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XS mono max gross weight

 
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freddythek10(at)gmail.com
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:10 pm    Post subject: XS mono max gross weight Reply with quote

Gents,

My XS mono owners manual lists the max gross weight at 1370 lbs. yet my understanding is that most Europas in the US are tagged at 1450 lbs., and I know of one which was approved at 1600 lbs. (believe it or not).

So my question is, how is a higher figure justified if the FAA asks about it?

Fred A194


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Joined: 07 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:40 am    Post subject: Re: XS mono max gross weight Reply with quote

Fred,

There is a memo written by Andy Draper that outlines the reduction in CG envelope required when using 1450 as max gross weight. I can send you a copy if needed.

In addition, we tested at incrementally higher weights and range of CGs as part of our 40 hour test.

Jim & Heather


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peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:02 am    Post subject: XS mono max gross weight Reply with quote

Hi Jim,
Please share,
Thx!
Pete

On Tue, Jul 16, 2019 at 6:48 AM h&amp;jeuropa <butcher43(at)att.net (butcher43(at)att.net)> wrote:

Quote:
--> Europa-List message posted by: "h&amp;jeuropa" <butcher43(at)att.net (butcher43(at)att.net)>

Fred,

There is a memo written by Andy Draper that outlines the reduction in CG envelope required when using 1450 as max gross weight.   I can send you a copy if needed.

In addition, we tested at incrementally higher weights and range of CGs as part of our 40 hour test.

Jim & Heather




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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=490316#490316






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raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:15 am    Post subject: XS mono max gross weight Reply with quote

Fred,
I have MTOW 1450 lbs /658 kg.
I got a nice letter from Mr. Andy Draper say 15-years ago, and that helped.
It was also possible to make a 2+2 Europa  (max 60 kg for back seats, suitable for two children or just one model type woman, if she is pretty enough).
My Europas naked weight is 919 lbs /417 kg (today obviously a bit more).

I know around 1550 lbs /703 kg is not a problem for OH-XRT during take-off - better to land with almost empty tank then.
allekirjoitus - Raimo





Fred Klein kirjoitti 16.7.2019 klo 0:09:

Quote:
Quote:
--> Europa-List message posted by: Fred Klein <freddythek10(at)gmail.com> (freddythek10(at)gmail.com)

Gents,

My XS mono owners manual lists the max gross weight at 1370 lbs. yet my understanding is that most Europas in the US are tagged at 1450 lbs., and I know of one which was approved at 1600 lbs. (believe it or not).

So my question is, how is a higher figure justified if the FAA asks about it?

Fred A194




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wdaniell.longport(at)gmai
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:48 am    Post subject: XS mono max gross weight Reply with quote

I flew medellin panama taking off at over 1500.....skrg is at about 6000 and hot.   I didnt notice any difference in performance. 
William Daniell
LONGPORT
+57 310 295 0744

On Tue, Jul 16, 2019, 07:18 Raimo Toivio <raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi (raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi)> wrote:

Quote:

Fred,
I have MTOW 1450 lbs /658 kg.
I got a nice letter from Mr. Andy Draper say 15-years ago, and that helped.
It was also possible to make a 2+2 Europa  (max 60 kg for back seats, suitable for two children or just one model type woman, if she is pretty enough).
My Europas naked weight is 919 lbs /417 kg (today obviously a bit more).

I know around 1550 lbs /703 kg is not a problem for OH-XRT during take-off - better to land with almost empty tank then.
- Raimo





Fred Klein kirjoitti 16.7.2019 klo 0:09:

Quote:
Quote:
--> Europa-List message posted by: Fred Klein <freddythek10(at)gmail.com> (freddythek10(at)gmail.com)

Gents,

My XS mono owners manual lists the max gross weight at 1370 lbs. yet my understanding is that most Europas in the US are tagged at 1450 lbs., and I know of one which was approved at 1600 lbs. (believe it or not).

So my question is, how is a higher figure justified if the FAA asks about it?

Fred A194





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freddythek10(at)gmail.com
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 6:02 am    Post subject: XS mono max gross weight Reply with quote

Jim,

Thanks...A copy of Andy’s letter would be very much appreciated .
Fred

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 16, 2019, at 3:54 AM, Peter Zutrauen <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com (peterz(at)zutrasoft.com)> wrote:
Quote:
Hi Jim,
Please share,
Thx!
Pete

On Tue, Jul 16, 2019 at 6:48 AM h&amp;jeuropa <butcher43(at)att.net (butcher43(at)att.net)> wrote:

Quote:
--> Europa-List message posted by: "h&amp;jeuropa" <butcher43(at)att.net (butcher43(at)att.net)>

Fred,

There is a memo written by Andy Draper that outlines the reduction in CG envelope required when using 1450 as max gross weight. I can send you a copy if needed.

In addition, we tested at incrementally higher weights and range of CGs as part of our 40 hour test.

Jim & Heather




Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=490316#490316






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errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
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rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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budyerly(at)msn.com
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 6:27 am    Post subject: XS mono max gross weight Reply with quote

Raimo,
The trigear has the same characteristics. Weight is not the main problem. The trigear soft steel attachments will wear as the gear twisting will cause the bolt hole at the gear top to wear. The gear leg supports will get elongated and the bolt holes elongated and the gear gets quite loose feeling when the plane is jacked.

As far as performance, I found the CG does tighten a bit as you approach 1600 pounds. I was surprised that the aft CG was not really that bad, but a forward CG made landing flare out less than enjoyable forward of 59 inches. Sink rates approaching in the flare at 60 require attention and more care in the round out. Any power off and the sink rate is noticeable. A 912 or 912S with fixed pitch prop makes go arounds at over gross conditions a bit dicey with the flaps and gear full down. With the trigear, half flaps is quite comfortable to land with, and 10 degrees on takeoff eliminates that old sinking feeling on takeoff.

My paper attached basically explained to my customers who hadnt actually flight tested with me, some of my concerns and considerations.

I must admit, that I have taken off at a full 1600 lbs in 12AY. Im not proud of that, but when you have to move a 350 pound football player, the plane can do it. It was the first time Ive ever rotated my Europa to takeoff attitude and it just sat on the runway and waited a bit. The 914 pulled me off and we were well on our way. Anita and I did a trip at 1500 or so pounds. The trigear without pilot and passenger after fueling will sit on its tail. With pilot and pax and full fuel, the CG was right at 62.5 and the pitch force per G and stall characteristics were acceptable.

A 1450 pound Europa with the CG from 59 to 62 is just fine. With full flaps in the mono, this CG range is more than conservative. In a mono, that 16 PSI tire may need to be pumped up a bit as it is really going to flex during landing and taxi. You may spin the tire on the wheel and tear the tube in this condition. Im not worried about the gear mechanism strength that much. The rubber block needs to be looked at though. Anything above 1450 and it starts looking kind of flat. Cracks will soon form and then you need a new rubber block.

Anyway, my two cents are in the paper on Wt. and balance, CG range, and loading.

Best Regards,
Bud Yerly

Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10

________________________________
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> on behalf of Raimo Toivio <raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi>
Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2019 6:44:15 AM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: XS mono max gross weight
Fred,

I have MTOW 1450 lbs /658 kg.

I got a nice letter from Mr. Andy Draper say 15-years ago, and that helped.

It was also possible to make a 2+2 Europa (max 60 kg for back seats, suitable for two children or just one model type woman, if she is pretty enough)


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raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:32 am    Post subject: XS mono max gross weight Reply with quote

Bud,
I will comment between the lines:
allekirjoitus

Bud Yerly kirjoitti 16.7.2019 klo 17:26:

Quote:

Raimo,
The trigear has the same characteristics. Weight is not the main problem. The trigear soft steel attachments will wear as the gear twisting will cause the bolt hole at the gear top to wear. The gear leg supports will get elongated and the bolt holes elongated and the gear gets quite loose feeling when the plane is jacked.
Thats obviously.
Quote:


As far as performance, I found the CG does tighten a bit as you approach 1600 pounds. I was surprised that the aft CG was not really that bad, but a forward CG made landing flare out less than enjoyable forward of 59 inches. Sink rates approaching in the flare at 60 require attention and more care in the round out. Any power off and the sink rate is noticeable. A 912 or 912S with fixed pitch prop makes go arounds at over gross conditions a bit dicey with the flaps and gear full down. With the trigear, half flaps is quite comfortable to land with, and 10 degrees on takeoff eliminates that old sinking feeling on takeoff.
Exactly. Thats why I moved to the CS-prop. I have Airmaster & 912S and Im 100% pleased.
Quote:


My paper attached basically explained to my customers who hadnt actually flight tested with me, some of my concerns and considerations.

I must admit, that I have taken off at a full 1600 lbs in 12AY. Im not proud of that, but when you have to move a 350 pound football player, the plane can do it. It was the first time Ive ever rotated my Europa to takeoff attitude and it just sat on the runway and waited a bit. The 914 pulled me off and we were well on our way. Anita and I did a trip at 1500 or so pounds. The trigear without pilot and passenger after fueling will sit on its tail. With pilot and pax and full fuel, the CG was right at 62.5 and the pitch force per G and stall characteristics were acceptable.
Oh, I could ever imagine to take a passenger 350 pound /almost 160 kg! How in the hell there was room enough for him? Once I flew to Denmark Endealave island (say 4 hours) with a passenger 77 inches tall (196 cm) and that was a nightmare, when coming back. He was quite skinny, weight around 240 lbs /110 kg.
Quote:


A 1450 pound Europa with the CG from 59 to 62 is just fine. With full flaps in the mono, this CG range is more than conservative. In a mono, that 16 PSI tire may need to be pumped up a bit as it is really going to flex during landing and taxi. You may spin the tire on the wheel and tear the tube in this condition. Im not worried about the gear mechanism strength that much. The rubber block needs to be looked at though. Anything above 1450 and it starts looking kind of flat. Cracks will soon form and then you need a new rubber block.

Confirm! I have since my regular tire problems used always high pressure & nitrogen & tyre puncture liquid inside always.
(I will never forget when landing with an empty monowheel, landing was super-short and taking the plane off the runway quickly was...extremely difficult without destroying it)
Quote:


Anyway, my two cents are in the paper on Wt. and balance, CG range, and loading.

Your two cents are worth of two Dollars /Euros at least!
- Raimo
Quote:


Best Regards,
Bud Yerly

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com) <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com) on behalf of Raimo Toivio <raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi> (raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi)
Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2019 6:44:15 AM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: XS mono max gross weight


Fred,
I have MTOW 1450 lbs /658 kg.
I got a nice letter from Mr. Andy Draper say 15-years ago, and that helped.
It was also possible to make a 2+2 Europa (max 60 kg for back seats, suitable for two children or just one model type woman, if she is pretty enough).
My Europas naked weight is 919 lbs /417 kg (today obviously a bit more).

I know around 1550 lbs /703 kg is not a problem for OH-XRT during take-off - better to land with almost empty tank then.
allekirjoitus - Raimo





Fred Klein kirjoitti 16.7.2019 klo 0:09:

Quote:
Quote:
--> Europa-List message posted by: Fred Klein <freddythek10(at)gmail.com> (freddythek10(at)gmail.com)

Gents,

My XS mono owners manual lists the max gross weight at 1370 lbs. yet my understanding is that most Europas in the US are tagged at 1450 lbs., and I know of one which was approved at 1600 lbs. (believe it or not).

So my question is, how is a higher figure justified if the FAA asks about it?

Fred A194





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h&jeuropa



Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 428

PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:48 am    Post subject: Re: XS mono max gross weight Reply with quote

Attached is memo from Andy Draper concerning increased max gross weight.

Jim


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:52 pm    Post subject: XS mono max gross weight Reply with quote

Thank you Sir !!

Sent from my iPhone

Quote:
On Jul 16, 2019, at 12:48 PM, h&amp;jeuropa <butcher43(at)att.net> wrote:



Attached is memo from Andy Draper concerning increased max gross weight.

Jim




Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=490339#490339




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http://forums.matronics.com//files/mtoww_384.pdf








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budyerly(at)msn.com
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:22 pm    Post subject: XS mono max gross weight Reply with quote

Jim, Ramio and Fred,
Attached is a VN diagram and the effects of the 1450 increase I did for Europa some 13 years ago. I never put this in my previous post as it goes over the head of many pilots. My numbers are slightly different than the Draper/Dykins numbers and I believe they are being very conservative. Andy was gone by 2006 and no one at Europa was willing to pay for the flight testing so it just got dropped.

Anyway, I think a CG Limit of 59 and 62 are fine for most of us. If you have a mono with a heavy nose and you added a tail weight to counter balance it, and had long wings, then I expect that Don Dykins concern for keeping the CG forward a bit more may be prudent. A short wing Europa Mono or Trigear for that matter and a pilot with good feet, Im not concerned about much other than the increase in sink rate and stopping the rate of sink prior to ground effect.

Great discussion but without flight testing and confirmation its worthless. I flight tested my aircraft, and it is fine in all phases at 1450.

I still dont recommend anything over 1450. Up to 1450 the change in performance and handling are negligible in my opinion. For the mono pilots, it is like going from a Classic to an XS mono wheel. That extra 50 pounds of the XS and gear in some cases made for me to have to pay more attention during the round out and flare. For those with a heavy plane and glider wings, for Gods sake do the Mod 78 and keep it light. Fly the plane within the CG limits discussed above and you should be just fine. However, go and flight test and make sure. Start 5 mistakes high to give your self more time if you upset the aircraft or get into an unusual attitude, or let someone who is experienced do the flight tests. I have never found a poor handling problem in either the short or long wing at 1450 or slightly over that in the CG range discussed, but then again, we flight tested.

Best Regards,
Bud Yerly

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> on behalf of h&amp;jeuropa <butcher43(at)att.net>
Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2019 3:48:09 PM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: XS mono max gross weight


--> Europa-List message posted by: "h&amp;jeuropa" <butcher43(at)att.net>

Attached is memo from Andy Draper concerning increased max gross weight.

Jim




Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=490339#490339




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http://forums.matronics.com//files/mtoww_384.pdf



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