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Water and alcohol

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williamtsullivan(at)att.n
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2020 12:37 pm Post subject: Water and alcohol

I am having a memory lapse.  Mogas has alcohol, and there is a term for what happens when the alcohol absorbs too much water and forms a goo, or slurry, that clogs fuel systems.  Can anyone remember what that goo is called?  I do remember the way to remove the alcohol- adding water and overloading the alcohol, and draining it from the bottom.  Not to be done in the aircraft!!!

  Richard Pike?  Can you give us a refresher on this?



                                                                            Bill Sullivan

                                                                            Tarboro, NC

ceengland7(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2020 2:02 pm Post subject: Water and alcohol

On 2/15/2020 2:34 PM, william sullivan wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



    I am having a memory lapse.  Mogas has alcohol, and there is a term for what happens when the alcohol absorbs too much water and forms a goo, or slurry, that clogs fuel systems.  Can anyone remember what that goo is called?  I do remember the way to remove the alcohol- adding water and overloading the alcohol, and draining it from the bottom.  Not to be done in the aircraft!!!

    Richard Pike?  Can you give us a refresher on this?



                                                                              Bill Sullivan

                                                                              Tarboro, NC



I don't think that's a 'thing', except in old hangar tales. Maybe this?
	


https://www.bellperformance.com/blog/bid/71472/Brown-Sludge-MTBE-and-Ethanol-Don-t-Mix

I think MTBE in gas has been outlawed for a long time.



Ethanol & water can cause corrosion issues (which water can obviously do 

by itself), and the combo can attack incompatible 'soft parts' in a fuel 

system, but with proper materials selection, none of that should be an 

issue. Consider our cars. We've had no (practical) choice but to run 

E-gas for several decades, and we never have these issues in cars.



Methanol ('wood alcohol') is another whole animal. Perhaps that's what 

you're thinking about.



You can pull the ethanol out of gas using a bunch of water, but you're 

left with very low (and unknown) octane fuel. I can get E-free premium 

locally, and have run it in my Lycoming engines for a couple of decades. 

I test every batch for ethanol using an olive jar (tall & skinny). The 

method is to put about an inch of water in the jar, and carefully mark 

the jar at the water line. Fill with the gas you're testing, cap, and 

shake vigorously. Let it sit for a few minutes, and check that the 

'water' level hasn't increased. If it's at the same level, there's no 

ethanol. If the level rises, (some of) the ethanol has bound to the 

water and it will appear that there's now more water in the jar. Note 

that the only reason I use E-free is because the old RV-4 I flew had an 

old mechanical fuel pump with soft parts that were susceptible to 

E-damage. There are quite a few guys flying fuel injected Lycs on E-10 & 

E-15 premium now. (No E-susceptible parts in an injected engine with a 

late model mechanical pump; the pump maker switched to E-proof soft 

parts a number of years ago.



Biggest danger is phase separation at low temps.

http://www.lcbamarketing.com/phase_separation_in_ethanol_blen.htm



Of course, I could be wrong...



Charlie

williamtsullivan(at)att.n
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2020 5:36 pm Post subject: Water and alcohol

Phase separation!  That's what I couldn't remember.  Thanks.  It was a conversation regarding seasonal power equipment.



do not archive.



                                                              Bill Sullivan

            

                                                                                        On Saturday, February 15, 2020, 05:03:27 PM EST, Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> wrote:                

                



                



                --> Kolb-List message posted by: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)>



On 2/15/2020 2:34 PM, william sullivan wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Kolb-List message posted by: william sullivan <williamtsullivan(at)att.net (williamtsullivan(at)att.net)>


	


 	  Quote: 	
		  


	


 	  Quote: 	
		      I am having a memory lapse.  Mogas has alcohol, and there is a term for what happens when the alcohol absorbs too much water and forms a goo, or slurry, that clogs fuel systems.  Can anyone remember what that goo is called?  I do remember the way to remove the alcohol- adding water and overloading the alcohol, and draining it from the bottom.  Not to be done in the aircraft!!!


	


 	  Quote: 	
		      Richard Pike?  Can you give us a refresher on this?


	


 	  Quote: 	
		  


	


 	  Quote: 	
		                                                                                Bill Sullivan


	


 	  Quote: 	
		                                                                                Tarboro, NC


	


 	  Quote: 	
		  


	


I don't think that's a 'thing', except in old hangar tales. Maybe this?



https://www.bellperformance.com/blog/bid/71472/Brown-Sludge-MTBE-and-Ethanol-Don-t-Mix



I think MTBE in gas has been outlawed for a long time.



Ethanol & water can cause corrosion issues (which water can obviously do 



by itself), and the combo can attack incompatible 'soft parts' in a fuel 



system, but with proper materials selection, none of that should be an 



issue. Consider our cars. We've had no (practical) choice but to run 



E-gas for several decades, and we never have these issues in cars.



Methanol ('wood alcohol') is another whole animal. Perhaps that's what 



you're thinking about.



You can pull the ethanol out of gas using a bunch of water, but you're 



left with very low (and unknown) octane fuel. I can get E-free premium 



locally, and have run it in my Lycoming engines for a couple of decades. 



I test every batch for ethanol using an olive jar (tall & skinny). The 



method is to put about an inch of water in the jar, and carefully mark 



the jar at the water line. Fill with the gas you're testing, cap, and 



shake vigorously. Let it sit for a few minutes, and check that the 



'water' level hasn't increased. If it's at the same level, there's no 



ethanol. If the level rises, (some of) the ethanol has bound to the 



water and it will appear that there's now more water in the jar. Note 



that the only reason I use E-free is because the old RV-4 I flew had an 



old mechanical fuel pump with soft parts that were susceptible to 



E-damage. There are quite a few guys flying fuel injected Lycs on E-10 & 



E-15 premium now. (No E-susceptible parts in an injected engine with a 



late model mechanical pump; the pump maker switched to E-proof soft 



parts a number of years ago.



Biggest danger is phase separation at low temps.



http://www.lcbamarketing.com/phase_separation_in_ethanol_blen.htm



Of course, I could be wrong...



Charlie







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Ducati SS

Joined: 15 Oct 2009
Posts: 93

Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 3:43 am Post subject: Re: Water and alcohol

It is true that most equipment is now ethanol tolerant. But one important difference between autos and airplanes it that auto systems are basically closed. You may notice a faint motor running sound after turning off your car, that is the EVAP self test proving the system is not leaking. Leave the gas cap loose and you will get a warning light. So I don't think moisture absorption is likely to be a problem on modern cars. Our aircraft are vented direct to the atmosphere. Tank is constantly breathing as ambient temp. changes. This is a huge problem with pre EVAP motorcycles as nearly all developed rust in the tank.

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1669
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:06 am Post subject: Re: Water and alcohol

If you have an epoxy based fuel tank like I do, ethanol in your gas will ruin it.

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

Ducati SS

Joined: 15 Oct 2009
Posts: 93

Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 6:16 am Post subject: Re: Water and alcohol

I believe many boat owners found that out the hard way. For those who have flown certified GA airplanes it is not uncommon to find some water during the pre flight. My Cessna had vented caps, bottom of the tanks directly below the caps had a small spot of corrosion. With 100LL the water simply dropped to the sump but if there had been alcohol in the fuel it would be a different story. We have a chain of stations locally that all have Ethanol free available. I put it in everything I own.

williamtsullivan(at)att.n
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 7:18 am Post subject: Water and alcohol

I will pass that along, too.  Thanks.

            

                                                                                        On Sunday, February 16, 2020, 08:08:41 AM EST, Richard Pike <thegreybaron(at)charter.net> wrote:                

                



                



                --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Pike" <thegreybaron(at)charter.net (thegreybaron(at)charter.net)>



If you have an epoxy based fuel tank like I do, ethanol in your gas will ruin it.



--------



Richard Pike



Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)



Kolb Firefly Part 103 legal 



Kingsport, TN 3TN0



Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.



Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494832#494832







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byoungplumbing(at)gmail.c
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 7:53 am Post subject: Water and alcohol

 	  Quote: 	
		  If you have an epoxy based fuel tank like I do, ethanol in your gas will ruin it. 	






There are slosh sealers that can be poured in the tank,Â  roll the tank so all surfaces are covered, pour the excess out, let it cure.Â  Â Its supposed to stop contact between tank and fuel.Â  Â Problem solved.

Some sealers are good for mogas, another for avgas.Â  And some for both.Â  Â Â 

My only experience is with a Ford model t tank.Â  Trying to keep rust under control.Â  Â I used Por 15.Â  It said on the label that it was good for all fuel types.Â  Â First step was a cleaner, then an etcher ( probably only needed for metal tanks)Â  then the sealer.

Boyd Young

Kolb mkiii & Ford model T

Do not archive

 	  Quote:

ceengland7(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 11:25 am Post subject: Water and alcohol

On 2/16/2020 9:52 AM, B Young wrote:

     

      	  Quote: 	
		                                     	  Quote: 	
		                            If you have an epoxy               based fuel tank like I do, ethanol in your gas will ruin               it. 	
         

         

         

         

         

         There are slosh sealers that can be poured in           the tank,Â  roll the tank so all surfaces are covered, pour the           excess out, let it cure.Â  Â Its supposed to stop contact           between tank and fuel.Â  Â Problem solved.

         

         

         Some sealers are good for mogas, another for           avgas.Â  And some for both.Â  Â Â 

         

         

         My only experience is with a Ford model t tank.Â            Trying to keep rust under control.Â  Â I used Por 15.Â  It said           on the label that it was good for all fuel types.Â  Â First step           was a cleaner, then an etcher ( probably only needed for metal           tanks)Â  then the sealer.

         

         

         Boyd Young

         Kolb mkiii & Ford model T

         

         

         Do not archive

                     	  Quote: 	
		  

           	
         

       

     	
     For *general* info:

     The RVx guys used to us a sloshing sealant after sealing with     regular 'proseal' (polysulfide) on the joints & rivets (aluminum     tanks). Kind of a 'belt & suspenders' thing, back in the day. A     lot (meaning just about all) of them had problems with the sloshing     compound coming loose in fragments, then sheets. If you've ever seen     latex paint come off poorly prepped surfaces, that's what it looks     like. Significant danger of a piece wrapping around the fuel pickup.

     

     My *opinion* about the cause of the above is that while most     builders were careful to clean & scuff up the mating areas of     the aluminum, they likely didn't clean/scuff the broad expanses of     aluminum between the joints, and the slosh couldn't get a good grip     on the surfaces. I know that was the case in the RV4 I owned. If     anyone is considering 'slosh' in a metal tank, especially an     aluminum tank, they should be aware of the potential pitfalls. My     *opinion* (again) is that if every surface inside the tank is     prepped properly, then slosh wouldn't be a problem. But I have not     tested that theory.

     

     The above might not apply to a fiberglass tank. Or, it might.

     It might not apply to other formulations of 'slosh'. Or, it might.

     

     Just be aware, if you're...I was going to say, 'in the air', but     that's just too cheesy. Anyway, be careful.

     

     Charlie

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1669
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 4:58 pm Post subject: Re: Water and alcohol

 	  byoungplumbing(at)gmail.c wrote: 	
		  



There are slosh sealers that can be poured in the tank,Â  roll the tank so all surfaces are covered, pour the excess out, let it cure.Â  Â Its supposed to stop contact between tank and fuel.Â  Â Problem solved.



Boyd Young

Kolb mkiii & Ford model T

Do not archive 	


If your tank is all finished and you already have the filter strainers on the end of the interior fuel pickup tubes, that's not really an option: makes the engine run WAY too lean.... <grin>

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Tue Feb 18, 2020 1:18 pm Post subject: Water and alcohol

Many of the failures of most any sealer is failure to read and follow the instructions.Â  At least with a product called "Creme" it worked quite well.Â  Getting the tank prepped was a real workout.Â  My buddy, Rog, put fine grade sharp rocks (chat I think is the correct term) and a little gas into his Harley tanks then shook them at all angles for 45 minutes each. The chat is to knock off all the rust flakes and roughen the surface. Drained and let dry out for a few days and applied the sealer.Â  No problems.The venerable Stearman bi-plane had wooden fuel tanks sealed with fabric and Goodyear Plio-Bond cement. 80 years on still good.

For a more modern approach contact KBS coatings.Â  I used it to make sure there were no leaks in a welded up auminum header tank for a JA Highlander.Â  Used their prep and sealer as directed and five years on no sign of problems.Â  KBS is the only sealer I know of that specifically approves using their sealer in fiberglass tanks.Â  I can say that I made a mistake when using their prep solution. There was a chemical reaction with the aluminum and the tank got quite hot and became pressurized.Â  Blew the tank up like a balloon and reshaped all the tank's panels from flat to convex.Â  My bad not KBS's prep. The folks at KBS are quite friendly and knowledgeable about their products and I would urge anyone to contact them for specifics.

Last, for fiberglass tanks do NOT use epoxy resin systems, use vinyl ester resin instead.

Rick

_________________
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