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MJKTuck(at)cs.com
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 Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 6:14 pm Post subject: Rotax 912ULS |
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I think I may have traced my intermittent starting problem of my old
912UL to the ignition boxes, so I'm weighing up my options.
Two new ignition boxes are around $1,000 each (!) so I'm not sure I want
to sink that kind of money into a 20 year old engine even though it only
has 300 hours on it.
I like the look of the 912ULS, it has a bit more power, a heavy duty
starter and a slow start module that seems to have resolved the ragged
starting issues of the early engines.
If you have a 912ULS I'd be interested to hear what you think of the
engine and how long you have had it. Also, will it fit in the same
engine ring mount as the 912UL - I'm thinking particularly of the size
of the starter.
Many thanks,
Martin Tuck
N152MT
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SPURPURA
Joined: 04 Apr 2015
Posts: 73
Location: KAPV
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| Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:08 pm Post subject: Re: Rotax 912ULS |
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Thinking of changing the ignition modules? Remember you will need to change the flywheel too. The ULS seems to run cooler and requires less maintenance than the 914, but the high altitude performance is great.
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_________________
N951EU - Tri-gear & 912ULS, N77EU- Mono & 914
I'D RATHER HAVE A BOTTLE IN FRONT OF ME THAN A FRONTAL LABOTAMY. |
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budyerly(at)msn.com
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| Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2019 9:47 am Post subject: Rotax 912ULS |
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Martin,
I know the XS uses a Rotax ring mount and changing engines from the UL to the ULS or 914 basically fits on any XS existing Fire Wall Forward (FWF), but the exhaust bends may be close to the cowl front and the ULS new fuel pump gets pretty close to the cowl also. So some fiddling required.
The Classic is somewhat different because of the shorter nose and exhaust systems changed slightly between the UL and ULS. The 914 on the Classic during an engine upgrade was a pain. Frankly, I just installed a whole new XS FWF on my Classic and it was worth every penny. The high torque starter Rotax provides is a bit long for the Classic. Consider the aftermarket Sky-Tec starter as it appears to fit and is roughly half the cost and the same size as the original Rotax low torque starter.
I didn’t recommend any 912ULS at Custom Flight until after 2006. Hard starting, poor starters needing 12.5 volts to start, kick back on start, sprag clutch issues, case cracking, horrible shutdown and start up shaking, etc. just sowered me to recommending the engine. After 2006, Rotax finally made adjustments that addressed these issues. Although they never admitted to what they had to do it was obvious when the new engines came out. Field reports indicate the 912ULS (post 2006) are as reliable as the 80HP UL.
The 912ULS new case is stronger, the ignition timing and boxes are optimized for smooth starts and running, it is equipped with a high torque starter standard, and many other little touches that have completely changed my outlook on the 912ULS. The purchase price is very near that of a rebuild 912UL that is 1000 plus hours old. I can do carbs, so the 912ULS is actually more appealing to me than a 912iS fuel injected engine as its fuel economy does not completely trump the maintenance complexity and cost over the short term.
Don’t get me wrong. The iS engine starts and runs smooth, is very economical, and very complex. Your ability to maintain the fuel/electronics has been removed from the average owner/operator. Problems currently are with the automatic electronic fuse box switching controls failing, overheating on the ground due to its running in lean at all times, a much larger, or fan augmented, radiator is a must for summer time operations, a larger or multiple oil coolers are needed to keep the oil in limits, troubleshooting guides are still in flux so give your dealer a break if he can’t give you a quick turn around. I have worked with a number of Pipistrel owners with the iS and Lockwood and Pipistrel have taken ownership of fixing the issues under warranty, but slowly and in my opinion, incompletely. Pipistrel has had to add fans to the radiator (as has Lockwood on the AirCam), larger oil coolers, and Pipistrel had to make cowl modifications which were better, but not enough.
Although the 912ULS burns more gas, it doesn’t overheat on the ground, is easier to troubleshoot, annual maintenance doesn’t require a trip to the Rotax dealer, and is quite a bit cheaper to buy. One can install a carb leaning work around (HACman) if high altitude fuel economy is needed. The HACman works by lowering the float bowl pressure via a needle valve controlling vacuum from the intake manifold to the float bowl tube. The lower pressure in the float bowl reduces the flow slightly through the main jet. (A bit Rube Goldberg, but it is effective if you fly above 3500 MSL. It takes some fiddling with part throttle setting and even finely adjusted needle settings to fine tune your mixture to get the EGT in the proper range. WOT makes it less effective as the manifold and carb throat pressure are nearly equal.)
Do not be sucked in to the “big bore, higher power or other aftermarket cylinder and cam mods” as the mean time between failure is just not documented. Keep the engine reasonably stock. One exception is what I call the “Columbian Turbo mod for the 912UL. This is a reasonable turbo normalizing of a stock UL 80 HP to about a 95 HP engine. This mod is now made by an Italian company as well. Basically a small auto turbo with dash pot, using Rotax type plumbing, a different exhaust geometry and the stock carbs. The key is it is a low boost pressure giving more sea level performance at higher cruising altitudes. Pricey, but well within the capabilities of the 912 as a 914 is just a 912 with a different set of carbs and turbo management system. Other companies have what they call “Bad Ass” and higher output mods increasing output beyond the prop capabilities. Quite pricey, and as I found on the Jason Parker fuel injected turbo conversion, prone to owner/operator tweaking which over boosted the engines making reliability a problem. Props are made in certain power ranges: 80-120, 125-140, 150-180, 250-300. Check your prop capability before upgrading your engine or you may have not just engine costly problems.
Just my two cents.
Bud Yerly
Custom Flight Creations, Inc.
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> on behalf of Martin Tuck <MJKTuck(at)cs.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 13, 2019 10:13:51 PM
To: Europa Builders Forum
Subject: Rotax 912ULS
--> Europa-List message posted by: Martin Tuck <MJKTuck(at)cs.com>
I think I may have traced my intermittent starting problem of my old
912UL to the ignition boxes, so I'm weighing up my options.
Two new ignition boxes are around $1,000 each (!) so I'm not sure I want
to sink that kind of money into a 20 year old engine even though it only
has 300 hours on it.
I like the look of the 912ULS, it has a bit more power, a heavy duty
starter and a slow start module that seems to have resolved the ragged
starting issues of the early engines.
If you have a 912ULS I'd be interested to hear what you think of the
engine and how long you have had it. Also, will it fit in the same
engine ring mount as the 912UL - I'm thinking particularly of the size
of the starter.
Many thanks,
Martin Tuck
N152MT
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wdaniell.longport(at)gmai
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:04 am Post subject: Rotax 912ULS |
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Just to follow up the last para of Buds email - I have flown Colombian turbo since 2004 with zero issues - as bud says I only use 33".
I can put you in touch with the man in Colombia (the Colombian Connection!) - he'll make a kit and come fit it or you can fit it yourself. Mine complete mod cost about USD4k including new exhaust, airbox, oil scavenge tank, jets and mounting brackets and I think that included the turbo. You have to use a stock 80 horse - the high compression of the ULS causes detonation. The only mod to the engine is something done to the oil pump to make sure that the oil is scavenged.
The Colombian guy doesnt speak English which will make for some interesting interactions....he's a great bloke by the way.
Happy to show and tell if anyone is in the area.
Will
N460HJ
On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 1:50 PM Bud Yerly <budyerly(at)msn.com (budyerly(at)msn.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
Martin,
I know the XS uses a Rotax ring mount and changing engines from the UL to the ULS or 914 basically fits on any XS existing Fire Wall Forward (FWF), but the exhaust bends may be close to the cowl front and the ULS new fuel pump gets pretty close to the cowl also. So some fiddling required.Â
Â
The Classic is somewhat different because of the shorter nose and exhaust systems changed slightly between the UL and ULS. The 914 on the Classic during an engine upgrade was a pain. Frankly, I just installed a whole new XS FWF on my Classic and it was worth every penny. The high torque starter Rotax provides is a bit long for the Classic. Consider the aftermarket Sky-Tec starter as it appears to fit and is roughly half the cost and the same size as the original Rotax low torque starter.
Â
I didn’t recommend any 912ULS at Custom Flight until after 2006. Hard starting, poor starters needing 12.5 volts to start, kick back on start, sprag clutch issues, case cracking, horrible shutdown and start up shaking, etc. just sowered me to recommending the engine. After 2006, Rotax finally made adjustments that addressed these issues. Although they never admitted to what they had to do it was obvious when the new engines came out. Field reports indicate the 912ULS (post 2006) are as reliable as the 80HP UL.
Â
The 912ULS new case is stronger, the ignition timing and boxes are optimized for smooth starts and running, it is equipped with a high torque starter standard, and many other little touches that have completely changed my outlook on the 912ULS. The purchase price is very near that of a rebuild 912UL that is 1000 plus hours old. I can do carbs, so the 912ULS is actually more appealing to me than a 912iS fuel injected engine as its fuel economy does not completely trump the maintenance complexity and cost over the short term.
Â
Don’t get me wrong. The iS engine starts and runs smooth, is very economical, and very complex. Your ability to maintain the fuel/electronics has been removed from the average owner/operator. Problems currently are with the automatic electronic fuse box switching controls failing, overheating on the ground due to its running in lean at all times, a much larger, or fan augmented, radiator is a must for summer time operations, a larger or multiple oil coolers are needed to keep the oil in limits, troubleshooting guides are still in flux so give your dealer a break if he can’t give you a quick turn around. I have worked with a number of Pipistrel owners with the iS and Lockwood and Pipistrel have taken ownership of fixing the issues under warranty, but slowly and in my opinion, incompletely. Pipistrel has had to add fans to the radiator (as has Lockwood on the AirCam), larger oil coolers, and Pipistrel had to make cowl modifications which were better, but not enough.
Â
Although the 912ULS burns more gas, it doesn’t overheat on the ground, is easier to troubleshoot, annual maintenance doesn’t require a trip to the Rotax dealer, and is quite a bit cheaper to buy. One can install a carb leaning work around (HACman) if high altitude fuel economy is needed. The HACman works by lowering the float bowl pressure via a needle valve controlling vacuum from the intake manifold to the float bowl tube. The lower pressure in the float bowl reduces the flow slightly through the main jet. (A bit Rube Goldberg, but it is effective if you fly above 3500 MSL. It takes some fiddling with part throttle setting and even finely adjusted needle settings to fine tune your mixture to get the EGT in the proper range. WOT makes it less effective as the manifold and carb throat pressure are nearly equal.)
Â
Do not be sucked in to the “big bore, higher power or other aftermarket cylinder and cam mods” as the mean time between failure is just not documented. Keep the engine reasonably stock. One exception is what I call the “Columbian Turbo mod for the 912UL. This is a reasonable turbo normalizing of a stock UL 80 HP to about a 95 HP engine. This mod is now made by an Italian company as well. Basically a small auto turbo with dash pot, using Rotax type plumbing, a different exhaust geometry and the stock carbs. The key is it is a low boost pressure giving more sea level performance at higher cruising altitudes. Pricey, but well within the capabilities of the 912 as a 914 is just a 912 with a different set of carbs and turbo management system. Other companies have what they call “Bad Ass” and higher output mods increasing output beyond the prop capabilities. Quite pricey, and as I found on the Jason Parker fuel injected turbo conversion, prone to owner/operator tweaking which over boosted the engines making reliability a problem. Props are made in certain power ranges: 80-120, 125-140, 150-180, 250-300. Check your prop capability before upgrading your engine or you may have not just engine costly problems.
Â
Just my two cents.
Â
Bud Yerly
Custom Flight Creations, Inc.
Â
Â
Â
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
Â
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com) <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com)> on behalf of Martin Tuck <MJKTuck(at)cs.com (MJKTuck(at)cs.com)>
Sent: Saturday, July 13, 2019 10:13:51 PM
To: Europa Builders Forum
Subject: Rotax 912ULS Â
--> Europa-List message posted by: Martin Tuck <MJKTuck(at)cs.com (MJKTuck(at)cs.com)>
I think I may have traced my intermittent starting problem of my old
912UL to the ignition boxes, so I'm weighing up my options.
Two new ignition boxes are around $1,000 each (!) so I'm not sure I want
to sink that kind of money into a 20 year old engine even though it only
has 300 hours on it.
I like the look of the 912ULS, it has a bit more power, a heavy duty
starter and a slow start module that seems to have resolved the ragged
starting issues of the early engines.
If you have a 912ULS I'd be interested to hear what you think of the
engine and how long you have had it. Also, will it fit in the same
engine ring mount as the 912UL - I'm thinking particularly of the size
of the starter.
Many thanks,
Martin Tuck
N152MT
===========
st Email Forum -
pa-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
===========
p;Â Â - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
ums.matronics.com
===========
p;Â - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
matronics.com
===========
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http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
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peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:51 am Post subject: Rotax 912ULS |
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Great info Will! Thx!
How bout a show and tell osh next week? 
On Jul 14, 2019, at 3:05 PM, William Daniell <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com (wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Just to follow up the last para of Buds email - I have flown Colombian turbo since 2004 with zero issues - as bud says I only use 33".
I can put you in touch with the man in Colombia (the Colombian Connection!) - he'll make a kit and come fit it or you can fit it yourself. Mine complete mod cost about USD4k including new exhaust, airbox, oil scavenge tank, jets and mounting brackets and I think that included the turbo. You have to use a stock 80 horse - the high compression of the ULS causes detonation. The only mod to the engine is something done to the oil pump to make sure that the oil is scavenged.
The Colombian guy doesnt speak English which will make for some interesting interactions....he's a great bloke by the way.
Happy to show and tell if anyone is in the area.
Will
N460HJ
On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 1:50 PM Bud Yerly <budyerly(at)msn.com (budyerly(at)msn.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
Martin,
I know the XS uses a Rotax ring mount and changing engines from the UL to the ULS or 914 basically fits on any XS existing Fire Wall Forward (FWF), but the exhaust bends may be close to the cowl front and the ULS new fuel pump gets pretty close to the cowl also. So some fiddling required.
The Classic is somewhat different because of the shorter nose and exhaust systems changed slightly between the UL and ULS. The 914 on the Classic during an engine upgrade was a pain. Frankly, I just installed a whole new XS FWF on my Classic and it was worth every penny. The high torque starter Rotax provides is a bit long for the Classic. Consider the aftermarket Sky-Tec starter as it appears to fit and is roughly half the cost and the same size as the original Rotax low torque starter.
I didn’t recommend any 912ULS at Custom Flight until after 2006. Hard starting, poor starters needing 12.5 volts to start, kick back on start, sprag clutch issues, case cracking, horrible shutdown and start up shaking, etc. just sowered me to recommending the engine. After 2006, Rotax finally made adjustments that addressed these issues. Although they never admitted to what they had to do it was obvious when the new engines came out. Field reports indicate the 912ULS (post 2006) are as reliable as the 80HP UL.
The 912ULS new case is stronger, the ignition timing and boxes are optimized for smooth starts and running, it is equipped with a high torque starter standard, and many other little touches that have completely changed my outlook on the 912ULS. The purchase price is very near that of a rebuild 912UL that is 1000 plus hours old. I can do carbs, so the 912ULS is actually more appealing to me than a 912iS fuel injected engine as its fuel economy does not completely trump the maintenance complexity and cost over the short term.
Don’t get me wrong. The iS engine starts and runs smooth, is very economical, and very complex. Your ability to maintain the fuel/electronics has been removed from the average owner/operator. Problems currently are with the automatic electronic fuse box switching controls failing, overheating on the ground due to its running in lean at all times, a much larger, or fan augmented, radiator is a must for summer time operations, a larger or multiple oil coolers are needed to keep the oil in limits, troubleshooting guides are still in flux so give your dealer a break if he can’t give you a quick turn around. I have worked with a number of Pipistrel owners with the iS and Lockwood and Pipistrel have taken ownership of fixing the issues under warranty, but slowly and in my opinion, incompletely. Pipistrel has had to add fans to the radiator (as has Lockwood on the AirCam), larger oil coolers, and Pipistrel had to make cowl modifications which were better, but not enough.
Although the 912ULS burns more gas, it doesn’t overheat on the ground, is easier to troubleshoot, annual maintenance doesn’t require a trip to the Rotax dealer, and is quite a bit cheaper to buy. One can install a carb leaning work around (HACman) if high altitude fuel economy is needed. The HACman works by lowering the float bowl pressure via a needle valve controlling vacuum from the intake manifold to the float bowl tube. The lower pressure in the float bowl reduces the flow slightly through the main jet. (A bit Rube Goldberg, but it is effective if you fly above 3500 MSL. It takes some fiddling with part throttle setting and even finely adjusted needle settings to fine tune your mixture to get the EGT in the proper range. WOT makes it less effective as the manifold and carb throat pressure are nearly equal.)
Do not be sucked in to the “big bore, higher power or other aftermarket cylinder and cam mods” as the mean time between failure is just not documented. Keep the engine reasonably stock. One exception is what I call the “Columbian Turbo mod for the 912UL. This is a reasonable turbo normalizing of a stock UL 80 HP to about a 95 HP engine. This mod is now made by an Italian company as well. Basically a small auto turbo with dash pot, using Rotax type plumbing, a different exhaust geometry and the stock carbs. The key is it is a low boost pressure giving more sea level performance at higher cruising altitudes. Pricey, but well within the capabilities of the 912 as a 914 is just a 912 with a different set of carbs and turbo management system. Other companies have what they call “Bad Ass” and higher output mods increasing output beyond the prop capabilities. Quite pricey, and as I found on the Jason Parker fuel injected turbo conversion, prone to owner/operator tweaking which over boosted the engines making reliability a problem. Props are made in certain power ranges: 80-120, 125-140, 150-180, 250-300. Check your prop capability before upgrading your engine or you may have not just engine costly problems.
Just my two cents.
Bud Yerly
Custom Flight Creations, Inc.
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com) <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com)> on behalf of Martin Tuck <MJKTuck(at)cs.com (MJKTuck(at)cs.com)>
Sent: Saturday, July 13, 2019 10:13:51 PM
To: Europa Builders Forum
Subject: Rotax 912ULS
--> Europa-List message posted by: Martin Tuck <MJKTuck(at)cs.com (MJKTuck(at)cs.com)>
I think I may have traced my intermittent starting problem of my old
912UL to the ignition boxes, so I'm weighing up my options.
Two new ignition boxes are around $1,000 each (!) so I'm not sure I want
to sink that kind of money into a 20 year old engine even though it only
has 300 hours on it.
I like the look of the 912ULS, it has a bit more power, a heavy duty
starter and a slow start module that seems to have resolved the ragged
starting issues of the early engines.
If you have a 912ULS I'd be interested to hear what you think of the
engine and how long you have had it. Also, will it fit in the same
engine ring mount as the 912UL - I'm thinking particularly of the size
of the starter.
Many thanks,
Martin Tuck
N152MT
===========
st Email Forum -
pa-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
===========
p; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
ums.matronics.com
===========
p; - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
matronics.com
===========
p; - List Contribution Web Site -
p; -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
|
|
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
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wdaniell.longport(at)gmai
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2019 9:37 am Post subject: Rotax 912ULS |
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|
Sadly I am still in the test period and con not leave the test area....
William Daniell
LONGPORT
On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 3:55 PM Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com> wrote:
[quote] Great info Will! Thx!
How bout a show and tell osh next week?
On Jul 14, 2019, at 3:05 PM, William Daniell <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com>
wrote:
Just to follow up the last para of Buds email - I have flown Colombian
turbo since 2004 with zero issues - as bud says I only use 33".
I can put you in touch with the man in Colombia (the Colombian
Connection!) - he'll make a kit and come fit it or you can fit it
yourself. Mine complete mod cost about USD4k including new exhaust,
airbox, oil scavenge tank, jets and mounting brackets and I think that
included the turbo. You have to use a stock 80 horse - the high
compression of the ULS causes detonation. The only mod to the engine is
something done to the oil pump to make sure that the oil is scavenged.
The Colombian guy doesnt speak English which will make for some
interesting interactions....he's a great bloke by the way.
Happy to show and tell if anyone is in the area.
Will
N460HJ
On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 1:50 PM Bud Yerly <budyerly(at)msn.com> wrote:
> Martin,
>
> I know the XS uses a Rotax ring mount and changing engines from the UL to
> the ULS or 914 basically fits on any XS existing Fire Wall Forward (FWF),
> but the exhaust bends may be close to the cowl front and the ULS new fuel
> pump gets pretty close to the cowl also. So some fiddling required.
>
> The Classic is somewhat different because of the shorter nose and exhaust
> systems changed slightly between the UL and ULS. The 914 on the Classic
> during an engine upgrade was a pain. Frankly, I just installed a whole new
> XS FWF on my Classic and it was worth every penny. The high torque starter
> Rotax provides is a bit long for the Classic. Consider the aftermarket
> Sky-Tec starter as it appears to fit and is roughly half the cost and the
> same size as the original Rotax low torque starter.
>
> I didn’t recommend any 912ULS at Custom Flight until after 2006. Hard
> starting, poor starters needing 12.5 volts to start, kick back on start,
> sprag clutch issues, case cracking, horrible shutdown and start up shaking,
> etc. just sowered me to recommending the engine. After 2006, Rotax finally
> made adjustments that addressed these issues. Although they never admitted
> to what they had to do it was obvious when the new engines came out. Field
> reports indicate the 912ULS (post 2006) are as reliable as the 80HP UL.
>
> The 912ULS new case is stronger, the ignition timing and boxes are
> optimized for smooth starts and running, it is equipped with a high torque
> starter standard, and many other little touches that have completely
> changed my outlook on the 912ULS. The purchase price is very near that of
> a rebuild 912UL that is 1000 plus hours old. I can do carbs, so the 912ULS
> is actually more appealing to me than a 912iS fuel injected engine as its
> fuel economy does not completely trump the maintenance complexity and cost
> over the short term.
>
> Don’t get me wrong. The iS engine starts and runs smooth, is very
> economical, and very complex. Your ability to maintain the
> fuel/electronics has been removed from the average owner/operator.
> Problems currently are with the automatic electronic fuse box switching
> controls failing, overheating on the ground due to its running in lean at
> all times, a much larger, or fan augmented, radiator is a must for summer
> time operations, a larger or multiple oil coolers are needed to keep the
> oil in limits, troubleshooting guides are still in flux so give your dealer
> a break if he can’t give you a quick turn around. I have worked with a
> number of Pipistrel owners with the iS and Lockwood and Pipistrel have
> taken ownership of fixing the issues under warranty, but slowly and in my
> opinion, incompletely. Pipistrel has had to add fans to the radiator (as
> has Lockwood on the AirCam), larger oil coolers, and Pipistrel had to make
> cowl modifications which were better, but not enough.
>
> Although the 912ULS burns more gas, it doesn’t overheat on the ground, is
> easier to troubleshoot, annual maintenance doesn’t require a trip to the
> Rotax dealer, and is quite a bit cheaper to buy. One can install a carb
> leaning work around (HACman) if high altitude fuel economy is needed. The
> HACman works by lowering the float bowl pressure via a needle valve
> controlling vacuum from the intake manifold to the float bowl tube. The
> lower pressure in the float bowl reduces the flow slightly through the main
> jet. (A bit Rube Goldberg, but it is effective if you fly above 3500 MSL
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2019 10:02 am Post subject: Rotax 912ULS |
|
|
But there's more than 50 hours till Osh-tuesday
Oh well, next year?
Cheers and blue skies,
Pete
On Mon, Jul 15, 2019 at 1:45 PM William Daniell <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com (wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Sadly I am still in the test period and con not leave the test area....
William Daniell
LONGPORT
On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 3:55 PM Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com (peterz(at)zutrasoft.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
Great info Will! Thx!
How bout a show and tell osh next week?
On Jul 14, 2019, at 3:05 PM, William Daniell <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com (wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Just to follow up the last para of Buds email - I have flown Colombian turbo since 2004 with zero issues - as bud says I only use 33".
I can put you in touch with the man in Colombia (the Colombian Connection!) - he'll make a kit and come fit it or you can fit it yourself. Mine complete mod cost about USD4k including new exhaust, airbox, oil scavenge tank, jets and mounting brackets and I think that included the turbo. You have to use a stock 80 horse - the high compression of the ULS causes detonation. The only mod to the engine is something done to the oil pump to make sure that the oil is scavenged.
The Colombian guy doesnt speak English which will make for some interesting interactions....he's a great bloke by the way.
Happy to show and tell if anyone is in the area.
Will
N460HJ
On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 1:50 PM Bud Yerly <budyerly(at)msn.com (budyerly(at)msn.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | 1484733363178281329x_MsoNormal">Martin, 1484733363178281329x_MsoNormal">I know the XS uses a Rotax ring mount and changing engines from the UL to the ULS or 914 basically fits on any XS existing Fire Wall Forward (FWF), but the exhaust bends may be close to the cowl front and the ULS new fuel pump gets pretty close to the cowl also. So some fiddling required. 1484733363178281329x_MsoNormal"> 1484733363178281329x_MsoNormal">The Classic is somewhat different because of the shorter nose and exhaust systems changed slightly between the UL and ULS. The 914 on the Classic during an engine upgrade was a pain. Frankly, I just installed a whole new XS FWF on my Classic and it was worth every penny. The high torque starter Rotax provides is a bit long for the Classic. Consider the aftermarket Sky-Tec starter as it appears to fit and is roughly half the cost and the same size as the original Rotax low torque starter. 1484733363178281329x_MsoNormal"> 1484733363178281329x_MsoNormal">I didn’t recommend any 912ULS at Custom Flight until after 2006. Hard starting, poor starters needing 12.5 volts to start, kick back on start, sprag clutch issues, case cracking, horrible shutdown and start up shaking, etc. just sowered me to recommending the engine. After 2006, Rotax finally made adjustments that addressed these issues. Although they never admitted to what they had to do it was obvious when the new engines came out. Field reports indicate the 912ULS (post 2006) are as reliable as the 80HP UL. 1484733363178281329x_MsoNormal"> 1484733363178281329x_MsoNormal">The 912ULS new case is stronger, the ignition timing and boxes are optimized for smooth starts and running, it is equipped with a high torque starter standard, and many other little touches that have completely changed my outlook on the 912ULS. The purchase price is very near that of a rebuild 912UL that is 1000 plus hours old. I can do carbs, so the 912ULS is actually more appealing to me than a 912iS fuel injected engine as its fuel economy does not completely trump the maintenance complexity and cost over the short term. 1484733363178281329x_MsoNormal"> 1484733363178281329x_MsoNormal">Don’t get me wrong. The iS engine starts and runs smooth, is very economical, and very complex. Your ability to maintain the fuel/electronics has been removed from the average owner/operator. Problems currently are with the automatic electronic fuse box switching controls failing, overheating on the ground due to its running in lean at all times, a much larger, or fan augmented, radiator is a must for summer time operations, a larger or multiple oil coolers are needed to keep the oil in limits, troubleshooting guides are still in flux so give your dealer a break if he can’t give you a quick turn around. I have worked with a number of Pipistrel owners with the iS and Lockwood and Pipistrel have taken ownership of fixing the issues under warranty, but slowly and in my opinion, incompletely. Pipistrel has had to add fans to the radiator (as has Lockwood on the AirCam), larger oil coolers, and Pipistrel had to make cowl modifications which were better, but not enough. 1484733363178281329x_MsoNormal"> 1484733363178281329x_MsoNormal">Although the 912ULS burns more gas, it doesn’t overheat on the ground, is easier to troubleshoot, annual maintenance doesn’t require a trip to the Rotax dealer, and is quite a bit cheaper to buy. One can install a carb leaning work around (HACman) if high altitude fuel economy is needed. The HACman works by lowering the float bowl pressure via a needle valve controlling vacuum from the intake manifold to the float bowl tube. The lower pressure in the float bowl reduces the flow slightly through the main jet. (A bit Rube Goldberg, but it is effective if you fly above 3500 MSL. It takes some fiddling with part throttle setting and even finely adjusted needle settings to fine tune your mixture to get the EGT in the proper range. WOT makes it less effective as the manifold and carb throat pressure are nearly equal.) 1484733363178281329x_MsoNormal"> 1484733363178281329x_MsoNormal">Do not be sucked in to the “big bore, higher power or other aftermarket cylinder and cam mods” as the mean time between failure is just not documented. Keep the engine reasonably stock. One exception is what I call the “Columbian Turbo mod for the 912UL. This is a reasonable turbo normalizing of a stock UL 80 HP to about a 95 HP engine. This mod is now made by an Italian company as well. Basically a small auto turbo with dash pot, using Rotax type plumbing, a different exhaust geometry and the stock carbs. The key is it is a low boost pressure giving more sea level performance at higher cruising altitudes. Pricey, but well within the capabilities of the 912 as a 914 is just a 912 with a different set of carbs and turbo management system. Other companies have what they call “Bad Ass” and higher output mods increasing output beyond the prop capabilities. Quite pricey, and as I found on the Jason Parker fuel injected turbo conversion, prone to owner/operator tweaking which over boosted the engines making reliability a problem. Props are made in certain power ranges: 80-120, 125-140, 150-180, 250-300. Check your prop capability before upgrading your engine or you may have not just engine costly problems. 1484733363178281329x_MsoNormal"> 1484733363178281329x_MsoNormal">Just my two cents. 1484733363178281329x_MsoNormal"> 1484733363178281329x_MsoNormal">Bud Yerly 1484733363178281329x_MsoNormal">Custom Flight Creations, Inc. 1484733363178281329x_MsoNormal"> 1484733363178281329x_MsoNormal"> 1484733363178281329x_MsoNormal"> 1484733363178281329x_MsoNormal">Sent from Mail for Windows 10 1484733363178281329x_MsoNormal">Â
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com) <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com)> on behalf of Martin Tuck <MJKTuck(at)cs.com (MJKTuck(at)cs.com)>
Sent: Saturday, July 13, 2019 10:13:51 PM
To: Europa Builders Forum
Subject: Rotax 912ULS Â
--> Europa-List message posted by: Martin Tuck <MJKTuck(at)cs.com (MJKTuck(at)cs.com)>
I think I may have traced my intermittent starting problem of my old
912UL to the ignition boxes, so I'm weighing up my options.
Two new ignition boxes are around $1,000 each (!) so I'm not sure I want
to sink that kind of money into a 20 year old engine even though it only
has 300 hours on it.
I like the look of the 912ULS, it has a bit more power, a heavy duty
starter and a slow start module that seems to have resolved the ragged
starting issues of the early engines.
If you have a 912ULS I'd be interested to hear what you think of the
engine and how long you have had it. Also, will it fit in the same
engine ring mount as the 912UL - I'm thinking particularly of the size
of the starter.
Many thanks,
Martin Tuck
N152MT
===========
st Email Forum -
pa-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
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wdaniell.longport(at)gmai
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:51 am Post subject: Rotax 912ULS |
|
|
So you think a 40 hour endurance flight......mmmmm
Nope itll have to be next year
William Daniell
LONGPORT
+57 310 295 0744
On Mon, Jul 15, 2019, 14:06 Peter Zutrauen <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com (peterz(at)zutrasoft.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | But there's more than 50 hours till Osh-tuesday
Oh well, next year?
Cheers and blue skies,
Pete
On Mon, Jul 15, 2019 at 1:45 PM William Daniell <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com (wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Sadly I am still in the test period and con not leave the test area....
William Daniell
LONGPORT
On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 3:55 PM Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com (peterz(at)zutrasoft.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
Great info Will! Thx!
How bout a show and tell osh next week?
On Jul 14, 2019, at 3:05 PM, William Daniell <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com (wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Just to follow up the last para of Buds email - I have flown Colombian turbo since 2004 with zero issues - as bud says I only use 33".
I can put you in touch with the man in Colombia (the Colombian Connection!) - he'll make a kit and come fit it or you can fit it yourself. Mine complete mod cost about USD4k including new exhaust, airbox, oil scavenge tank, jets and mounting brackets and I think that included the turbo. You have to use a stock 80 horse - the high compression of the ULS causes detonation. The only mod to the engine is something done to the oil pump to make sure that the oil is scavenged.
The Colombian guy doesnt speak English which will make for some interesting interactions....he's a great bloke by the way.
Happy to show and tell if anyone is in the area.
Will
N460HJ
On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 1:50 PM Bud Yerly <budyerly(at)msn.com (budyerly(at)msn.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | 1484733363178281329x_MsoNormal">Martin, 1484733363178281329x_MsoNormal">I know the XS uses a Rotax ring mount and changing engines from the UL to the ULS or 914 basically fits on any XS existing Fire Wall Forward (FWF), but the exhaust bends may be close to the cowl front and the ULS new fuel pump gets pretty close to the cowl also. So some fiddling required. 1484733363178281329x_MsoNormal"> 1484733363178281329x_MsoNormal">The Classic is somewhat different because of the shorter nose and exhaust systems changed slightly between the UL and ULS. The 914 on the Classic during an engine upgrade was a pain. Frankly, I just installed a whole new XS FWF on my Classic and it was worth every penny. The high torque starter Rotax provides is a bit long for the Classic. Consider the aftermarket Sky-Tec starter as it appears to fit and is roughly half the cost and the same size as the original Rotax low torque starter. 1484733363178281329x_MsoNormal"> 1484733363178281329x_MsoNormal">I didn’t recommend any 912ULS at Custom Flight until after 2006. Hard starting, poor starters needing 12.5 volts to start, kick back on start, sprag clutch issues, case cracking, horrible shutdown and start up shaking, etc. just sowered me to recommending the engine. After 2006, Rotax finally made adjustments that addressed these issues. Although they never admitted to what they had to do it was obvious when the new engines came out. Field reports indicate the 912ULS (post 2006) are as reliable as the 80HP UL. 1484733363178281329x_MsoNormal"> 1484733363178281329x_MsoNormal">The 912ULS new case is stronger, the ignition timing and boxes are optimized for smooth starts and running, it is equipped with a high torque starter standard, and many other little touches that have completely changed my outlook on the 912ULS. The purchase price is very near that of a rebuild 912UL that is 1000 plus hours old. I can do carbs, so the 912ULS is actually more appealing to me than a 912iS fuel injected engine as its fuel economy does not completely trump the maintenance complexity and cost over the short term. 1484733363178281329x_MsoNormal"> 1484733363178281329x_MsoNormal">Don’t get me wrong. The iS engine starts and runs smooth, is very economical, and very complex. Your ability to maintain the fuel/electronics has been removed from the average owner/operator. Problems currently are with the automatic electronic fuse box switching controls failing, overheating on the ground due to its running in lean at all times, a much larger, or fan augmented, radiator is a must for summer time operations, a larger or multiple oil coolers are needed to keep the oil in limits, troubleshooting guides are still in flux so give your dealer a break if he can’t give you a quick turn around. I have worked with a number of Pipistrel owners with the iS and Lockwood and Pipistrel have taken ownership of fixing the issues under warranty, but slowly and in my opinion, incompletely. Pipistrel has had to add fans to the radiator (as has Lockwood on the AirCam), larger oil coolers, and Pipistrel had to make cowl modifications which were better, but not enough. 1484733363178281329x_MsoNormal"> 1484733363178281329x_MsoNormal">Although the 912ULS burns more gas, it doesn’t overheat on the ground, is easier to troubleshoot, annual maintenance doesn’t require a trip to the Rotax dealer, and is quite a bit cheaper to buy. One can install a carb leaning work around (HACman) if high altitude fuel economy is needed. The HACman works by lowering the float bowl pressure via a needle valve controlling vacuum from the intake manifold to the float bowl tube. The lower pressure in the float bowl reduces the flow slightly through the main jet. (A bit Rube Goldberg, but it is effective if you fly above 3500 MSL. It takes some fiddling with part throttle setting and even finely adjusted needle settings to fine tune your mixture to get the EGT in the proper range. WOT makes it less effective as the manifold and carb throat pressure are nearly equal.) 1484733363178281329x_MsoNormal"> 1484733363178281329x_MsoNormal">Do not be sucked in to the “big bore, higher power or other aftermarket cylinder and cam mods” as the mean time between failure is just not documented. Keep the engine reasonably stock. One exception is what I call the “Columbian Turbo mod for the 912UL. This is a reasonable turbo normalizing of a stock UL 80 HP to about a 95 HP engine. This mod is now made by an Italian company as well. Basically a small auto turbo with dash pot, using Rotax type plumbing, a different exhaust geometry and the stock carbs. The key is it is a low boost pressure giving more sea level performance at higher cruising altitudes. Pricey, but well within the capabilities of the 912 as a 914 is just a 912 with a different set of carbs and turbo management system. Other companies have what they call “Bad Ass” and higher output mods increasing output beyond the prop capabilities. Quite pricey, and as I found on the Jason Parker fuel injected turbo conversion, prone to owner/operator tweaking which over boosted the engines making reliability a problem. Props are made in certain power ranges: 80-120, 125-140, 150-180, 250-300. Check your prop capability before upgrading your engine or you may have not just engine costly problems. 1484733363178281329x_MsoNormal"> 1484733363178281329x_MsoNormal">Just my two cents. 1484733363178281329x_MsoNormal"> 1484733363178281329x_MsoNormal">Bud Yerly 1484733363178281329x_MsoNormal">Custom Flight Creations, Inc. 1484733363178281329x_MsoNormal"> 1484733363178281329x_MsoNormal"> 1484733363178281329x_MsoNormal"> 1484733363178281329x_MsoNormal">Sent from Mail for Windows 10 1484733363178281329x_MsoNormal">Â
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com) <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com)> on behalf of Martin Tuck <MJKTuck(at)cs.com (MJKTuck(at)cs.com)>
Sent: Saturday, July 13, 2019 10:13:51 PM
To: Europa Builders Forum
Subject: Rotax 912ULS Â
--> Europa-List message posted by: Martin Tuck <MJKTuck(at)cs.com (MJKTuck(at)cs.com)>
I think I may have traced my intermittent starting problem of my old
912UL to the ignition boxes, so I'm weighing up my options.
Two new ignition boxes are around $1,000 each (!) so I'm not sure I want
to sink that kind of money into a 20 year old engine even though it only
has 300 hours on it.
I like the look of the 912ULS, it has a bit more power, a heavy duty
starter and a slow start module that seems to have resolved the ragged
starting issues of the early engines.
If you have a 912ULS I'd be interested to hear what you think of the
engine and how long you have had it. Also, will it fit in the same
engine ring mount as the 912UL - I'm thinking particularly of the size
of the starter.
Many thanks,
Martin Tuck
N152MT
===========
st Email Forum -
pa-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
===========
p;Â Â - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
ums.matronics.com
===========
p;Â - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
matronics.com
===========
p; - List Contribution Web Site -
p;Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
|
|
|
|
|
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
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