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Container contingency

 
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Hitchflight



Joined: 22 Feb 2018
Posts: 92
Location: Derbyshire, England

PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 8:49 am    Post subject: Container contingency Reply with quote

As part of contingency preparation for a prospective trip I would like to check the feasibility of fitting a Europa XS Mono in a 20’ container. The 20’ container is attractive, in that the Europa would just fit in as a complete aircraft with wings detached. Assume the availability of a fuselage cradle, strapping and air bags to fill the remaining void.

Perhaps someone is currently using a 20’ container as a hanger?
The key point appears to be the difference between length of the aircraft fuselage and the available internal length of the container. The remainder is 50mm not much margin for error! On paper it should work? But how does the prospective solution look in the real world?

Diagram attached.

Regards
Bob


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JonathanMilbank



Joined: 14 Apr 2012
Posts: 383
Location: Aberdeen area

PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 4:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Container contingency Reply with quote

The rudder's easy enough to remove. So's the spinner!

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Hitchflight



Joined: 22 Feb 2018
Posts: 92
Location: Derbyshire, England

PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:15 am    Post subject: Re: Container contingency Reply with quote

Hi Jonathon and the three others that replied off list.

Good input. Thank-you.

What has become clear is how seemingly perfect it would be for the Tri-Gear. But, in my case, being a tail-dragger with a Singleton tailwheel removing the rudder doesn’t bring a big advantage. See picture. The Singleton tailwheel projects a long way beyond the fuselage. Furthermore the rakish angle of the Mono on the ground also consumes marginally more of the available length inside the Container compared to the Tri-Gear. (See picture below)

Noting in the ideal circumstance I would not want to remove a control surface.

Nevertheless it has been a good exercise. A 20 foot container is great contingency option. Thanks to all for the advice.

And for the record I love the Singleton tailwheel. It is just so much more forgiving than its predecessors.

Regards

Bob


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Patrick Tunney



Joined: 24 Sep 2010
Posts: 33

PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:10 am    Post subject: Re: Container contingency Reply with quote

What about putting it diagonally or using a 30 foot container.

I know when i was looking at storage in a container located at an airfield i ruled out a 20 foot container.


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Hitchflight



Joined: 22 Feb 2018
Posts: 92
Location: Derbyshire, England

PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 3:06 am    Post subject: Re: Container contingency Reply with quote

Hi Patrick.

Thanks for your useful comment, a slight twist may help!

Am reconciled to the use of a white gloves service or the 20 foot in any hopefully rare hypothetical worse case recovery. Whenever I’ve had an issue to date I have been able to solve with parts carried or have received outstanding support from European based Europa Club members or general friendly airfield support in Europe.

ISO shipping containers usually come out of the factory as 40ft or 20ft, the universal size for intermodal transport and shipping. A 20ft container is are always available. The 30ft is rare by comparison and is often a cut down 40ft. The price paid for hiring a 30ft container would likely be the same as a 40 foot. The larger the container the less chance a small port on a small island would be able to handle in a contingency situation of trying to get your plane back from the middle of nowhere. If constrained to not use multimodal containers the costs increase. So ease of using multimodal transport is key. The cost of handling increases with size. So the movement of a 20 foot container is say £1000 to £2500 depending on where in the world you are stuck. A 30 ft or 40 ft would be say £1800 to £3500.

It is possible to contract out the solution. A white gloves service capable organisation could sort out the return, paying £1500 to well over £10000 . Key is what was the incident that necessitated the contingency and what event the existing aircraft insurance covers. What is paid for the insurance and what does the insurance actually cover in respect of recovery, if anything.

White gloves service: A premium delivery service, with special attention to details, especially with fragile or very expensive items, such as works of art (i.e. a Europa).


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n7188u



Joined: 15 Nov 2015
Posts: 395

PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:47 am    Post subject: Re: Container contingency Reply with quote

Call me crazy but I think that if I was thinking about shipping my Europa (and actually my wife and I are dreaming about taking it to Europe from the US one day) I would consider modifying the tailwheel to make it fully removable if that meant you can then use a 20' container.

I know this is not an option for our British counterparts but for us in the US it is no issue. It also doesn't look technically impossible (and you even wonder why it is not?).

Chris


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davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 1:24 pm    Post subject: Container contingency Reply with quote

Chris, It is of course easy enough to remove the prop. David Joyce, G-XSDJ


On 2019-11-20 19:47, n7188u wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
--> Europa-List message posted by: "n7188u" <chmgarb(at)gmail.com (chmgarb(at)gmail.com)>

Call me crazy but I think that if I was thinking about shipping my Europa (and actually my wife and I are dreaming about taking it to Europe from the US one day) I would consider modifying the tailwheel to make it fully removable if that meant you can then use a 20' container.

I know this is not an option for our British counterparts but for us in the US it is no issue. It also doesn't look technically impossible (and you even wonder why it is not?).

Chris


Read this topic online here:

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wdaniell.longport(at)gmai
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:20 am    Post subject: Container contingency Reply with quote

I am interested in this thread for other reasons......florida hurricanes.   Although a direct hit can tumble containers hundreds of yards i feel my xs will be a lot safer in a container than in my rickety hangar.

William Daniell
LONGPORT
+57 310 295 0744
On Wed, Nov 20, 2019, 16:26 <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk)> wrote:

Quote:

Chris, It is of course easy enough to remove the prop. David Joyce, G-XSDJ
   

On 2019-11-20 19:47, n7188u wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
--> Europa-List message posted by: "n7188u" <chmgarb(at)gmail.com (chmgarb(at)gmail.com)>

Call me crazy but I think that if I was thinking about shipping my Europa (and actually my wife and I are dreaming about taking it to Europe from the US one day) I would consider modifying the tailwheel to make it fully removable if that meant you can then use a 20' container.

I know this is not an option for our British counterparts but for us in the US it is no issue. It also doesn't look technically impossible (and you even wonder why it is not?).

Chris


Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=493211#493211
.matronics.com/contribution
ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
ics.com
.com
.matronics.com/contribution




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budyerly@msn.com



Joined: 05 Oct 2019
Posts: 280
Location: Florida USA

PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:29 am    Post subject: Container contingency Reply with quote

My two cents is if on the EUROPA trailer, pull the prop. Stap it down to the floor, strap the wheel hard to the trailer. If on a dolly


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From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> on behalf of davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>
Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2019 4:23:15 PM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com <europa-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Container contingency


Chris, It is of course easy enough to remove the prop. David Joyce, G-XSDJ


On 2019-11-20 19:47, n7188u wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
--> Europa-List message posted by: "n7188u" <chmgarb(at)gmail.com (chmgarb(at)gmail.com)>

Call me crazy but I think that if I was thinking about shipping my Europa (and actually my wife and I are dreaming about taking it to Europe from the US one day) I would consider modifying the tailwheel to make it fully removable if that meant you can then use a 20' container.

I know this is not an option for our British counterparts but for us in the US it is no issue. It also doesn't look technically impossible (and you even wonder why it is not?).

Chris


Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=493211#493211
.matronics.com/contribution
ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
ics.com
.com
.matronics.com/contribution



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budyerly@msn.com



Joined: 05 Oct 2019
Posts: 280
Location: Florida USA

PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:31 am    Post subject: Container contingency Reply with quote

If on the dolly, remove the rudder also and really strap it down. I have photos in archive on shipping done wrong.


Bud Yerly


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From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> on behalf of davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>
Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2019 4:23:15 PM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com <europa-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Container contingency


Chris, It is of course easy enough to remove the prop. David Joyce, G-XSDJ


On 2019-11-20 19:47, n7188u wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
--> Europa-List message posted by: "n7188u" <chmgarb(at)gmail.com (chmgarb(at)gmail.com)>

Call me crazy but I think that if I was thinking about shipping my Europa (and actually my wife and I are dreaming about taking it to Europe from the US one day) I would consider modifying the tailwheel to make it fully removable if that meant you can then use a 20' container.

I know this is not an option for our British counterparts but for us in the US it is no issue. It also doesn't look technically impossible (and you even wonder why it is not?).

Chris


Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=493211#493211
.matronics.com/contribution
ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
ics.com
.com
.matronics.com/contribution



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n7188u



Joined: 15 Nov 2015
Posts: 395

PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 2:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Container contingency Reply with quote

I didn't know than by just by removing the prop it would fit in a 20 foot container. My bad for not reading carefully Smile

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roberthatton1(at)googlema
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2019 1:08 am    Post subject: Container contingency Reply with quote

Chris,

Do your homework if you do ship your Europa to Europe and then wish to ship it back to the USA again. I shipped a Europa from the UK to the USA and the “white glove” UK shipper that I used, who was supposedly an expert in shipping aircraft, proved completely incompetent.

I was told that the shipping company “had to be responsible” for cleaning my aircraft and trailer, which I was nervous about in case during the cleaning the aircraft was damaged. I went as far as insisting that I would clean my aircraft myself, only to be told not to worry for they would do it since they needed to go to a specialized cleaning station and this would be backed up by paperwork they would need for the shipping. However, the shipper never did clean my Europa or trailer (although I was charged for the privilege!). I used a 40 foot shipping container for the Europa trailer would be put into the back of it, taking up about 20ish feet, and then household goods were in the front half of the container.

When my shipping container arrived at Houston, the port of entry, US border control briefly opened the container doors to observe “Heterogaster Urticae” or Nettle Bugs wandering around my container. These little creatures are indigenous to the UK and quite rightly US border control did not want an alien bug entering the USA with unknown repercussions the the USA environment. The US had just managed, after many years trying, to eradicate a species of moth that had been an ‘import’ and had caused havoc to US agriculture, so it is totally understandable that they did not want any other unknown bugs coming into their country. I was given seven days to remove the container including the Europa, from US soil or it would be destroyed and I would be billed for the destruction. Not a happy moment in my life!

Without any options the container returned to the UK where I met it and subsequently cleaned the aircraft and trailer myself at a dockside cleaning station – removing all traces of what little mud and dirt there was – and found there was no paperwork to be had, for this action of cleaning counts for “squat”. In my research I found out that the container should have originally been fumigated in the first place “to kill all known bugs dead” and the shipper had never done this either. Toxic fumigant being somewhat more effective than ‘soap and water’. I organized a fumigation company, but then had to make sure the fumigant being used was acceptable to the US border control authority – here you do have to supply paperwork showing when and what fumigant had been used - whilst at the same time what fumigants are available and legal to use in the UK that still satisfy the US requirements. Not originally having this paperwork was probably a huge red flag to US border control to inspect the container. The fumigators, wrapped up in their protective clothing, for the stuff they use is just as lethal to humans as it is to bugs, threw in a couple of fumigant pellets like hand grenades and rapidly shut the container doors to seal the fumigant in to do its stuff. The container then made a repeat crossing back over the Atlantic.

Although I looked at suing the shipper after my first experience I ran a credit check on him and his company, and found out that he had previously shipped another ‘plane before mine to the USA where that shipment had also gone wrong. He had been sued by that owner and was in debt after the court action and had no assets to speak of. I also could not afford to go with another company and the shipper offered to re-ship my container without further charge. It seems that the shipper wound up the company he was trading under that I dealt with not long after my saga, but what I find disturbing is that he has popped back up under a new name and is still trading as a shipping agent.

The second time the container arrived it came through US Border checks fine. However, it was rail freighted across the USA, which I then found out is a huge mistake. When it finally arrived and I opened up the container, extracted the trailer and pulled my Europa out, I found that it had been damaged. The trailer I have is an enclosed one. It had been extremely securely tied down in the container and the Europa strapped down inside the trailer. My Europa is a mono, and the tailwheel had been bolted into the floor of the trailer. Sadly, the bolts had sheared and the rudder bashed into the trailer roof and caught the leading edges of the wings. That was a bit of an ‘own goal’ for I should have known better and Bud is totally right by saying “really strap it down” – emphasis on strap!

The shipper had arranged the insurance and whilst he had insured for the first and second outgoing trips from the UK to the US, he had omitted to insure the container for its return from the US to the UK. The insurers then tried to get out of the claim because of this. Another nightmare to go through. The insurer was also an international company and “paused trading” after the tsunami hit Japan and they effectively were themselves swamped with claims which resulted in their US arm filing for Chapter 11 bankruptcy. They did resurrect themselves, but it all took time before I could get an loss adjustor out to inspect my claim.

The adjustor asked why I had used rail freight for the land element of the journey and not road transport for the container. I had not chosen rail freight, it had just been organized by the shipper, and I did not know any better. I do now, and the adjustor explained that aircraft should never be shipped by rail. His conclusion was that the train’s sharp jerking movements as the freight cars are pulled to get going and braked to stop, then they shunt into each other were the most likely reason for the stress on the bolts holding the tail down causing them to shear. The roll of a ship is smoother, and he thought it unlikely that the ship’s rolling at sea was to blame. Thankfully though the claim was eventually paid.

I do not wish to pour cold water on what should be an achievable dream but for the modern world’s bureaucracy, rules, regulations and red tape, but shipping an aircraft to and from Europe is a very complex exercise. I became somewhat of an expert after everything went wrong for me and I found out what the shipper should have done in the first place for me, his client. The other aspect to consider is flying an ‘N’ registered experimental aircraft in Europe that did not fly into a European country, but just arrived there and then was assembled to fly from that country. However, please do not be put off, I would just say reach out to the necessary authorities and maybe you’d find one who could accommodate your dream and allow you to fly from there and then throughout the rest of Europe.

And finally, I did remove the prop completely because I thought it safer to have the shipper box it up rather than leave it on the Europa risking any potential damage to it or the gearbox. The shipper use a wooden box too small to fit the spinner properly, without any packing material and crushed the spinner when screwing the lid down.

Good luck! Would I ship an aircraft again – no! I’d fly it over the Atlantic, for I reckon it would be less risk to the aircraft and certainly I’d keep my sanity intact. (Get a long range tank for your Europa and meet your wife over there.)

Rob Hatton

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> On Behalf Of Bud Yerly
Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 8:30 AM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: Container contingency

If on the dolly, remove the rudder also and really strap it down. I have photos in archive on shipping done wrong.

Bud Yerly

Get Outlook for Android


From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com) <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com)> on behalf of davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk) <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk)>
Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2019 4:23:15 PM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com) <europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)>
Subject: Re: Re: Container contingency

Chris, It is of course easy enough to remove the prop. David Joyce, G-XSDJ



On 2019-11-20 19:47, n7188u wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
--> Europa-List message posted by: "n7188u" <chmgarb(at)gmail.com (chmgarb(at)gmail.com)> Call me crazy but I think that if I was thinking about shipping my Europa (and actually my wife and I are dreaming about taking it to Europe from the US one day) I would consider modifying the tailwheel to make it fully removable if that meant you can then use a 20' container. I know this is not an option for our British counterparts but for us in the US it is no issue. It also doesn't look technically impossible (and you even wonder why it is not?). Chris  
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Call me crazy but I think that if I was thinking about shipping my Europa (and actually my wife and I are dreaming about taking it to Europe from the US one day) I would consider modifying the tailwheel to make it fully removable if that meant you can then use a 20' container.
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Call me crazy but I think that if I was thinking about shipping my Europa (and actually my wife and I are dreaming about taking it to Europe from the US one day) I would consider modifying the tailwheel to make it fully removable if that meant you can then use a 20' container.
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Call me crazy but I think that if I was thinking about shipping my Europa (and actually my wife and I are dreaming about taking it to Europe from the US one day) I would consider modifying the tailwheel to make it fully removable if that meant you can then use a 20' container.
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Call me crazy but I think that if I was thinking about shipping my Europa (and actually my wife and I are dreaming about taking it to Europe from the US one day) I would consider modifying the tailwheel to make it fully removable if that meant you can then use a 20' container.
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Call me crazy but I think that if I was thinking about shipping my Europa (and actually my wife and I are dreaming about taking it to Europe from the US one day) I would consider modifying the tailwheel to make it fully removable if that meant you can then use a 20' container.
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Call me crazy but I think that if I was thinking about shipping my Europa (and actually my wife and I are dreaming about taking it to Europe from the US one day) I would consider modifying the tailwheel to make it fully removable if that meant you can then use a 20' container.
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Call me crazy but I think that if I was thinking about shipping my Europa (and actually my wife and I are dreaming about taking it to Europe from the US one day) I would consider modifying the tailwheel to make it fully removable if that meant you can then use a 20' container.
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Call me crazy but I think that if I was thinking about shipping my Europa (and actually my wife and I are dreaming about taking it to Europe from the US one day) I would consider modifying the tailwheel to make it fully removable if that meant you can then use a 20' container.
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clivesutton



Joined: 23 Jan 2013
Posts: 187
Location: KENILWORTH

PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 3:46 am    Post subject: Re: Container contingency Reply with quote

What an ordeal Robert - thanks for sharing such great detail though - the rail shipping loadcase insight is an especially useful tip.

I have my Mono at home in my single UK garage at the moment and as a result of this post, decided to take a few measurements to see how/if mine might fit into a 20ft container.

The image of the Mono in side view [attached] comes from the Owners manual, scaled to the right length and height for my aircraft. The envelope outlines shown are the 20ft container dimensions in red, my garage dimensions in blue and the dimensional figures from the manual in black. It is clear that removing the spinner will save some space (how much depends on your prop spinner - for a Woodcomp the saving is ~30mm), as will removing the rudder.

Interestingly, with the rudder removed, the rear of the fin is more or less vertically above the tailwheel (Singleton tailwheel), and its removal saves around 250mm on the overall length of the a/c on its wheels.

It may also be possible to get some extra length clearance in the container simply by turning the attached rudder to one side - and there is always the possibility to position the aircraft diagonally in the container of course.

My garage is about 200mm wider than a container and at a push i can stow both my tail-planes on top of each other in the cockpit space (yes the doors do close - but plenty of padding needed), and the main wings will go leading-edge downwards on some supports alongside the fuselage (no tools or bench in the garage then of course).

I also have a Mono trailer and the aircraft goes into my garage space comfortably in width and height - but i did have to extend my garage doors to accommodate the length of the aircraft on a mono trailer, to 6200mm.


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n7188u



Joined: 15 Nov 2015
Posts: 395

PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:27 am    Post subject: Re: Container contingency Reply with quote

Wow, horror story regarding shipping of aircraft. I guess the trick would be to find companies with established reputation and pay $$$ as well as informing oneself on how to do it right.

I have a friend that shipped his Maule form the US to South Africa and back and seemed to work OK. But the post is well taken and much thought has to go into this (if I ever happen to do it).

Chris


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