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wdaniell.longport(at)gmai
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 6:29 am    Post subject: of interest Reply with quote

Im sure some of you have already seen this
[img]cid:ii_jz47lbyd0[/img]
will
William Daniell

LONGPORT


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rowlandcarson(at)gmail.co
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 10:05 am    Post subject: of interest Reply with quote

On 2019-08-09, at 15:32, William Daniell <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com> wrote:

Quote:
Im sure some of you have already seen this
<image.png>
will


William - no, what is it? Where did this image come from?

in friendship

Rowland

| Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...
| <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com> http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk
| Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson


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wdaniell.longport(at)gmai
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 10:14 am    Post subject: of interest Reply with quote

Aopa magazine this month.   These are the mods for a racing lancair.   They say it goes 400 mph.

William Daniell
+1 786 878 0246
On Fri, Aug 9, 2019, 14:08 Rowland Carson <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com (rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

Quote:
--> Europa-List message posted by: Rowland Carson <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com (rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com)>

On 2019-08-09, at 15:32, William Daniell <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com (wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

> Im sure some of you have already seen this
> <image.png>
> will


William - no, what is it? Where did this image come from?

in friendship

Rowland

| Rowland Carson          ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...
| <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com (rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com)>            http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk
| Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson      Facebook: Rowland Carson

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freddythek10(at)gmail.com
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:34 pm    Post subject: of interest Reply with quote

Quote:
On Aug 9, 2019, at 7:32 AM, William Daniell <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com (wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com)> wrote:<image.png>
I suspect that Mike Arnold would take issue with the notion that increasing the width of the fuselage at the wing intersection reduces drag. You may recall that Mike took his AR-5 to 213 mph on 60 hp…I believe engine was a Rotax 582.tps://oppositelock.kinja.com/who-was-mike-arnold-and-why-any-airplane-guy-must-watc-1794494964


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n7188u



Joined: 15 Nov 2015
Posts: 86

PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:57 am    Post subject: Re: of interest Reply with quote

Freddy,

Thanks for the Arnold video. Found it really inspiring, to the point I am now reading Hoerner's book on drag reduction.

I will not go crazy with this project but I am planning on leaving my Europa light and ugly at the beginning to be able to experiment with it a little.

And no, I don't think I will have the patience to profile the wings down to .003" as Arnold did in the AR5. Impressive!!!

I have so far not modified anything important in the interest of weight reduction (except for the cockpit module lower corner longitudinal straps which required 100 pounds of epoxy to fill the gap to the fuselage shell so they were appropriately modified to make them fit better). I think that eventually I want to play a little with the cowling (just can't stand the way the doghouse looks in such a neat curvy plane), cooling drag and interference drag between the wings and fuselage (and the usual gap sealing stuff). I know some people have done a lot of work on those areas so the reading will be fun.

I really want to see what can be done weight wise. Although I have not weighted it all together, the components feel heavy. The wings in particular! I just added the aileron mass balances and OMG! (Although I think a lot of that weight will come off when I paint and adjust, still).

Anyway, thanks for the reference on the video.

Regards,
Chris


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freddythek10(at)gmail.com
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:01 am    Post subject: of interest Reply with quote

Quote:
On Aug 13, 2019, at 6:57 AM, n7188u <chmgarb(at)gmail.com (chmgarb(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
--> Europa-List message posted by: "n7188u" <chmgarb(at)gmail.com (chmgarb(at)gmail.com)>Freddy,Thanks for the Arnold video. Found it really inspiring, to the point I am now reading Hoerner's book on drag reduction.I will not go crazy with this project but I am planning on leaving my Europa light and ugly at the beginning to be able to experiment with it a little.And no, I don't think I will have the patience to profile the wings down to .003" as Arnold did in the AR5. Impressive!!!

Chris…That photo of the “racing Lancair” prompted me to revisit Mike Arnold’s work…I’d purchased his original VCR tapes years ago. Mr. Google led me to his youtube site and all of the follow-on videos…very sad to learn of his passing in 2015.

I am dazzled by your builder’s log and the pace at which you are proceeding with your build. Although one of my mantras is “to manage the degree of novelty”, I’ve found I am simply a lousy manager as notions as simple of wanting to “improve” the aesthetics of “the doghouse” have led me…some would say…astray.

Best,

Freddy


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n7188u



Joined: 15 Nov 2015
Posts: 86

PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:32 am    Post subject: Re: of interest Reply with quote

Thanks for the reply Freddy.

I am happy about progress but it is coming at a price: I am not doing much of anything besides work and then building airplane Smile My poor family has been extremely patient I have to say!. But to me getting home and working on the plane is a form of therapy so my wife understands and lets me work Smile

It may not sound like from my posting but I am also incredibly lazy when it comes to modifying. I have done very little of that in my Europa because I want to finish it quickly. But since I have two other airplanes I can fly (a LongEZ and a Kolb firestar) I am going to leave the Europa on primer and use up leftover materials to do small changes here and there (mostly aesthetics and drag related). I've been told that once you finish a project like this you crave mixing some epoxy and doing something. So making little improvements may be a fun hobby after the build is finished.

My biggest concern is weight. I want to keep it light so let's see what weight I get when I finish. If light enough I may try drag improvements but if heavy I may refrain from adding anything to it.

Chris


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grahamsingleton(at)btinte
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:44 am    Post subject: of interest Reply with quote

Chris
If it’s heavy, drag reduction will help! Gaps, holes and wing root fillets aren’t heavy. A showroom paint job will be heavy and won’r reduce drag much. I put Jim Price VGs on my Long EZ and low speed handling was fabulous. Not much loss of cruise speed either.
Most important thing on a Europa is the leading edge of the wing. Classics tend to be less accurate and some have questionable stall behaviour. (Mine bit me! )
Graham

Quote:
On 13 Aug 2019, at 16:32, n7188u <chmgarb(at)gmail.com> wrote:



Thanks for the reply Freddy.

I am happy about progress but it is coming at a price: I am not doing much of anything besides work and then building airplane Smile My poor family has been extremely patient I have to say!. But to me getting home and working on the plane is a form of therapy so my wife understands and lets me work Smile

It may not sound like from my posting but I am also incredibly lazy when it comes to modifying. I have done very little of that in my Europa because I want to finish it quickly. But since I have two other airplanes I can fly (a LongEZ and a Kolb firestar) I am going to leave the Europa on primer and use up leftover materials to do small changes here and there (mostly aesthetics and drag related). I've been told that once you finish a project like this you crave missing some epoxy and doing something. So making little improvements may be a fun hobby after the build is finished.

My biggest concern is weight. I want to keep it light so let's see what weight I get when I finish. If light enough I may try drag improvements but if heavy I may refrain from adding anything to it.

Chris




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n7188u



Joined: 15 Nov 2015
Posts: 86

PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:06 am    Post subject: Re: of interest Reply with quote

Good points Graham and will probably do the items you mention.

I am planning to paint only stabs, ailerons and maybe flaps white so I can balance before first flight and not worry afterwards if I paint the whole plane. The rest will be primer and thin coat of sealer. This was a Lancair builder center did with their planes (Evolutions) we had here at our field.

I used to fly a longEZ with VGs and it flew nice but I kept breaking them when I handled the plane or cleaned it so my current one has none (and a GU canard!). But my EZ flies great, very docile and the canard stalls at 58 knts so no complains. yes, it will pitch down in rain (or not take off in rain and heavy) but I don't fly in rain often.

Regarding the wing LE, how can you ensure it has the correct profile? Are there coordinates for this airfoil? Even with the coordinates it sounds that it would be challenging to ensure the entire span is accurate or do you check at some discrete span points and then ensure the thing is fairly smooth in between?

Regards,
Chris.


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budyerly(at)msn.com
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:35 pm    Post subject: of interest Reply with quote

Chris,
Getting the leading edge profiled correctly was a bit of a problem in the Classic foam wing. It comes down to a good long block and a root and tip template and of course a good eye. Technique on rolling the leading edge by rolling off the edge at a 45 gives a uniform leading edge. The XS is out of the mold pretty good. Though Ive seen wings built on saw horses that were a bit wonky, but trimmed out OK. Good flat tables are the best wing skin gluing jig.

Attached is my LSA vortex generator testing I did for the Europa LSA. Speaks for itself. I like these Aussie VGs. Great results after moving them around the plane was acceptable as an LSA or for STOL ops.

Weight, CG, and wing smoothness are all essential for efficient cruising, but so is cooling drag. Pay attention to sealing your cooling duct gaps. See my Cooling discussions on my website. It is nice to get the benefit of an increase in speed and cool better. Most of the drag on a light airplane is cooling drag so make sure you follow the rule. Think like an air molecule that is pretending to be a naughty teenager looking to get out of work. If there is a gap to escape work, they will rush to go through it, resulting in low productivity, and drag. See www.customflightcreations.com for some of the other building and flying articles.

Since the Europa wing is very well designed and up to 1450 pounds, has a reasonable laminar flow and nearly perfect elliptic wing lift distribution, so aerodynamic gimmicks like wing fences, winglets, and VGs. I have not found it necessary to fly with the wings in the raw or just primed and sealed. The stall of the Europa is slightly less abrupt than a typical series 6 airfoil due to excellent leading edge contour. The best stall taming is with the POH recommended stall strips as it adds great pre-stall warning feel prior to the actual break. You will find modifying the wing shape to improve flow will be an exercise yielding nothing. Ive done tuft tests, and the wing tends to have a nice span wise root to tip stall progression providing the wings are built the same and square of course. The stall of an unmodified wing begins separation at the root, the downwash over the stab decreases, the nose drops and the root begins to fly, then the nose rises and it repeats. (See stall on youtube: Europa 159HR Flight.) The POH stall strip allows a complete aft stick stall in most aircraft with the stick full back and a gentle nose down rumble and shake. Dont let the nose wader as it will rumble off opposite to the ball. Flaps down depends on the flap rigging. The rumble begins only just prior to the stall and the nose drops like any other large flapped conventional tractor aircraft. Adding VGs made for an aircraft with excellent control but it sank like a rock at 40 KTS with no low speed warning. Like Buzz Lightyear, I was, Falling With Style.

Many pilots have never flown a light aircraft with the center of mass so near the CG, so a little rudder, P factor, or a droopy flap really affects the yaw/roll in the Europa. Case in point, the nose is really pulled to the left just at the stall break even at idle power! This results in a left wing drop as one would expect. The stall strips give excellent feel approaching a clean stall power on or off.

Watch out for that old, I think I can make it better, which I found added weight, build time, and tweaking. Keep it light, maintenance accessible, and smooth, and you will be rewarded.

Get the family into the build, but dont be Captain Bligh, let them have fun and help (well for an hour or two when you need an extra set of hands). Remember, Aint nobody happy unless Momma is happy!

Best Regards,

Bud Yerly
Custom Flight Creations, Inc.

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> on behalf of n7188u <chmgarb(at)gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 12:06:26 PM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com <europa-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Re: of interest


--> Europa-List message posted by: "n7188u" <chmgarb(at)gmail.com>

Good points Graham and will probably do the items you mention.

I am planning to paint only stabs, ailerons and maybe flaps white so I can balance before first flight and not worry afterwards if I paint the whole plane. The rest will be primer and thin coat of sealer. This was a Lancair builder center did with their planes (Evolutions) we had here at our field.

I used to fly a longEZ with VGs and it flew nice but I kept breaking them when I handled the plane or cleaned it so my current one has none (and a GU canard!). But my EZ flies great, very docile and the canard stalls at 58 knts so no complains. yes, it will pitch down in rain (or not take off in rain and heavy) but I don't fly in rain often.

Regarding the wing LE, how can you ensure it has the correct profile? Are there coordinates for this airfoil? Even with the coordinates it sounds that it would be challenging to ensure the entire span is accurate or do you check at some discrete span points and then ensure the thing is fairly smooth in between?

Regards,
Chris.




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peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:45 pm    Post subject: of interest Reply with quote

Great write-up Bud...... how does the XS do in heavier rain?

On Aug 14, 2019, at 8:32 PM, Bud Yerly <budyerly(at)msn.com (budyerly(at)msn.com)> wrote:
Quote:

Chris,
Getting the leading edge profiled correctly was a bit of a problem in the Classic foam wing. It comes down to a good long block and a root and tip template and of course a good eye. Technique on rolling the leading edge by rolling off the edge at a 45 gives a uniform leading edge. The XS is out of the mold pretty good. Though I’ve seen wings built on saw horses that were a bit wonky, but trimmed out OK. Good flat tables are the best wing skin gluing jig.

Attached is my LSA vortex generator testing I did for the Europa LSA. Speaks for itself. I like these Aussie VGs. Great results after moving them around the plane was acceptable as an LSA or for STOL ops.

Weight, CG, and wing smoothness are all essential for efficient cruising, but so is cooling drag. Pay attention to sealing your cooling duct gaps. See my Cooling discussions on my website. It is nice to get the benefit of an increase in speed and cool better. Most of the drag on a light airplane is cooling drag so make sure you follow the rule. Think like an air molecule that is pretending to be a naughty teenager looking to get out of work. If there is a gap to escape work, they will rush to go through it, resulting in low productivity, and drag. See www.customflightcreations.com for some of the other building and flying articles.

Since the Europa wing is very well designed and up to 1450 pounds, has a reasonable laminar flow and nearly perfect elliptic wing lift distribution, so aerodynamic gimmicks like wing fences, winglets, and VGs. I have not found it necessary to fly with the wings in the raw or just primed and sealed. The stall of the Europa is slightly less abrupt than a typical series 6 airfoil due to excellent leading edge contour. The best stall taming is with the POH recommended stall strips as it adds great pre-stall warning feel prior to the actual break. You will find modifying the wing shape to improve flow will be an exercise yielding nothing. I’ve done tuft tests, and the wing tends to have a nice span wise root to tip stall progression providing the wings are built the same and square of course. The stall of an unmodified wing begins separation at the root, the downwash over the stab decreases, the nose drops and the root begins to fly, then the nose rises and it repeats. (See stall on youtube: Europa 159HR Flight.) The POH stall strip allows a complete aft stick stall in most aircraft with the stick full back and a gentle nose down rumble and shake. Don’t let the nose wader as it will rumble off opposite to the ball. Flaps down depends on the flap rigging. The rumble begins only just prior to the stall and the nose drops like any other large flapped conventional tractor aircraft. Adding VGs made for an aircraft with excellent control but it sank like a rock at 40 KTS with no low speed warning. Like Buzz Lightyear, I was, “Falling With Style”.

Many pilots have never flown a light aircraft with the center of mass so near the CG, so a little rudder, P factor, or a droopy flap really affects the yaw/roll in the Europa. Case in point, the nose is really pulled to the left just at the stall break even at idle power! This results in a left wing drop as one would expect. The stall strips give excellent feel approaching a clean stall power on or off.

Watch out for that old, I think I can make it better, which I found added weight, build time, and tweaking. Keep it light, maintenance accessible, and smooth, and you will be rewarded.

Get the family into the build, but don’t be Captain Bligh, let them have fun and help (well for an hour or two when you need an extra set of hands). Remember, “Ain’t nobody happy unless Momma is happy”!

Best Regards,

Bud Yerly
Custom Flight Creations, Inc.

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com) <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com)> on behalf of n7188u <chmgarb(at)gmail.com (chmgarb(at)gmail.com)>
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 12:06:26 PM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com) <europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)>
Subject: Re: of interest


--> Europa-List message posted by: "n7188u" <chmgarb(at)gmail.com (chmgarb(at)gmail.com)>

Good points Graham and will probably do the items you mention.

I am planning to paint only stabs, ailerons and maybe flaps white so I can balance before first flight and not worry afterwards if I paint the whole plane. The rest will be primer and thin coat of sealer. This was a Lancair builder center did with their planes (Evolutions) we had here at our field.

I used to fly a longEZ with VGs and it flew nice but I kept breaking them when I handled the plane or cleaned it so my current one has none (and a GU canard!). But my EZ flies great, very docile and the canard stalls at 58 knts so no complains. yes, it will pitch down in rain (or not take off in rain and heavy) but I don't fly in rain often.

Regarding the wing LE, how can you ensure it has the correct profile? Are there coordinates for this airfoil? Even with the coordinates it sounds that it would be challenging to ensure the entire span is accurate or do you check at some discrete span points and then ensure the thing is fairly smooth in between?

Regards,
Chris.




Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=490843#490843






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<LSA Europa Flight Test Final.pdf>
<Vortex Generators for STOL-LSA Mod Version 1.pdf>


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grahamsingleton(at)btinte
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:47 am    Post subject: of interest Reply with quote

Chris
Somewhere accurate co-ordinates are on the web. It's 25 years since I had much to do with it and several computer failures too.
Kingsley Hurst might have them? You could ask Andy Draper but he left Europa many years ago.
Put the message out on the Club forum, someone should know but it's all from at least 15 years ago. Seems like 6 months to me but time leaves me behind these days!
Graham

Quote:
On 13 Aug 2019, at 17:06, n7188u <chmgarb(at)gmail.com> wrote:



Good points Graham and will probably do the items you mention.

I am planning to paint only stabs, ailerons and maybe flaps white so I can balance before first flight and not worry afterwards if I paint the whole plane. The rest will be primer and thin coat of sealer. This was a Lancair builder center did with their planes (Evolutions) we had here at our field.

I used to fly a longEZ with VGs and it flew nice but I kept breaking them when I handled the plane or cleaned it so my current one has none (and a GU canard!). But my EZ flies great, very docile and the canard stalls at 58 knts so no complains. yes, it will pitch down in rain (or not take off in rain and heavy) but I don't fly in rain often.

Regarding the wing LE, how can you ensure it has the correct profile? Are there coordinates for this airfoil? Even with the coordinates it sounds that it would be challenging to ensure the entire span is accurate or do you check at some discrete span points and then ensure the thing is fairly smooth in between?

Regards,
Chris.




Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=490843#490843











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budyerly(at)msn.com
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:31 am    Post subject: of interest Reply with quote

Pete,
No noticeable difference other than you can look out and see the dirt flowing with the water making a nice visual display of the laminar to turbulent transition layer. The plane does slow down but in heavier rain, comes heavier turbulence so I normally slow down as we get vertical development in our rain showers.

The problem with the XS is it is excessively heavy because it is extremely easy to add more stuff.

Best Regards,
Bud Yerly

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> on behalf of Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2019 9:44:17 PM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com <europa-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Re: Re: of interest


Great write-up Bud...... how does the XS do in heavier rain?

On Aug 14, 2019, at 8:32 PM, Bud Yerly <budyerly(at)msn.com (budyerly(at)msn.com)> wrote:


Quote:

Chris,
Getting the leading edge profiled correctly was a bit of a problem in the Classic foam wing. It comes down to a good long block and a root and tip template and of course a good eye. Technique on rolling the leading edge by rolling off the edge at a 45 gives a uniform leading edge. The XS is out of the mold pretty good. Though Ive seen wings built on saw horses that were a bit wonky, but trimmed out OK. Good flat tables are the best wing skin gluing jig.

Attached is my LSA vortex generator testing I did for the Europa LSA. Speaks for itself. I like these Aussie VGs. Great results after moving them around the plane was acceptable as an LSA or for STOL ops.

Weight, CG, and wing smoothness are all essential for efficient cruising, but so is cooling drag. Pay attention to sealing your cooling duct gaps. See my Cooling discussions on my website. It is nice to get the benefit of an increase in speed and cool better. Most of the drag on a light airplane is cooling drag so make sure you follow the rule. Think like an air molecule that is pretending to be a naughty teenager looking to get out of work. If there is a gap to escape work, they will rush to go through it, resulting in low productivity, and drag. See www.customflightcreations.com for some of the other building and flying articles.

Since the Europa wing is very well designed and up to 1450 pounds, has a reasonable laminar flow and nearly perfect elliptic wing lift distribution, so aerodynamic gimmicks like wing fences, winglets, and VGs. I have not found it necessary to fly with the wings in the raw or just primed and sealed. The stall of the Europa is slightly less abrupt than a typical series 6 airfoil due to excellent leading edge contour. The best stall taming is with the POH recommended stall strips as it adds great pre-stall warning feel prior to the actual break. You will find modifying the wing shape to improve flow will be an exercise yielding nothing. Ive done tuft tests, and the wing tends to have a nice span wise root to tip stall progression providing the wings are built the same and square of course. The stall of an unmodified wing begins separation at the root, the downwash over the stab decreases, the nose drops and the root begins to fly, then the nose rises and it repeats. (See stall on youtube: Europa 159HR Flight.) The POH stall strip allows a complete aft stick stall in most aircraft with the stick full back and a gentle nose down rumble and shake. Dont let the nose wader as it will rumble off opposite to the ball. Flaps down depends on the flap rigging. The rumble begins only just prior to the stall and the nose drops like any other large flapped conventional tractor aircraft. Adding VGs made for an aircraft with excellent control but it sank like a rock at 40 KTS with no low speed warning. Like Buzz Lightyear, I was, Falling With Style.

Many pilots have never flown a light aircraft with the center of mass so near the CG, so a little rudder, P factor, or a droopy flap really affects the yaw/roll in the Europa. Case in point, the nose is really pulled to the left just at the stall break even at idle power! This results in a left wing drop as one would expect. The stall strips give excellent feel approaching a clean stall power on or off.

Watch out for that old, I think I can make it better, which I found added weight, build time, and tweaking. Keep it light, maintenance accessible, and smooth, and you will be rewarded.

Get the family into the build, but dont be Captain Bligh, let them have fun and help (well for an hour or two when you need an extra set of hands). Remember, Aint nobody happy unless Momma is happy!

Best Regards,

Bud Yerly
Custom Flight Creations, Inc.

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com) <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com)> on behalf of n7188u <chmgarb(at)gmail.com (chmgarb(at)gmail.com)>
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 12:06:26 PM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com) <europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)>
Subject: Re: of interest


--> Europa-List message posted by: "n7188u" <chmgarb(at)gmail.com (chmgarb(at)gmail.com)>

Good points Graham and will probably do the items you mention.

I am planning to paint only stabs, ailerons and maybe flaps white so I can balance before first flight and not worry afterwards if I paint the whole plane. The rest will be primer and thin coat of sealer. This was a Lancair builder center did with their planes (Evolutions) we had here at our field.

I used to fly a longEZ with VGs and it flew nice but I kept breaking them when I handled the plane or cleaned it so my current one has none (and a GU canard!). But my EZ flies great, very docile and the canard stalls at 58 knts so no complains. yes, it will pitch down in rain (or not take off in rain and heavy) but I don't fly in rain often.

Regarding the wing LE, how can you ensure it has the correct profile? Are there coordinates for this airfoil? Even with the coordinates it sounds that it would be challenging to ensure the entire span is accurate or do you check at some discrete span points and then ensure the thing is fairly smooth in between?

Regards,
Chris.




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<LSA Europa Flight Test Final.pdf>
<Vortex Generators for STOL-LSA Mod Version 1.pdf>


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n7188u



Joined: 15 Nov 2015
Posts: 86

PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:54 am    Post subject: Re: of interest Reply with quote

Thanks for the detailed write up Bud. And thanks graham for the info on the coordinates.

Bud, I have a feeling that once I start flying I will be too lazy to start playing with changing anything in the plane. It always happens. I still intend to fly on primer just because I won't have the money initially to have a nice paint job done (although I am very good at painting myself and have good equipment). I am not sure I want to go through the exercise of making a spray booth at home again. I will see what happens when I get to that point.

Profiling the wing is not something I am crazy about. Just got a little carried away by the inspiring videos for the AR5 and AR6. Neat stuff. I hate sanding in general and per your info it seems the airfoil is not that sensitive to variation (or it's molded pretty good as you mention). A nice true stall will be a must for me although I had my share of nasty stalling airplanes in my life.

I do want to work on the cooling part (I have your paper plus a bunch of good info from others in the forum). I thought about toying with the root fairing after I get the plane flying. The existing fairing does look a bit simplistic but it begs to ask whether the Europa really benefits from interference drag reduction.

No, I don't want to work more than needed to get the plane in the air but it would be neat to have small projects to work on after it's done. With my current work and family situation I am not really using the airplanes for traveling so being down a little here and there doesn't hurt me (and the fact I have another cruising plane at my disposal).

But I will fly the heck out of it for the first year without doing anything to it for sure Smile

Best,
Chris


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n7188u



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Posts: 86

PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:28 pm    Post subject: Re: of interest Reply with quote

Bud,

You can tell I am bored Smile I read the papers you posted and find the information fascinating. I always wondered if my Europa could be registered as an LSA (not that I need to do that now but I am not getting any younger). it seems from your write up that it should be possible to do. I still need to read the whole paper in detail (at work now).

Can a plane that has been already registered as an experimental be changed over to LSA? You mention in your paper that you can go for LSA at the beginning but what if you tell the FAA that you are substantially modifying the airplane and want to obtain a new Airworthiness Certificate?

Chris


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:17 pm    Post subject: of interest Reply with quote

Chris,
Once a project is finished it is very difficult to go back and make changes. Painting prep is prep. To get a good primer finish, you have to sand/fill/prime anyway. That is 95% of the job. Putting a final coat on is just like one more coat of primer but it is shiny. I have an EAA member that closed his paint shop on his farm but he still has a paint booth. Look around your area. Ive found paint shops are happy to put on a final coat. They dont want to do the prep either.

Small add ons are not difficult after final paint. Flap covers can be glued on, you can make stall strips and just tack them on with sealant and they look very neat and can be removed for maintenance. I use Imron paint, and sealant like cheap Kwik caulk or GE silicone, will stick well, but are easily cleaned off. There are plenty of small things done without destroying the new paint. Good paint is easily touched up in a day. Base clearcoat tend to suck as clearcoat is a bit soft and is damaged easily.

Nobody is lazier than I am. I stare at stuff often and take excessive coffee breaks staring at my airplane. Tough to jump on it and just get it done, but once you get motivated, you jump on it. I just added a spring rudder trim and took it out, and am modifying it again. It is experimental. I swapped props, spinners, wheel pant fairings, wing fairings and the like. I made the panel easy to remove, with G10 FRP plates for easy changes and repair. Looks nice too. Its a plastic airplane, put your antennas where you want and add and subtract equipment as you see fit. Putting the ELT in a really solid spot in the aft fuselage where you cant get to it is not smart. Make everything accessible, inspectable and maintainable so there is not damage. Same with the engine compartment. It looks neat when you hide the 912 fuel manifold down in the area behind the engine until you have to get to it again to clean out the FS O2. If you use MOGAS, you should pump it out and replace with AVGAS for storage as the MOGAS can get nasty, so make the fuel line break easy to get to easily so you can just turn on the AUX PUMP and giterdone.

On to LSA. An Experimental Amateur Built (EAB) airplane that meets LSA criteria can be flown by a pilot exercising his right to fly under the LSA rules. Today we have the pilots bill of rights and one can fly under what is called Basic Med. So LSA is dead as far as Im concerned. Get a basic med exam (one should get a physical one or twice a year anyway), take a test every couple years and you are good to go. If you arent healthy enough to pass a basic med exam, you probably shouldnt be flying LSA either.

Back to LSA aircraft. The Kitfox and Europa can meet LSA provided during phase one the plane was documented properly and the ID plate does not exceed 1320 pounds on the placard Wt., the Phase one sheet indicates the aircraft is controllable clean at 45 Knots, and does not exceed 120 KIAS at Sea Level at max continuous it is an LSA. Of course the aircraft has to be fixed gear, fixed prop.

NOTE: Your Phase One sheet and the log book must document the LSA min and max airspeed limits are met, so it can be flown by a pilot exercising his right to fly LSA. If the builder adds a constant speed prop, cleans off the VGs and logs it in the aircraft logs, then the aircraft technically cannot return to LSA status EVER. However, I have had guys tell the FAA that they didnt know that, and the FSDO authorized a change of the aircraft back to LSA with another FAA DAR rechecking the aircraft (for a fee) and another Phase one fly off to clear up his logbooks.

Of course I would never do anything like that!

Referencing those flexible fliers called factory built LSA aircraft:
There are pilots with a Class III medical that had their ELSA aircraft modified to full Experimental Exhibition Class and with a Program Letter to the FSDO, he flies anywhere he wants. In Exhibition Class you have to call the FSDO for every flight, no FSDO wants that, so you do a program letter indicating where you fly (like the CONUS). Remember, an ELSA is an SLSA and must not deviate from the SLSA factory requirements. You can change paint color, but you cannot modify it outside of the SLSA equipment list without express permission of the manufacturer. What a stupid rule, but the ELSA is strictly a some assembly required airplane, not a 51% EAB therefore it is not a REAL Experimental. Also the pilots of the LSA aircraft were assumed to be 20 hour wonders or old guys that couldnt pass a medical to qualify for Basic Med.

Best Regards,
Bud Yerly





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From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> on behalf of n7188u <chmgarb(at)gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2019 5:28:54 PM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com <europa-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Re: of interest


--> Europa-List message posted by: "n7188u" <chmgarb(at)gmail.com>

Bud,

You can tell I am bored Smile I read the papers you posted and find the information fascinating. I always wondered if my Europa could be registered as an LSA (not that I need to do that now but I am not getting any younger). it seems from your write up that it should be possible to do. I still need to read the whole in detail (at work now).

Can a plane that has been already registered as an experimental be changed over to LSA? You mention in your paper that you can go for LSA at the beginning but what if you tell the airplane you are substantially modifying the airplane and want to obtain a new Airworthiness Certificate?

Chris




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n7188u



Joined: 15 Nov 2015
Posts: 86

PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 6:32 am    Post subject: Re: of interest Reply with quote

Thanks Bud. Nice write-up and good points regarding finishing.

Regarding paint your point is correct. With the Kolb I did what you suggest. I did all the prepping up to primer at home (gave me all the time in the world to correct problems, fine sand everything, etc) and then I took it to a friends shop with a spray booth and applied the final coat (single stage PPG Durathane).

Ended up with a show finish and it still looks like new today after 20 years.

Good points on LSA. Right now no medical issues and since I was flying for an airline until not too long ago I had a first class. In my last medical renewal I opted to go down to third to keep it simple since I don't fly commercial anymore (was starving and had to go back to Engineering Smile ) It's good to know what options are available as you get older.

Anyway, thanks. at my end I started to play with the engine install so pretty exciting stuff (and a bit more fun that just fiberglass work). Reading your write-ups regarding water pump modification, ring mount install, etc).

Best,
Chris


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