 2021 2:52 pm Post subject: Small battery choice

On Sat, Jan 23, 2021 at 2:20 PM AdventureD <dobrien(at)microfoundations.com (dobrien(at)microfoundations.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "AdventureD" <dobrien(at)microfoundations.com (dobrien(at)microfoundations.com)>

 Ordering two batteries for my ship (Z14, rear bats).Â  Some years ago, the good doctor recommended three:

 > A few exemplar brands and part numbers are:

 > Panasonic LC-RD1217

 > Odyssey PC680

 > Power Sonic PSH-12180FR

 The Power Sonic is cheapest (only $60! ... quite a schoke after spending $600 on my Mooney batteries!) and available at Amazon.Â  I figure there is not a lot of difference between these, but wanted to check if anyone had reason to pick one over the other (or another in same roughly 7"-7"-3" profile).

 Cheers,

 Dan

Hi Dan,

I've run Power Sonic, and at least 2 or 3 other 'no name' brands in a/c overÂ the past 20+ years (probably everything *except* Odyssey), and I've never been able to detect any 'real world' difference among the brands. I buy the cheapest version I can find at the time, and it 'just works'. FWIW, there's been some internet chatter lately among the RV-x drivers that the current (pardon the pun) crop of OdysseysÂ have had less than stellar lifespans (and they obviously extract a premium from your pocketbook). I've always gotten 4-6 years out of the no-name versions, with the only exception being one that had a pin holeÂ in the case (shipping damage that I missed prior to installation). Even it lasted about a year before I noticed diminished capacity.

FWIW, there are some higher AH versions available in almost identical case sizes. The naming conventionÂ  for most is like the PowerSonic: 12(voltage)18(AH)followed by another zero. IfÂ  you search for '12200 SLA battery' or '12220 SLA battery' (and read the specs carefully), you can get a 20 AH or 22AH that will fit in the same space, for about the same money. One thing to notice on the 'no names' is that many are intended for deep discharge applications (powered wheelchairs, etc), and will have slightly higher internal resistance than a PC680 'starting battery'. By going to a 20 AH or 22AH version, the internal impedance will be roughly the same as the PC680 (meaning same or better CCA), and the battery's *capacity* (total energy content) will be 10%-15% greater than a PC680 (stuff will run longer after an alternator failure).Â 

My experience since late in the last century; YMMV, etc etc.

Charlie

_________________
Charlie

AdventureD

Joined: 13 Jan 2021
Posts: 14

Posted: Sat Jan 23, 2021 2:59 pm Post subject: Re: Small battery choice

A bit more on this -- with the redundancy I have in the Z14 system, I am not looking for a high $$ battery.  I am happy to change one out every year IF the batteries do a good job cranking the engine.  I have a high compression IO550, and the ability to close the cross feed to crank.  How can I tell from the data sheets whether these batteries either alone or in combination are up to the task?  The Power Sonic datasheet reports a max of 270 amps for 5 seconds.  There seems to be all kinds of different reports online about what is required to start an engine.  I don't want to get batters that aren't up to the task.



Any thoughts appreciated.



Dan

AdventureD

Joined: 13 Jan 2021
Posts: 14

Posted: Sat Jan 23, 2021 3:04 pm Post subject: Re: Small battery choice

Charlie, what engine are you cranking?



Best,

Dan

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1700
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Sat Jan 23, 2021 4:04 pm Post subject: Small battery choice

Certainly not my experience. In aircraft, in Aridzona the typical 

Concorde or Gill is good for 3-3.5 years. I have an Odyssey in my 

homebuilt...a bigger 925 which has served well for 6 years. My tug uses 

batteries in the size you are talking about. The manufacturer put in 

Duracells. I tried generic and got 4 months. Paid twice as much for the 

Duracells, and they are doing quite well.



On 1/23/2021 3:45 PM, Charlie England wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 On Sat, Jan 23, 2021 at 2:20 PM AdventureD <dobrien(at)microfoundations.com 

 <mailto:dobrien(at)microfoundations.com>> wrote:

 

     

 Hi Dan,

 

 I've run Power Sonic, and at least 2 or 3 other 'no name' brands in a/c 

 overÂ the past 20+ years (probably everything *except* Odyssey), and I've 

 never been able to detect any 'real world' difference among the brands. 

 I buy the cheapest version I can find at the time, and it 'just works'. 

 FWIW, there's been some internet chatter lately among the RV-x drivers 

 that the current (pardon the pun) crop of OdysseysÂ have had less than 

 stellar lifespans (and they obviously extract a premium from your 

 pocketbook). I've always gotten 4-6 years out of the no-name versions, 

 with the only exception being one that had a pin holeÂ in the case 

 (shipping damage that I missed prior to installation). Even it lasted 

 about a year before I noticed diminished capacity.

 

 FWIW, there are some higher AH versions available in almost identical 

 case sizes. The naming conventionÂ  for most is like the PowerSonic: 

 12(voltage)18(AH)followed by another zero. IfÂ  you search for '12200 SLA 

 battery' or '12220 SLA battery' (and read the specs carefully), you can 

 get a 20 AH or 22AH that will fit in the same space, for about the same 

 money. One thing to notice on the 'no names' is that many are intended 

 for deep discharge applications (powered wheelchairs, etc), and will 

 have slightly higher internal resistance than a PC680 'starting 

 battery'. By going to a 20 AH or 22AH version, the internal impedance 

 will be roughly the same as the PC680 (meaning same or better CCA), and 

 the battery's *capacity* (total energy content) will be 10%-15% greater 

 than a PC680 (stuff will run longer after an alternator failure).

 

 My experience since late in the last century; YMMV, etc etc.

 

 Charlie

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

user9253

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1908
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

Posted: Sat Jan 23, 2021 4:50 pm Post subject: Re: Small battery choice

Compare the weight.  Some batteries made in China claim to be 18 or 22 AH.  

But when you look at the weight, they weigh less than a PC680 (15.4 pounds).

One deceiving trick is to use a larger case than necessary to hold the meager contents.

_________________
Joe Gores

Ceengland

Joined: 11 Oct 2020
Posts: 379
Location: MS

Posted: Sat Jan 23, 2021 6:21 pm Post subject: Small battery choice

On 1/23/2021 5:04 PM, AdventureD wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Charlie, what engine are you cranking?



 Best,

 Dan



O-320 8.5-1 compression for most of that time. Joe makes a reasonable 
	


point for reality checks, but if you parallel a pair, just about 

anything you purchase would crank just about any engine you choose.



Charlie



-- 

This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.

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_________________
Charlie

user9253

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1908
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

Posted: Sat Jan 23, 2021 7:23 pm Post subject: Re: Small battery choice

Here is another option: Mighty Max ML22-12GEL 12 Volt 22 AH

Can be ordered from Home Depot or Lowes

_________________
Joe Gores

Ceengland

Joined: 11 Oct 2020
Posts: 379
Location: MS

Posted: Sat Jan 23, 2021 7:59 pm Post subject: Small battery choice

On 1/23/2021 9:23 PM, user9253 wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Here is another option: Mighty Max ML22-12GEL 12 Volt 22 AH

 Can be ordered from Home Depot or Lowes



 --------

 Joe Gores

That looks like a reasonable option to me.
	




One measure for comparison (the easiest to find) is CCA (cold cranking 

amps). A harder one to find in docs is internal resistance (impedance). 

The PC680 is 7 milliohms (0.007). Most of the no-name stuff will be 

around 0.008-0.015. The MM referenced is 0.014, which is still plenty 

good enough to crank a 4 cyl Lyc, and would probably crank a 6 without 

too much effort.

Odyssey

https://www.odysseybattery.com/products/ods-agm16l-battery-pc680/



MightyMax

https://smile.amazon.com/Mighty-Max-Battery-Brand-Product/dp/B01JNYYXII/ref=smi_www_rco2_go_smi_g4368549507?_encoding=UTF8&%2AVersion%2A=1&%2Aentries%2A=0&ie=UTF8



Charlie

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_________________
Charlie

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2021 7:17 am Post subject: Small battery choice

At 04:59 PM 1/23/2021, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "AdventureD" <dobrien(at)microfoundations.com>



 A bit more on this -- with the redundancy I have in the Z14 system, I am not looking for a high $$ battery.  I am happy to change one out every year IF the batteries do a good job cranking the engine.  I have a high compression IO550, and the ability to close the cross feed to crank.  How can I tell from the data sheets whether these batteries either alone or in combination are up to the task? 	


   The data sheets are no help. Too many variables.

   Hands-on experience and observation are orders

   of the day.  



  	  Quote: 	
		  The Power Sonic datasheet reports a max of 270 amps for 5 seconds.  There seems to be all kinds of different reports online about what is required to start an engine.  I don't want to get batters that aren't up to the task. 	


   They will be fine for a time . . . the question is

   how long based on how YOU use them. The varied

   'reports' are understandable for there are few

   constants. Hence observation/experience data will

   be all over the map.



   Give them a try and let us know what YOU observe.

   



 

   Bob . . .



   Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes

   survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane

   out of that stuff?"

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2021 7:18 am Post subject: Small battery choice

At 06:50 PM 1/23/2021, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>



 Compare the weight.  Some batteries made in China claim to be 18 or 22 AH.  

 But when you look at the weight, they weigh less than a PC680 (15.4 pounds).

 One deceiving trick is to use a larger case than necessary to hold the meager contents. 	


   Good point!



 

 

   Bob . . .



   Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes

   survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane

   out of that stuff?"

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2021 7:20 am Post subject: Small battery choice

At 09:23 PM 1/23/2021, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>



 Here is another option: Mighty Max ML22-12GEL 12 Volt 22 AH

 Can be ordered from Home Depot or Lowes



 --------

 Joe Gores

 	


   Check to see if this is a true 'gel' cell

   fitted battery. These are generally optimized

   for deep cycle service like wheel chairs and

   trolling motors and not particularly good

   for engine cranking -OR- cold weather

   performance.



   AGM, SVLA is the way to go.



 

 

   Bob . . .



   Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes

   survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane

   out of that stuff?"

Ceengland

Joined: 11 Oct 2020
Posts: 379
Location: MS

Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2021 8:01 am Post subject: Small battery choice

On 1/24/2021 9:19 AM, Robert L.       Nuckolls, III wrote:

     

      	  Quote: 	
		                At 09:23 PM 1/23/2021, you wrote:

               	  Quote: 	
		  -->           AeroElectric-List message           posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> (fransew(at)gmail.com)

           

           Here is another option: Mighty Max ML22-12GEL 12 Volt 22 AH

           Can be ordered from Home Depot or Lowes

           

           --------

           Joe Gores

         	
       

         Check to see if this is a true 'gel' cell

         fitted battery. These are generally optimized

         for deep cycle service like wheel chairs and

         trolling motors and not particularly good

         for engine cranking -OR- cold weather

         performance.

       

         AGM, SVLA is the way to go.

       

       

                

             Bob . . .

                	
     My experience when communicating with the battery vendors is that     the meaning of 'gel' has 'ebbed and flowed' over time and is     different with different vendors. I questioned a vendor (not Mighty     Max) about their two models with the same capacity; one identified     as 'gel' and the other as simple SLA. Their answer was that the     'gel' battery was an SLA designed for starting duty, and their other     SLA was their deep discharge version. This is obviously opposite of     what most of us would expect to hear.

     

     Bottom line: ya gotta ask.

     

     Charlie

     	          		Virus-free. www.avast.com 		 	 [url=#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2] [/url]

_________________
Charlie

user9253

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1908
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2021 9:19 am Post subject: Re: Small battery choice

The Mighty Max ML22-12GEL documentation does not mention AGM or SVLA.

But printed on the front of the battery in large letters is:

"Deep CYCLE AGM Battery"

The above battery uses M5 bolts whereas the PC680 uses M6 bolts.

The smaller size bolts might mean that the Might Max battery is not designed for starting.

_________________
Joe Gores

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2021 9:39 am Post subject: Small battery choice

 	  Quote: 	
		  The MM referenced is 0.014, which is still plenty good enough to crank a 4 cyl Lyc . . . 	


   Aha! that's almost certain to be a 'gel-cell' battery.



   But if the price is right and you reside/fly in moderate

   climate conditions, they might serve your purposes

   well.



   Bill Bainbridge and I ran some cold delivery tests

   on new flooded, gel and AGM batteries as part of

   the qualification of his STC efforts on AGM batteries.

   I did the first proof installation on his batteries

   in a C150 waaayyyy back when. 



   Of the three batteries cold-soaked and load tested,

   the flooded and gel batteries were pretty sad

   compared to the AGM. I don't recall now how the

   flooded and gel compared . . . it kind of sticks

   in my mind that the gel was worst which sorta

   goes along with the higher spec'd internal

   resistance.



 

   Bob . . .



   Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes

   survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane

   out of that stuff?"

Ceengland

Joined: 11 Oct 2020
Posts: 379
Location: MS

Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2021 9:46 am Post subject: Small battery choice

Kelly,

Not questioning your experience with the generics, but it is worth noting that your tug is a different application (and only one example). I've never used an SLA in a true deep discharge environment (other than my computer UPSs, which are only online long enough for the generator to start). But my experience with the generics (which, for the most part, are designed for deep discharge applications) I'm (mis)using as *starting batteries* is that they do the job well, and last a long time. (Remember, in a starting application, you only pull 3-5% of the capacity to start theÂ  engine, and then the alternator is doing all the work through the rest of the flight.) On the other hand, if you search 'Odyssey' on the VAF RV forum for the last couple of years, you will find multiple accounts of owners who got great life from their original Odyssey but when they replaced it, the new one had very short life. I realize that this is 2nd hand info, so take it for whatever you think it's worth, but the stories are out there.

Charlie

On Sun, Jan 24, 2021 at 8:32 AM Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)>

 Certainly not my experience. In aircraft, in Aridzona the typical 

 Concorde or Gill is good for 3-3.5 years. I have an Odyssey in my 

 homebuilt...a bigger 925 which has served well for 6 years. My tug uses 

 batteries in the size you are talking about. The manufacturer put in 

 Duracells. I tried generic and got 4 months. Paid twice as much for the 

 Duracells, and they are doing quite well.

 On 1/23/2021 3:45 PM, Charlie England wrote:

 > 

 > 

 > On Sat, Jan 23, 2021 at 2:20 PM AdventureD <dobrien(at)microfoundations.com (dobrien(at)microfoundations.com) 

 > <mailto:dobrien(at)microfoundations.com (dobrien(at)microfoundations.com)>> wrote:

 > 

 >Â  Â  Â 

 > Hi Dan,

 > 

 > I've run Power Sonic, and at least 2 or 3 other 'no name' brands in a/c 

 > overÂ the past 20+ years (probably everything *except* Odyssey), and I've 

 > never been able to detect any 'real world' difference among the brands. 

 > I buy the cheapest version I can find at the time, and it 'just works'. 

 > FWIW, there's been some internet chatter lately among the RV-x drivers 

 > that the current (pardon the pun) crop of OdysseysÂ have had less than 

 > stellar lifespans (and they obviously extract a premium from your 

 > pocketbook). I've always gotten 4-6 years out of the no-name versions, 

 > with the only exception being one that had a pin holeÂ in the case 

 > (shipping damage that I missed prior to installation). Even it lasted 

 > about a year before I noticed diminished capacity.

 > 

 > FWIW, there are some higher AH versions available in almost identical 

 > case sizes. The naming conventionÂ  for most is like the PowerSonic: 

 > 12(voltage)18(AH)followed by another zero. IfÂ  you search for '12200 SLA 

 > battery' or '12220 SLA battery' (and read the specs carefully), you can 

 > get a 20 AH or 22AH that will fit in the same space, for about the same 

 > money. One thing to notice on the 'no names' is that many are intended 

 > for deep discharge applications (powered wheelchairs, etc), and will 

 > have slightly higher internal resistance than a PC680 'starting 

 > battery'. By going to a 20 AH or 22AH version, the internal impedance 

 > will be roughly the same as the PC680 (meaning same or better CCA), and 

 > the battery's *capacity* (total energy content) will be 10%-15% greater 

 > than a PC680 (stuff will run longer after an alternator failure).

 > 

 > My experience since late in the last century; YMMV, etc etc.

 > 

 > Charlie

_________________
Charlie

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2021 9:56 am Post subject: Small battery choice

 	  Quote: 	
		  My experience when communicating with the battery vendors is that the meaning

 of 'gel' has 'ebbed and flowed' over time and is different with different

 vendors. 	


   Right. In the early days of SVLA being

   offered at OSH, many vendors referred to

   their products as "gel". Had the same

   experience with folks behind the counters

   in store-front battery marts.



   The kicker is "AGM" which is absorbed glass

   mat . . . no way can AGM and Gel co-exist.

   

   There can be deep-discharge offerings in all three

   technologies which usually means more active material

   between plates and perhaps some tweaking of

   plate chemistry . . . 



   For the techno-nerds among us, here's an excellent

   description of the gel technology as it compares to

   the other two lead-acid technologies.



  https://tinyurl.com/yxwlh8xm



   Also, note the website . . . batteryuniveristy.com

   This is the go-to place for the straight skinny

   on all things battery.



   The article say Sonnenschein was producer of

   the first gel cell devices. That's the brand that

   B&C was selling at OSH in 1986.



 

   Bob . . .



   Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes

   survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane

   out of that stuff?"

cluros(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2021 10:23 am Post subject: Small battery choice

 	  Quote: 	
		  Â  Also, note the website . . .Â batteryuniveristy.com

Â  This is the go-to place for the straight skinny

Â  on all things battery.


	


Uhh ... personally I don't have anything against spinach but even though it's not nearly as destructive as the right-wing variety, left-wing click bait doesn't interest me.Â 

I think you meant batteryuniversity.com Bob.

On Sun, Jan 24, 2021 at 10:01 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		     	  Quote: 	
		  My experience when communicating with the battery vendors is that the meaning

 of 'gel' has 'ebbed and flowed' over time and is different with different

 vendors. 	


 Â  Right. In the early days of SVLA being

 Â  offered at OSH, many vendors referred to

 Â  their products as "gel". Had the same

 Â  experience with folks behind the counters

 Â  in store-front battery marts.



 Â  The kicker is "AGM" which is absorbed glass

 Â  mat . . . no way can AGM and Gel co-exist.

 Â  

 Â  There can be deep-discharge offerings in all three

 Â  technologies which usually means more active material

 Â  between plates and perhaps some tweaking of

 Â  plate chemistry . . . 



 Â  For the techno-nerds among us, here's an excellent

 Â  description of the gel technology as it compares to

 Â  the other two lead-acid technologies.



  https://tinyurl.com/yxwlh8xm



 Â  Also, note the website . . . batteryuniveristy.com

 Â  This is the go-to place for the straight skinny

 Â  on all things battery.



 Â  The article say Sonnenschein was producer of

 Â  the first gel cell devices. That's the brand that

 Â  B&C was selling at OSH in 1986.



 

 Â  Bob . . .



 Â  Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes

 Â  survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane

 Â  out of that stuff?"

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2021 10:52 am Post subject: Small battery choice

At 11:19 AM 1/24/2021, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>



 The Mighty Max ML22-12GEL documentation does not mention AGM or SVLA.

 But printed on the front of the battery in large letters is:

 "Deep CYCLE AGM Battery"

 The above battery uses M5 bolts whereas the PC680 uses M6 bolts.

 The smaller size bolts might mean that the Might Max battery is not designed for starting. 	
  



  https://tinyurl.com/y35venox



   This claims to be thixotropic electrolyte (gel)

   -AND- macromolecule polymer separators (glass mat

   analog). But of course whether the

   electrolyte is liquid or gel -AND- whether free

   of barriers to circulation it must still have

   some form of separator. Glass-mat or polymer

   would seem to fill the bill. But the AGM moniker

   is not appropriate because the mats are not

   glass.



   The cells are vacuum charged with electrolyte . . .

   as are all the SVLA devices so it's probably

   a given that the electrolyte is still 'absorbed'

   within the separators even tho it's gelled.

   I'm not sure what advantage is gained by gelling

   the electrolyte.



   The terminals are solid copper posts so they're

   suited to high discharge rates like cranking an engine

   but the 14 milliohm internal resistance in a 22AH

   battery suggests it might be chemically weak.

   The spec sheet says it will support an 11A load for

   about one hour . . . same as a PC680 which is rated

   at only 16AH.



   I see them listed on Amazon for a range of prices

   with the cheaper ones featuring pierced-tab terminals

   as opposed to tapped-posts.



   I would be interesting to get one in to quantify

   for performance but right now, I've got too many

   things on my plate!



   I think I'd steer clear of this puppy



 

   Bob . . .



   Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes

   survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane

   out of that stuff?"

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