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Jerry-TS-MkII
Joined: 23 Aug 2017
Posts: 79
Location: Indiana
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 Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 2:31 pm Post subject: Different tail feathers for a Twinstar MK II?? |
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Hello to all..
This may be redundant.. I've never had much luck with search engines on the forums. I need to get to work on this MKII.. and I've heard lots about offset fins, trim tabs, and slow flutter issues. Uh.. ANY indication to flutter, IMHO needs revision. I'm considering a new tail group, with built in trim tabs, (using a servo drive for each), and aerodynamic and physical balance as well. I was never fond of the over-simplified outlines.. because I'm sure they were intended as simple. But there isn't much rocket science to building better ones, with balance.. that are much less prone to flag-waving and/or departure from the aircraft. And I know there are many opinions.. but curious about what others might have to say.. or like the photo link to a balanced rudder (which looked rather out of place.. ie long tube forward, with steep pipe to balance it).. but if it worked, that is what is hugely important. One thought on this possible revision, is a resettable leading edge offset for either the fin or the horizontal stab.. or even using them as the primary "trim" function. (aka J-3 Cub trim). Hope all is well with everyone, Jerry
And if you want to quote anything, just copy and paste a section.. I really want to avoid my email being posted here, in each quote. THX
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williamtsullivan(at)att.n
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| Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 4:53 pm Post subject: Different tail feathers for a Twinstar MK II?? |
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Richard Pike did some work along those lines. If he doesn't see this, get ahold of him on Facebook.
Bill Sullivan
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jerry-TS-MkII"
Hello to all..
This may be redundant.. I've never had much luck with search engines on the forums. I need to get to work on this MKII.. and I've heard lots about offset fins, trim tabs, and slow flutter issues. Uh.. ANY indication to flutter, IMHO needs revision. I'm considering a new tail group, with built in trim tabs, (using a servo drive for each), and aerodynamic and physical balance as well. I was never fond of the over-simplified outlines.. because I'm sure they were intended as simple. But there isn't much rocket science to building better ones, with balance.. that are much less prone to flag-waving and/or departure from the aircraft. And I know there are many opinions.. but curious about what others might have to say.. or like the photo link to a balanced rudder (which looked rather out of place.. ie long tube forward, with steep pipe to balance it).. but if it worked, that is what is hugely important. One thought on this possible revision, is a resettable leading edge offs!
et for either the fin or the horizontal stab.. or even using them as the primary "trim" function. (aka J-3 Cub trim). Hope all is well with everyone, Jerry
And if you want to quote anything, just copy and paste a section.. I really want to avoid my email being posted here, in each quote. THX
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.m=================
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gdhelton(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 5:31 am Post subject: Different tail feathers for a Twinstar MK II?? |
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I personally never found a thing wrong with Homer’s original design on my MKII Twinstar. Why try to reinvent a good, simple design that works?
Just my experience.
George Helton
Original Firestar, Hirth 2702
Mesick, Michigan
gdhelton(at)gmail.com
Sent from my iPhone
| Quote: | On Nov 17, 2019, at 5:33 PM, Jerry-TS-MkII <1957grnchev(at)bluemarble.net> wrote:
Hello to all..
This may be redundant.. I've never had much luck with search engines on the forums. I need to get to work on this MKII.. and I've heard lots about offset fins, trim tabs, and slow flutter issues. Uh.. ANY indication to flutter, IMHO needs revision. I'm considering a new tail group, with built in trim tabs, (using a servo drive for each), and aerodynamic and physical balance as well. I was never fond of the over-simplified outlines.. because I'm sure they were intended as simple. But there isn't much rocket science to building better ones, with balance.. that are much less prone to flag-waving and/or departure from the aircraft. And I know there are many opinions.. but curious about what others might have to say.. or like the photo link to a balanced rudder (which looked rather out of place.. ie long tube forward, with steep pipe to balance it).. but if it worked, that is what is hugely important. One thought on this possible revision, is a resettable leading edge offs!
et for either the fin or the horizontal stab.. or even using them as the primary "trim" function. (aka J-3 Cub trim). Hope all is well with everyone, Jerry
And if you want to quote anything, just copy and paste a section.. I really want to avoid my email being posted here, in each quote. THX
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=493086#493086
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Richard Pike
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1669
Location: Blountville, Tennessee
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| Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 7:38 am Post subject: Re: Different tail feathers for a Twinstar MK II?? |
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"Richard Pike did some work along those lines. If he doesn't see this, get ahold of him on Facebook. Bill Sullivan"
I think he is referring to my admitedly curious rudder counterbalance:
" or like the photo link to a balanced rudder (which looked rather out of place.. ie long tube forward, with steep pipe to balance it).. but if it worked, that is what is hugely important. "
http://oh2fly.net/oldpoops/pg6.htm
As long as you keep your feet on the rudder pedals, no flutter. Take your feet off the pedals, you need some serious tension springs. My springs were as strong as I could deal with, in terms of hooking them up, and they were insufficient, so I went with a counterbalance.
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_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing. |
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zeprep251(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 6:35 am Post subject: Different tail feathers for a Twinstar MK II?? |
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Dealt with this also. Recommend you search “P” factor in aviation.
Sent from my iPhone
| Quote: | On Nov 18, 2019, at 10:38 AM, Richard Pike <thegreybaron(at)charter.net> wrote:
"Richard Pike did some work along those lines. If he doesn't see this, get ahold of him on Facebook. Bill Sullivan"
I think he is referring to my admitedly curious rudder counterbalance:
" or like the photo link to a balanced rudder (which looked rather out of place.. ie long tube forward, with steep pipe to balance it).. but if it worked, that is what is hugely important. "
http://oh2fly.net/oldpoops/pg6.htm
As long as you keep your feet on the rudder pedals, no flutter. Take your feet off the pedals, you need some serious tension springs. My springs were as strong as I could deal with, in terms of hooking them up, and they were insufficient, so I went with a counterbalance.
--------
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kolb Firefly Part 103 legal
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=493106#493106
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jhauck36(at)outlook.com
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| Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 6:46 am Post subject: Different tail feathers for a Twinstar MK II?? |
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I had a rudder flutter problem if I didn't keep constant pressure on the rudder pedals. After many years of experimenting I tried doubling heavy springs. It worked. No more flutter. There is no increase in rudder pedal resistance because the springs neutralize their force equally. Can fly with feet on the deck without rudder flutter.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
--
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Jerry-TS-MkII
Joined: 23 Aug 2017
Posts: 79
Location: Indiana
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| Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2019 8:31 am Post subject: Re: Different tail feathers for a Twinstar MK II?? |
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Thanks for the replies. My EAA involvement, and GA include rebuilding 3 AC that were BER, work on several different home-builts, successful, beneficial modifications to ultra-lights.. or designing, building and lofting a 32' steel truss on my hanger, all solo, no crane, 854 lbs. LOTS of people have designed complete airplanes, built their own, or modified other designs. I DO appreciate Homer as one of those people. That doesn't prevent or discourage me from going forward. Each of his designs were built upon his previous efforts, good ones and bad. To hear of "springs" to keep a rudder or elevator from flutter, or to trim in flight, IS the scary part of this, for me. Springs add loads and wear.. and things do break. If a rudder cable breaks, you can still fly the plane.. UNLESS it progresses into genuine flutter, and THAT may well REMOVE the whole tail group, from the plane, in flight. THAT is not good. Inadvertent modifications are the ones to avoid.
I remember reaching into a Christian Eagle that came into BMG when I was working avionics. Moving the stick took less effort than my computer mouse. I know a MKII is not a "precision" AC by design, but there is no reason why control surfaces shouldn't be balanced, and easy to operate.. and without fear of flutter. It's killed a lot of people, in MANY different aircraft. Some owners have added trim tabs.. some are only ground adjustable. And most all of those.. to me.. look like ADD-ONS! Being attached to thin ribs, or the T/E.. seems marginal to me. If I add two servos (pitch and yaw).. w/metal gears, water-proof.. and the surfaces are balanced, it could be flown with the trims.. if something else failed. Redundancy is a good thing.
And while it is a 2 place AC... I'll probably set it up for solo flight. With a 503, and less runway than I prefer, that seems to be the best option. But it also means if I add a small amount of weight to the tail (IF that is required).. I'll have the option to re-balance it, without a significant performance penalty.. probably with larger "tundra type" tires and good brakes.
While not 8' beds, I do have a stomp shear, and a sheet metal break, so fabricating "flanged ribs" versus those made from tubing, is a option not every AC owner has available. This type of rib is MUCH MORE the accepted AC form, but not as easy to produce, as cut-mash-bend-drill aluminum tubing ribs.
I understand that some people here on the group, think of Homer's creations as sacred. Others think of them as kits.. with exact, "follow the instructions" and assemble, without previous AC experience. And both of those aspects came from the ultra-light movement, of simple, easy to build, relatively inexpensive aircraft. There is likely a much smaller percentage of Kolb List members who are truly Experimental aircraft builders (in the original sense). But even many of those very early EXPs, might have taken the wings from a GA AC to be put onto a scratch built fuse, etc. Doing so, should not be done, but within each persons desires, expertise, and research.
Due diligence: action that is considered reasonable for people to be expected to take in order to keep themselves or others and their property safe. If anyone wishes to communicate further, please send me a PM.. and please don't quote my posts. I don't appreciate my email address being posted. But I do welcome input from any who are like minded, or have done similar work. Thanks!! Jerry
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williamtsullivan(at)att.n
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| Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2019 8:49 am Post subject: Different tail feathers for a Twinstar MK II?? |
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Jerry- Fly it before you decide to modify it. Every Kolb design is safe and stable as designed. John Hauck and Richard Pike have many, many years of experience in flying, building, and modifying various versions of Kolbs. For ultra light weight, Jack Hart has the most carefully documented work around. Don't play with more than one thing at a time, either. We had somebody recently who had a very bad experience with that, engineering his way into problems, instead of out of them.
Bill Sullivan
On Friday, November 22, 2019, 11:31:54 AM EST, Jerry-TS-MkII <1957grnchev(at)bluemarble.net> wrote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jerry-TS-MkII" <1957grnchev(at)bluemarble.net (1957grnchev(at)bluemarble.net)>
Thanks for the replies. My EAA involvement, and GA include rebuilding 3 AC that were BER, work on several different home-builts, successful, beneficial modifications to ultra-lights. or designing, building and lofting a 32' steel truss on my hanger, all solo, no crane, 854 lbs. LOTS of people have designed complete airplanes, built their own, or modified other designs. I DO appreciate Homer as one of those people. That doesn't prevent or discourage me from going forward. Each of his designs were built upon his previous efforts, good ones and bad. To hear of "springs" to keep a rudder or elevator from flutter, or to trim in flight, IS the scary part of this, for me. Springs add loads and wear.. and things do break. If a rudder cable breaks, you can still fly the plane.. UNLESS it progresses into genuine flutter, and THAT may well REMOVE the whole tail group, from the plane, in flight. THAT is not good. Inadvertent modifications are the ones to avoid.
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
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