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aspenbuild(at)me.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:43 am Post subject: Batteries

A friend of mine in the motorcycle trade after looking at the Rotax charging system specified a 6.5kg lead acid. Two years later he suggested LiPo and after 7 years Iâ€™m now on my second one. Itâ€™s 800 grams and the first failed through age. LTX9-BS and â‚¬80 delivered through eBay. I initially had concerns over an early regulator failure but thatâ€™s still original after 10 years and 700 hours.

Fully flooded and VRLA batteries have their place but possibly not in an aircraft.



Richard S

G CEIW



Sent from my iPad

brian.davies(at)clara.co.
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:40 am Post subject: Batteries

LiPo batteries are great for cranking amps but it is worth double checking the capacity, particularly if you are flying an aircraft that relies on only electric pumps ( 914).  The LTX9 has a capacity of only 3.6 AH.



Regards



Brian



--

Burrilla

Joined: 25 Apr 2015
Posts: 182

Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:21 am Post subject: Batteries

 	  Quote: 	
		  >LiPo batteries are great for cranking amps but it is worth double checking the capacity, particularly if you are flying an aircraft that relies on only electric pumps ( 914).  The LTX9 has a capacity of only 3.6 AH.<<


	


When I fitted a a LiPro to my 912ULS Tri-gear, I worked through the static load i.e. Radio, GPS, Master Solenoid, Transponderâ€¦. and then dynamic load i.e. Radio Transmitting, trimmer and flap operationâ€¦â€¦â€¦. With a static load of 8 amps I have 2 hours of battery capability and can extend that if I close down transponder, put GPS on internal battery and other measures.  In other words I can cross the channel and find an airfield to divert into.



If anyone is considering fitting a LiPro I recommend sitting down first and working out the electrical load factors first and then considering how much capacity your would need to divert should you loose an alternator. It's done for IFR capable aircraft as part of the design.



Fitting a LiPro is not all about weight saving and cranking capacity IMHO.



Regards



Alan Burrill

G-OBJT



[quote] On 14 Apr 2020, at 11:38, Brian Davies <brian.davies(at)clara.co.uk> wrote:

 

 

 

 LiPo batteries are great for cranking amps but it is worth double checking the capacity, particularly if you are flying an aircraft that relies on only electric pumps ( 914).  The LTX9 has a capacity of only 3.6 AH.

 

 Regards

 

 Brian

 

 --

Olivier.hequet@neuf.fr

Joined: 21 Aug 2017
Posts: 40
Location: France

Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:35 am Post subject: Batteries

Hello,

Just for information 

I put a lipo battery in my Europa...for better results I change my regulator by a Silent Hektik. Like this: https://www.silent-hektik.de/UL_R_912.htm

Olivier



[quote]Le 14 avr. 2020 Ã  14:24, Alan Burrill <alanb(at)dpy01.co.uk> a Ã©crit :



ï»¿--> Europa-List message posted by: Alan Burrill <alanb(at)dpy01.co.uk>



 	  Quote: 	
		   	  Quote: 	
		  LiPo batteries are great for cranking amps but it is worth double checking the capacity, particularly if you are flying an aircraft that relies on only electric pumps ( 914).  The LTX9 has a capacity of only 3.6 AH.<<

	
	


When I fitted a a LiPro to my 912ULS Tri-gear, I worked through the static load i.e. Radio, GPS, Master Solenoid, Transponderâ€¦. and then dynamic load i.e. Radio Transmitting, trimmer and flap operationâ€¦â€¦â€¦. With a static load of 8 amps I have 2 hours of battery capability and can extend that if I close down transponder, put GPS on internal battery and other measures.  In other words I can cross the channel and find an airfield to divert into.



If anyone is considering fitting a LiPro I recommend sitting down first and working out the electrical load factors first and then considering how much capacity your would need to divert should you loose an alternator. It's done for IFR capable aircraft as part of the design.



Fitting a LiPro is not all about weight saving and cranking capacity IMHO.



Regards



Alan Burrill

G-OBJT



[quote]On 14 Apr 2020, at 11:38, Brian Davies <brian.davies(at)clara.co.uk> wrote:



--> Europa-List message posted by: "Brian Davies" <brian.davies(at)clara.co.uk>



LiPo batteries are great for cranking amps but it is worth double checking the capacity, particularly if you are flying an aircraft that relies on only electric pumps ( 914).  The LTX9 has a capacity of only 3.6 AH.



Regards



Brian



--

churchy

Joined: 04 Nov 2011
Posts: 48

Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:55 am Post subject: Batteries

Unfortunately, Silent Hektik refuses to sell their items to UK residents. Perhaps a reaction to Brexit - But they didnâ€™t give me an explanation!



Richard C-C



Sent from my iPhone



[quote] On 14 Apr 2020, at 13:34, "olivier.hequet(at)neuf.fr" <olivier.hequet(at)neuf.fr> wrote:

 

 Hello,

 

 Just for information 

 I put a lipo battery in my Europa...for better results I change my regulator by a Silent Hektik. Like this: https://www.silent-hektik.de/UL_R_912.htm

 

 Olivier

 

> Le 14 avr. 2020 Ã  14:24, Alan Burrill <alanb(at)dpy01.co.uk> a Ã©crit :

> 

> ï»¿

> 

>>> LiPo batteries are great for cranking amps but it is worth double checking the capacity, particularly if you are flying an aircraft that relies on only electric pumps ( 914).  The LTX9 has a capacity of only 3.6 AH.<<

> 

> When I fitted a a LiPro to my 912ULS Tri-gear, I worked through the static load i.e. Radio, GPS, Master Solenoid, Transponderâ€¦. and then dynamic load i.e. Radio Transmitting, trimmer and flap operationâ€¦â€¦â€¦. With a static load of 8 amps I have 2 hours of battery capability and can extend that if I close down transponder, put GPS on internal battery and other measures.  In other words I can cross the channel and find an airfield to divert into.

> 

> If anyone is considering fitting a LiPro I recommend sitting down first and working out the electrical load factors first and then considering how much capacity your would need to divert should you loose an alternator. It's done for IFR capable aircraft as part of the design.

> 

> Fitting a LiPro is not all about weight saving and cranking capacity IMHO

h&jeuropa

Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 635

Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:42 am Post subject: Re: Batteries

We have been using a EarthX lithium battery (ETX 680C) for several years.  I wrote an article for the Europa Flyer (EF82) concerning it.  We load test it each inspection and it will maintain rated voltage with a load of 10 amps for over an hour.  One feature of lithium batteries is that the voltage does not decay as the battery discharges.  It stays pretty constant but then falls off quickly.



We replaced the Ducatti regulator with one Jim built.  A RV12 owner and electrical engineer who researched many Ducatti failures developed this replacement. It is essentially a clone of the Ducatti but with high quality components and much larger heat sinks.   Documentation and PC boards are available and the cost is roughly $70. 



B and C Aero now has a replacement for the Ducatti called AVC-1.  The link to the specifications is https://bandc.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/AVC1_Technical_Manual_RevIR_3-11-20.pdf

While not listed on their website yet, I believe the cost is $275.



We have always had our battery located on top of the foot well, even when we had a lead acid battery.  We really wanted to avoid long, heavy cable runs.  There are some loading situations where the CG is too far forward but we just use a couple 1 gallon containers filled with water located in the rear for those flights.



Jim & Heather

gilles(at)elixir-aircraft
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2020 11:49 am Post subject: Batteries

Le 14/04/2020 Ã  15:53, Richard         Churchill-Coleman a Ã©critÂ :

       

      	  Quote: 	
		                Unfortunately, Silent Hektik refuses to sell their items to UK         residents. Perhaps a reaction to Brexit - But they didnâ€™t give         me an explanation!       

       

     	
     

Hi Richard,     

My building buddy has a Silent Hektik for sale. He might be       willing to send it to you (regardless of Brexit or else .     

Sorry, only picture I have :

          

[img]cid:part1.18ECAFFF.A40B68BC(at)elixir-aircraft.com[/img]     

If interested, do not hesitate to pm me.     

FWIW

          -- 

       Best regards,

       Gilles

       http://contrails.free.fr

       http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr

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rowlandcarson(at)gmail.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:43 am Post subject: Batteries

On 2020-04-14, at 14:53, Richard Churchill-Coleman <richard.churchill-coleman(at)sky.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Unfortunately, Silent Hektik refuses to sell their items to UK residents. Perhaps a reaction to Brexit - But they didnâ€™t give me an explanation!


	


Richard - sorry for late response - your message got stuck in spam. I had no problem purchasing the GR6 from Herr Schicke for delivery to Cheltenham UK, but that was back in 2012. He sent me a pro-forma invoice by e-mail and I paid by Swift bank transfer. Perhaps something has changed in the last few years.



in friendship



Rowland



| Rowland Carson          ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...

| <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com>            http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk

| Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson      Facebook: Rowland Carson

rparigoris

Joined: 24 Nov 2009
Posts: 780

Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 2:01 am Post subject: Re: Batteries

Hi Group A bit confused after reading this thread. Is someone really using a LiPo battery on an aircraft you fly in? I'm assuming LiPo you mean Lithium Polymer battery. They have one of the best energy densities around and can dump amps like crazy if designed to do. They have a better Energy Density than Lithium Ion. That said they are also incredibly dangerous. Far worst than Lithium Ion. Great stuff for models and if you charge them somewhere that when they catch fire and you have a big bag of sand in a plastic bag over them so they don't burn down your house or whatever else they are near. It's not unheard of for model guys to lose their car by recharging inside them.

Anyway is someone with a Europa really flying with LiPo??

I never heard of a LiPro, what is that?

Earth-X batteries are LiFePO4 Lithium Iron Phosphate. It's a fairly safe Lithium technology, I think Earth-X has their act together as far as making it aeroplane friendly with their balancing, protection and shut down. They have a worst energy density compared to Lithium Ion Batteries but safer.

I agree that when using batteries that can dump amps and are light weight, just because they can start your motor, their capacity may be very limited. Another thing is to consider is just because a battery Mfg. lists a specification does not mean for one thing that it's true and another if they give you a capacity when discharge at 1/20thC, in other words whatever capacity the battery is you discharge it over a 20 hour period, it will not be the same as draining the battery over an hour or two. Same goes for 1/10C.  If you are relying on the battery to provide power in the event of a charging failure, you really must do an actual test. Figures don't lie, but liars sure do figure! Ron Parigoris

Burrilla

Joined: 25 Apr 2015
Posts: 182

Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 2:33 am Post subject: Batteries

 	  Quote: 	
		  >Anyway is someone with a Europa really flying with LiPo??

I never heard of a LiPro, what is that?<<
	




In the UK the LAA Technical leaflet 3.26 which refers to Standard Modification SM14337 - Lithium Iron Phosphate Batteries LiFePO are the approved standard for use in LAA aircraft,. I use one in mine and I believe several others do.



What others are using outside of UK I couldnâ€™t say. Maybe people are confusing terminology.



Alan



 	  Quote: 	
		   On 27 Apr 2020, at 11:02, rparigoris <rparigor(at)hotmail.com> wrote:

 

 

 

 Hi Group A bit confused after reading this thread. Is someone really using a LiPo battery on an aircraft you fly in? I'm assuming LiPo you mean Lithium Polymer battery. They have one of the best energy densities around and can dump amps like crazy if designed to do. They have a better Energy Density than Lithium Ion. That said they are also incredibly dangerous. Far worst than Lithium Ion. Great stuff for models and if you charge them somewhere that when they catch fire and you have a big bag of sand in a plastic bag over them so they don't burn down your house or whatever else they are near. It's not unheard of for model guys to lose their car by recharging inside them.

 Anyway is someone with a Europa really flying with LiPo??

 I never heard of a LiPro, what is that?

 Earth-X batteries are LiFePO4 Lithium Iron Phosphate. It's a fairly safe Lithium technology, I think Earth-X has their act together as far as making it aeroplane friendly with their balancing, protection and shut down. They have a worst energy density compared to Lithium Ion Batteries but safer.

 I agree that when using batteries that can dump amps and are light weight, just because they can start your motor, their capacity may be very limited. Another thing is to consider is just because a battery Mfg. lists a specification does not mean for one thing that it's true and another if they give you a capacity when discharge at 1/20thC, in other words whatever capacity the battery is you discharge it over a 20 hour period, it will not be the same as draining the battery over an hour or two. Same goes for 1/10C.  If you are relying on the battery to provide power in the event of a charging failure, you really must do an actual test. Figures don't lie, but liars sure do figure! Ron Parigoris

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496060#496060

aspenbuild(at)me.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 3:01 am Post subject: Batteries

Ron, Iâ€™m going to pm you later, current at work, Richard 



Sent from my iPhone



 	  Quote: 	
		   On 27 Apr 2020, at 11:02, rparigoris <rparigor(at)hotmail.com> wrote:

 

 

 

 Hi Group A bit confused after reading this thread. Is someone really using a LiPo battery on an aircraft you fly in? I'm assuming LiPo you mean Lithium Polymer battery. They have one of the best energy densities around and can dump amps like crazy if designed to do. They have a better Energy Density than Lithium Ion. That said they are also incredibly dangerous. Far worst than Lithium Ion. Great stuff for models and if you charge them somewhere that when they catch fire and you have a big bag of sand in a plastic bag over them so they don't burn down your house or whatever else they are near. It's not unheard of for model guys to lose their car by recharging inside them.

 Anyway is someone with a Europa really flying with LiPo??

 I never heard of a LiPro, what is that?

 Earth-X batteries are LiFePO4 Lithium Iron Phosphate. It's a fairly safe Lithium technology, I think Earth-X has their act together as far as making it aeroplane friendly with their balancing, protection and shut down. They have a worst energy density compared to Lithium Ion Batteries but safer.

 I agree that when using batteries that can dump amps and are light weight, just because they can start your motor, their capacity may be very limited. Another thing is to consider is just because a battery Mfg. lists a specification does not mean for one thing that it's true and another if they give you a capacity when discharge at 1/20thC, in other words whatever capacity the battery is you discharge it over a 20 hour period, it will not be the same as draining the battery over an hour or two. Same goes for 1/10C.  If you are relying on the battery to provide power in the event of a charging failure, you really must do an actual test. Figures don't lie, but liars sure do figure! Ron Parigoris

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496060#496060

aspenbuild(at)me.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 6:15 am Post subject: Batteries

No confusion Alan, just a good old typing without my glasses on. Battery is indeed a LiFePO4 sent from Germany for â‚¬80 with the last one lasting five years. 



Richard



Sent from my iPad



 	  Quote: 	
		   On 27 Apr 2020, at 11:31, Alan Burrill <alanb(at)dpy01.co.uk> wrote:

 

 

 

>> Anyway is someone with a Europa really flying with LiPo??

 I never heard of a LiPro, what is that?<<

 

 In the UK the LAA Technical leaflet 3.26 which refers to Standard Modification SM14337 - Lithium Iron Phosphate Batteries LiFePO are the approved standard for use in LAA aircraft,. I use one in mine and I believe several others do.

 

 What others are using outside of UK I couldnâ€™t say. Maybe people are confusing terminology.

 

 Alan

 

> On 27 Apr 2020, at 11:02, rparigoris <rparigor(at)hotmail.com> wrote:

> 

> 

> 

> Hi Group A bit confused after reading this thread. Is someone really using a LiPo battery on an aircraft you fly in? I'm assuming LiPo you mean Lithium Polymer battery. They have one of the best energy densities around and can dump amps like crazy if designed to do. They have a better Energy Density than Lithium Ion. That said they are also incredibly dangerous. Far worst than Lithium Ion. Great stuff for models and if you charge them somewhere that when they catch fire and you have a big bag of sand in a plastic bag over them so they don't burn down your house or whatever else they are near. It's not unheard of for model guys to lose their car by recharging inside them.

> Anyway is someone with a Europa really flying with LiPo??

> I never heard of a LiPro, what is that?

> Earth-X batteries are LiFePO4 Lithium Iron Phosphate. It's a fairly safe Lithium technology, I think Earth-X has their act together as far as making it aeroplane friendly with their balancing, protection and shut down. They have a worst energy density compared to Lithium Ion Batteries but safer.

> I agree that when using batteries that can dump amps and are light weight, just because they can start your motor, their capacity may be very limited. Another thing is to consider is just because a battery Mfg. lists a specification does not mean for one thing that it's true and another if they give you a capacity when discharge at 1/20thC, in other words whatever capacity the battery is you discharge it over a 20 hour period, it will not be the same as draining the battery over an hour or two. Same goes for 1/10C.  If you are relying on the battery to provide power in the event of a charging failure, you really must do an actual test. Figures don't lie, but liars sure do figure! Ron Parigoris

> 

> 

> 

> 

> Read this topic online here:

> 

> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496060#496060

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

>

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