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Charge Pump

 
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jluckey(at)pacbell.net
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:54 pm    Post subject: Charge Pump Reply with quote

Hello members,
I'm wondering how difficult it would be to build a 14-to-28 volt charge-pump power supply. It would need to supply about 7 amps.
Here's why I'm asking... There are lots of 28v KX-155s on Ebay that are fairly in-expensive at around $1500 compared to 12v models that can sell for up to $1000 more.
So if I could fabricate such a power supply for around $100, I would be ahead of the game.
I'm interested in the calculations on how to size the capacitors and the frequency to run the charge pump.
Any insight is greatly appreciated,


-Jeff


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ceengland7(at)gmail.com
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:36 pm    Post subject: Charge Pump Reply with quote

On 2/6/2020 2:51 PM, Jeff Luckey wrote:

Quote:
Hello members,


I'm wondering how difficult it would be to build a 14-to-28 volt charge-pump power supply.  It would need to supply about 7 amps.  


Here's why I'm asking... There are lots of 28v KX-155s on Ebay that are fairly in-expensive at around $1500 compared to 12v models that can sell for up to $1000 more.


So if I could fabricate such a power supply for around $100, I would be ahead of the game.


I'm interested in the calculations on how to size the capacitors and the frequency to run the charge pump.  


Any insight is greatly appreciated, 




-Jeff

Yes, it can be done Here's how to calculate the values:
Start with $100. Divide by 5.88 Go to ebay. Search '12v to 24v stepup converter'. With the result from the previous calculation, get one converter, plus a spare.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Waterproof-DC12V-to-DC-24V-20A-480W-Step-Up-Power-Supply-Converter-Regulator-Kit/202872549463?_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=item2f3c257057:m:mA-xAWABizqWlOLEyA6v7Nw&enc=AQAEAAACUBPxNw%2BVj6nta7CKEs3N0qUXW1%2Fq6HuXoJTIAajkTxvX%2FthCD%2BMtQ9lOxF6IWwWFRnOCDAOfp2kcY%2FayMmdc6Z2eRgn%2BFiiPY0P5BtYG1KcorbK%2FmeMRiVwLI8vEwVf0wSo9f79LRzTetEN9dtRtx6VmJgBqd%2BQqmMO6IsoUKer6LyYxh40VjEXp1PjMj35gPvxWVWLaQ8G6O0y%2B%2B1GB%2F7hRHfA7qBtnk6bZTiFNEfuQspUJsdRqSP9OFtTDDAVj3QNaR0mWqKDYKXLzO8bQca9iNmmytJK6nLFAJNGwzmMAu1MiCMBWcPieqAWjyVSfz%2FO8BSZT0pEtEWtNSh3tWKB5xqkNY9Qhs7WbGe8EuAt32ewwx67hNfV8rngHDCpQyvXAfj4idhRVXTtwo%2Fk9O8bcfPkxhX9dxRv0Vw7MsNH8rzQMn%2BrO8KfDqcJ9x9Rk%2BjtBxhHAW9Iz%2FwP2NKVkIn19K13qj2sXDDTi1bwFWgJuXMC%2FbPvLnbvdGuAyDSJDbqEx%2B%2Bep62vvTMXkiQGQG9cvRfElNO6gx9fckkqRaEwzph0AZGmiZFLYJP0%2FEZePnJSu60RsvnZ13ERorw3jsJKl7O5LrDyUh14IAnRrqCP8H9fjK2gnLVelmINptBgHXt8VGvVsL1dlAHk84ZWTh%2F5NhdwTp4V0rUEiZxTHf%2Fuilag6UmnxRVvltlT7aJUUll62W3FWPixrBrjRuQTGLjnr6hxwB7t%2FDevyRwW7GNPllYZmM1lMkAhd%2FuMYc6sg7tcRcceqbs3QXHzwu5pRW04%3D&checksum=20287254946321373ab7df7b4123bbe0bef05d201fa3

Sorry; I couldn't resist. Smile
Note that the link is actually to a 10A supply, but that's probably 3 times what the radio needs, so still plenty of 'headroom'.

Charlie


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ceengland7(at)gmail.com
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:39 pm    Post subject: Charge Pump Reply with quote

On 2/6/2020 3:32 PM, Charlie England wrote:

Quote:
On 2/6/2020 2:51 PM, Jeff Luckey wrote:

Quote:
Hello members,


I'm wondering how difficult it would be to build a 14-to-28 volt charge-pump power supply.  It would need to supply about 7 amps.  


Here's why I'm asking... There are lots of 28v KX-155s on Ebay that are fairly in-expensive at around $1500 compared to 12v models that can sell for up to $1000 more.


So if I could fabricate such a power supply for around $100, I would be ahead of the game.


I'm interested in the calculations on how to size the capacitors and the frequency to run the charge pump.  


Any insight is greatly appreciated, 




-Jeff

Yes, it can be done Here's how to calculate the values:
Start with $100. Divide by 5.88 Go to ebay. Search '12v to 24v stepup converter'. With the result from the previous calculation, get one converter, plus a spare.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Waterproof-DC12V-to-DC-24V-20A-480W-Step-Up-Power-Supply-Converter-Regulator-Kit/202872549463?_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=item2f3c257057:m:mA-xAWABizqWlOLEyA6v7Nw&enc=AQAEAAACUBPxNw%2BVj6nta7CKEs3N0qUXW1%2Fq6HuXoJTIAajkTxvX%2FthCD%2BMtQ9lOxF6IWwWFRnOCDAOfp2kcY%2FayMmdc6Z2eRgn%2BFiiPY0P5BtYG1KcorbK%2FmeMRiVwLI8vEwVf0wSo9f79LRzTetEN9dtRtx6VmJgBqd%2BQqmMO6IsoUKer6LyYxh40VjEXp1PjMj35gPvxWVWLaQ8G6O0y%2B%2B1GB%2F7hRHfA7qBtnk6bZTiFNEfuQspUJsdRqSP9OFtTDDAVj3QNaR0mWqKDYKXLzO8bQca9iNmmytJK6nLFAJNGwzmMAu1MiCMBWcPieqAWjyVSfz%2FO8BSZT0pEtEWtNSh3tWKB5xqkNY9Qhs7WbGe8EuAt32ewwx67hNfV8rngHDCpQyvXAfj4idhRVXTtwo%2Fk9O8bcfPkxhX9dxRv0Vw7MsNH8rzQMn%2BrO8KfDqcJ9x9Rk%2BjtBxhHAW9Iz%2FwP2NKVkIn19K13qj2sXDDTi1bwFWgJuXMC%2FbPvLnbvdGuAyDSJDbqEx%2B%2Bep62vvTMXkiQGQG9cvRfElNO6gx9fckkqRaEwzph0AZGmiZFLYJP0%2FEZePnJSu60RsvnZ13ERorw3jsJKl7O5LrDyUh14IAnRrqCP8H9fjK2gnLVelmINptBgHXt8VGvVsL1dlAHk84ZWTh%2F5NhdwTp4V0rUEiZxTHf%2Fuilag6UmnxRVvltlT7aJUUll62W3FWPixrBrjRuQTGLjnr6hxwB7t%2FDevyRwW7GNPllYZmM1lMkAhd%2FuMYc6sg7tcRcceqbs3QXHzwu5pRW04%3D&checksum=20287254946321373ab7df7b4123bbe0bef05d201fa3

Sorry; I couldn't resist. Smile
Note that the link is actually to a 10A supply, but that's probably 3 times what the radio needs, so still plenty of 'headroom'.

Charlie
OOPS.. Brain freeze....$17 gets you *one* upconverter, if you buy two. Anyway, less than $20 gets you where you need to be. You can buy more pedigreed versions for around $50-$75.

Charlie


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Eric Page



Joined: 15 Feb 2017
Posts: 136

PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:41 pm    Post subject: Charge Pump Reply with quote

Jeff,
Aircraft Spruce has brand new comm radios from Dynon, Flightline, Garmin, ICOM, MGL and Microair, all for significantly less than the $1,500 you quoted for a used 28V King. Using one of them, you'd have a brand new radio, with a warranty, and no monkey motion required for voltage conversion.

If that's not an option for some reason and you definitely need the King radio, then you're looking for a switch-mode boost converter, not a switched-capacitor charge pump. Here's something on eBay that may work:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/332594877042

That seller has modules at various current levels. If I were you I'd buy the 15-amp model, as Chinese manufacturers tend to inflate their product specs.
There are probably other options as well, if you want to look around. I found that by searching for "boost converter 12V 24V 10A".

Eric




On Thursday, February 6, 2020, 01:12:43 PM PST, Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net> wrote:


Hello members,
I'm wondering how difficult it would be to build a 14-to-28 volt charge-pump power supply. It would need to supply about 7 amps.
Here's why I'm asking... There are lots of 28v KX-155s on Ebay that are fairly in-expensive at around $1500 compared to 12v models that can sell for up to $1000 more.
So if I could fabricate such a power supply for around $100, I would be ahead of the game.
I'm interested in the calculations on how to size the capacitors and the frequency to run the charge pump.
Any insight is greatly appreciated,


-Jeff


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:58 pm    Post subject: Charge Pump Reply with quote

... now why didn't I think of that? Wink
I searched Amazon for 12v-24v converter and didn't find anything useful. Thanks for the correct search phrase. I wonder how much ripple is in the output.
For those low prices, it doesn't make sense to even try to make one. But as a die-hard electro-geek I'm still interested in a charge-pump circuit & cap sizes.
Per the King spec sheet, the KX-155 needs 6A at 24v.
Thanks Charlie,
-Jeff

On Thursday, February 6, 2020, 01:47:16 PM PST, Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> wrote:




On 2/6/2020 3:32 PM, Charlie England wrote:
Quote:

On 2/6/2020 2:51 PM, Jeff Luckey wrote:
Quote:

Hello members,

I'm wondering how difficult it would be to build a 14-to-28 volt charge-pump power supply. It would need to supply about 7 amps.

Here's why I'm asking... There are lots of 28v KX-155s on Ebay that are fairly in-expensive at around $1500 compared to 12v models that can sell for up to $1000 more.

So if I could fabricate such a power supply for around $100, I would be ahead of the game.

I'm interested in the calculations on how to size the capacitors and the frequency to run the charge pump.

Any insight is greatly appreciated,


-Jeff

Yes, it can be done Here's how to calculate the values: Start with $100. Divide by 5.88 Go to ebay. Search '12v to 24v stepup converter'. With the result from the previous calculation, get one converter, plus a spare. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Waterproof-DC12V-to-DC-24V-20A-480W-Step-Up-Power-Supply-Converter-Regulator-Kit/202872549463?_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=item2f3c257057:m:mA-xAWABizqWlOLEyA6v7Nw&enc=AQAEAAACUBPxNw%2BVj6nta7CKEs3N0qUXW1%2Fq6HuXoJTIAajkTxvX%2FthCD%2BMtQ9lOxF6IWwWFRnOCDAOfp2kcY%2FayMmdc6Z2eRgn%2BFiiPY0P5BtYG1KcorbK%2FmeMRiVwLI8vEwVf0wSo9f79LRzTetEN9dtRtx6VmJgBqd%2BQqmMO6IsoUKer6LyYxh40VjEXp1PjMj35gPvxWVWLaQ8G6O0y%2B%2B1GB%2F7hRHfA7qBtnk6bZTiFNEfuQspUJsdRqSP9OFtTDDAVj3QNaR0mWqKDYKXLzO8bQca9iNmmytJK6nLFAJNGwzmMAu1MiCMBWcPieqAWjyVSfz%2FO8BSZT0pEtEWtNSh3tWKB5xqkNY9Qhs7WbGe8EuAt32ewwx67hNfV8rngHDCpQyvXAfj4idhRVXTtwo%2Fk9O8bcfPkxhX9dxRv0Vw7MsNH8rzQMn%2BrO8KfDqcJ9x9Rk%2BjtBxhHAW9Iz%2FwP2NKVkIn19K13qj2sXDDTi1bwFWgJuXMC%2FbPvLnbvdGuAyDSJDbqEx%2B%2Bep62vvTMXkiQGQG9cvRfElNO6gx9fckkqRaEwzph0AZGmiZFLYJP0%2FEZePnJSu60RsvnZ13ERorw3jsJKl7O5LrDyUh14IAnRrqCP8H9fjK2gnLVelmINptBgHXt8VGvVsL1dlAHk84ZWTh%2F5NhdwTp4V0rUEiZxTHf%2Fuilag6UmnxRVvltlT7aJUUll62W3FWPixrBrjRuQTGLjnr6hxwB7t%2FDevyRwW7GNPllYZmM1lMkAhd%2FuMYc6sg7tcRcceqbs3QXHzwu5pRW04%3D&checksum=20287254946321373ab7df7b4123bbe0bef05d201fa3 Sorry; I couldn't resist. Smile Note that the link is actually to a 10A supply, but that's probably 3 times what the radio needs, so still plenty of 'headroom'. Charlie OOPS.. Brain freeze....$17 gets you *one* upconverter, if you buy two. Anyway, less than $20 gets you where you need to be. You can buy more pedigreed versions for around $50-$75. Charlie


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Eric Page



Joined: 15 Feb 2017
Posts: 136

PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 2:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Charge Pump Reply with quote

Quote:
But as a die-hard electro-geek I'm still interested in a charge-pump circuit & cap sizes.


You'll be hard-pressed to find any switched-capacitor charge pump that will work at those current levels. The highest current charge pump IC that Digi-Key has in stock maxes out at 4.5A, and everything else is rated for 500mA or less.

If you're interested, the 4.5A part is here: https://www.digikey.com/short/z3mwj1

Eric

P.S. Upon reflection, the 10A module that Charlie and I linked to on eBay would probably be sufficient, and lighter than the 15A module. The radio will only draw the full 6A while transmitting, and that's only for brief periods.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 6:09 pm    Post subject: Charge Pump Reply with quote

And the electrical noise?????
Rich

Sent from my iPhone

Quote:
On Feb 6, 2020, at 3:35 PM, Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> wrote:

how


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 3:01 am    Post subject: Charge Pump Reply with quote

On 2020-02-06, at 20:51, Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net> wrote:

Quote:
I'm wondering how difficult it would be to build a 14-to-28 volt charge-pump power supply. It would need to supply about 7 amps.


Jeff - I went through this process some time back for a 24V gyro, which had a much lower current demand - see my journal page:

http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk/aviation/europa_435/24vconverter.php

Here attached as a PDF is the process I used to choose component values - it may be of some use to you. And my spare components are still available, should you want any of them, although postage to USA might be pricey.

in friendship

Rowland

| Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...
| <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com> http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk
| Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson


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racerjerry



Joined: 15 Dec 2009
Posts: 194
Location: Deer Park, NY

PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 3:55 am    Post subject: Re: Charge Pump Reply with quote

1 KX-155 is an OLD radio
2 KX-155 digital displays (very common failure) are no longer available as a replacement part
3 Cheaper options are available
4 VOR stations are rapidly disappearing because of GPS navigation - forget VOR
5 A good hand-held radio connected to an external antenna will work just as good as panel mount

LOW BUDGET JERRY


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:52 am    Post subject: Charge Pump Reply with quote

At 04:59 AM 2/10/2020, you wrote:
Quote:
On 2020-02-06, at 20:51, Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net> wrote:

> I'm wondering how difficult it would be to build a 14-to-28 volt charge-pump power supply. It would need to supply about 7 amps.

You threw me a curve ball with the 'charge pump'
thingy . . . but after following the thread
it's apparent that you're needing a 12 -> 24
volt up-converter. A 'charge pump' is a particular
kind of energy converter limited to very low
power systems.

The critter you're looking for is more like this.

https://tinyurl.com/rjxn3eo

perhaps a little 'beefier' than you need
but already robustly packaged and convenient
to wire up.



Bob . . .


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n233ee(at)gmail.com
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:24 am    Post subject: Charge Pump Reply with quote

Is the input ground isolated from the output?

Quote:
On Feb 13, 2020, at 7:57 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:

 At 04:59 AM 2/10/2020, you wrote:
Quote:
On 2020-02-06, at 20:51, Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net> wrote:

> I'm wondering how difficult it would be to build a 14-to-28 volt charge-pump power supply. It would need to supply about 7 amps.

You threw me a curve ball with the 'charge pump'
thingy . . . but after following the thread
it's apparent that you're needing a 12 -> 24
volt up-converter. A 'charge pump' is a particular
kind of energy converter limited to very low
power systems.

The critter you're looking for is more like this.

https://tinyurl.com/rjxn3eo

perhaps a little 'beefier' than you need
but already robustly packaged and convenient
to wire up.



Bob . . .


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:12 am    Post subject: Charge Pump Reply with quote

At 08:22 AM 2/13/2020, you wrote:
Quote:
Is the input ground isolated from the output?

Probably not. It's difficult to find
such devices with 'isolated' or 'floating'
outputs. They exist and generally in
low power (couple watts) versions.

Examples: https://tinyurl.com/rplxlsk



Bob . . .


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:53 am    Post subject: Charge Pump Reply with quote

Bob,
So what is the basic circuit design in the 12-24v step-up supply you reference on EBay? An inverter, transformer, rectifier?
-Jeff

On Thursday, February 13, 2020, 06:01:17 AM PST, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:




At 04:59 AM 2/10/2020, you wrote:
Quote:
On 2020-02-06, at 20:51, Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net> wrote:

> I'm wondering how difficult it would be to build a 14-to-28 volt charge-pump power supply. It would need to supply about 7 amps.

You threw me a curve ball with the 'charge pump'
thingy . . . but after following the thread
it's apparent that you're needing a 12 -> 24
volt up-converter. A 'charge pump' is a particular
kind of energy converter limited to very low
power systems.

The critter you're looking for is more like this.

https://tinyurl.com/rjxn3eo

perhaps a little 'beefier' than you need
but already robustly packaged and convenient
to wire up.



Bob . . .


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:43 am    Post subject: Charge Pump Reply with quote

At 10:51 AM 2/13/2020, you wrote:
Quote:
Bob,

So what is the basic circuit design in the 12-24v step-up supply you reference on EBay? An inverter, transformer, rectifier?

-Jeff

The vast majority will use the configuration
posted by Rowland. This is the lowest parts count,
easiest to implement. The number and style of
filter components on inputs and outputs will
vary but the basic step-up architecture is constant.

Isolated supplies require a transformer.
They'll be more expensive.



Bob . . .


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:49 am    Post subject: Charge Pump Reply with quote

I run a 28volt T&B off a cheap ($4.?) ebay 12 to 24 volt adjustable
converter.  Think it was rated at about 3 amps which is way more than
needed.  It has common grounds.  It's mounted in a little plastic box
and taped to a wire bundle under the dash.  I have not noticed any
interference with the gps or radio.  Weighs next to nothing.
Ken

On 13/02/2020 9:22 AM, Earl Schroeder wrote:
Quote:
Is the input ground isolated from the output?



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:58 am    Post subject: Charge Pump Reply with quote

This might work for me: WRB1224YMD-6W. https://www.ebay.com/itm/3-pcs-5-12-15-24-48V-6W-Isolated-Regulated-Dual-Single-Output-DC-DC-Converter/222767551092?hash=item33ddfb1274:m:m7JLZJsEF2VDrfRwBcZHJsg
I am supplying 24V to a dozen or so 4-20 mA instruments Four CH, EG, 2 fuel tank levels etc. This is for a back up in case the existing 12-24 unit fails. I have discovered that it is no longer available.
Thanks for your help, Earl Schroeder
P.S. I have four or so 12 V battery chargers that have failed over the years. Most are ‘Shusmackers’.. anyway that is what I call them. Let me know if you want to ‘look’ at them before they hit the trash. (I live near Evansville, IN). 7ii3 on St Louis sec.

Quote:
On Feb 13, 2020, at 10:18 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:

 At 08:22 AM 2/13/2020, you wrote:
Quote:
Is the input ground isolated from the output?

Probably not. It's difficult to find
such devices with 'isolated' or 'floating'
outputs. They exist and generally in
low power (couple watts) versions.

Examples: https://tinyurl.com/rplxlsk



Bob . . .


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