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Fly day

 
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alan.twigg775(at)gmail.co
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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 10:03 am    Post subject: Fly day Reply with quote

I have just reached engine start stage but have no indicated oil pressure. I primed and started with a flashing 145 in the oil pressure window. All other readings were as expected. I shutdown before 30 seconds and investigated, everything secure, re primed the oil, with the same flashing 145.
Any ideas out there? Scared for my engine (52 years retired engine man).
Alan Twigg
Long Wing mono
Kit 463

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pete(at)lawless.info
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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 10:53 am    Post subject: Fly day Reply with quote

Alan - can't help with digital instrument readouts.

But if you pop the top plug out of each pot you will be able to turn the
engine over fast enough on the starter to see the oil pressure rise.

Good luck

Pete

G-RMAC Classic #109

On 20/05/2019 19:03, Alan Twigg wrote:
Quote:


I have just reached engine start stage but have no indicated oil pressure. I primed and started with a flashing 145 in the oil pressure window. All other readings were as expected. I shutdown before 30 seconds and investigated, everything secure, re primed the oil, with the same flashing 145.
Any ideas out there? Scared for my engine (52 years retired engine man).
Alan Twigg
Long Wing mono
Kit 463

Sent from my iPad




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ptag.dev(at)talktalk.net
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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 10:58 am    Post subject: Fly day Reply with quote

Hi! Alan,
Suggest you take out a plug from all cylinders and run it on the starter
until you get pressure to ensure all systems are flushed full with oil. Then
replace the plugs and try another run after you got the pressure on a gauge.
What engine is it ? ..........Hydraulic tapits perhaps need the chambers
full? Have you bled the oil cooler? And pressured up the oil tank with a
bike pump ?
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG

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SPURPURA



Joined: 04 Apr 2015
Posts: 66
Location: KAPV

PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 12:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Fly day Reply with quote

Perhaps a bad or faulty sending unit.

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Remi Guerner



Joined: 14 Dec 2010
Posts: 284

PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 11:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Fly day Reply with quote

<<<But>>>

A word of caution here: assuming we are talking about a Rotax, without the spark plugs, there is no blow-by to pressurize the crankcase, so the oil is not returned to the tank. Therefore the tank may become empty and you pump air into the oil circuit. The crankcase may be flooded.
To use this method safely, you need to disconnect the oil return line and set it so that the oil is drained from the crankcase by gravity, and refill the oil tank at the same time to keep the oil level high enough.

Remi


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ptag.dev(at)talktalk.net
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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 1:51 am    Post subject: Fly day Reply with quote

Hi! Remi.
The official Rotax plan to bleed the oil cooler calls for the top of the
tank to be pressurized (so you are correct partly ) however it is not to
use all the oil in the tank or the oil system would be taking in air
defeating the objective of bleeding the cooler. Having embarked on bleeding
the oil cooler provided the tank level remains adequate and is topped up to
remain sure the oil cooler is evacuated of air,( that should be sufficient
to achieve oil pressure on the instrument) then replace the ignition plugs
and top up with oil which will pressure oil from the sump to the oil pump
and so evacuate the sump again.( BUT BE SURE NOT TO FINISH UP WITH THE TANK
OVER FILLED!)( Almost wish I hadn't entered into this issue !)
Regards to all
Bob Harrison G-PTAG

--


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h&jeuropa



Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 634

PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 7:22 am    Post subject: Re: Fly day Reply with quote

Alan,

Temporarily install a simple mechanical oil pressure gauge. It's easiest if you can have both gauges connected to the engine at the same time, but you can also test with one and then the other. If you hand prop the engine, it will build enough oil pressure to indicate on a gauge. Compare the mechanical gauge reading and your electronic reading.

The VDO pressure senders have a history of failure, especially when operated attached to the engine as Rotax does. Vibration is the problem. A better solution is to remote mount the sender. There are several kits available to do this. I used one from Leading Edge Airfoils in the US.

Jim Butcher


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budyerly(at)msn.com
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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 7:33 am    Post subject: Fly day Reply with quote

Alan,
Good advice from all.

Once the oil system is secure and connections tight, ensure the oil tank is filled, disconnect the oil line to the pump at the front and pressurize the oil tank through the vent hole until the oil supply line is purged of air (your oil cooler is now full). Reconnect your oil line, then check the sender is connected and operational. (You did put oil in the filter before installing it or there will be a large air bubble in the system which won’t clear for some agonizing seconds.)

I test my sensors prior to engine run when I can ( I have an air pressure source and a manifold with regulator to screw the sensor into to either calibrate or check it). On existing engines I normally do not remove the oil sensor, because like Bob Harrison, I prime the engine first by pulling and safeing the all the plug wires and remove the top plugs, spinning with the starter for about 10 -15 seconds (by hand is a bit tedious but you can feel the resistance of the oil pump when it gets oil) until oil pressure stabilizes on the gauge, then replace the spark plugs and burp the engine to get the can full again and top off the oil as necessary. With good pressure, I then pull off the valve covers and check my lifters to see if they are solid. If not, repeat the pressurization. If you have oil pressure with the engine being turned (normally 45 to 60 PSI while cranking cold) for 15-20 seconds, the engine oil delivery system is sound and tight. As an engine guy you know it’s not rocket science, but reviewing and following the SBs on the priming of the oil system is essential on an engine that has sat for some time. Trust but verify.

The Rotax pressure bleed is the right thing to do, but again, it takes many hands so an assistant is recommended. Did I mention it is messy to prime an oil system, so some cleanup may be required. By doing the oil filling and purge by hand as I do, it allows me to do it alone with only minor cleanup of drips rather than by the Rotax Service method alone.

If no oil pressure is found, it is most likely the sensor.
Obviously a direct reading oil pressure gauge is the best solution for testing oil pressure.

To check your gauge and wiring:
Remove the oil sensor wire and ground it, note the pressure indication at zero, then unground and leave the end isolated and check the indicator again, it should peg max.

If the above has happened you’re wiring is OK, but the sender is suspect. Test it by hooking to a regulated air source and checking the ohm readings against the rotax manual. If you installed a Honeywell or similar digital sender, check the leads are properly wired and connected, and use an air source to check the pressure over the range from 10-100 PSI.

Nine times out of ten, it’s the sender or wiring. If you have oil at the pump (cooler is full), the filter is full of oil, the lifters are solid, and oil is getting to the bottom of the crankcase that must be burped out, oil is going through the engine for sure. If there is a bad bearing, or seal that is gone, it will show in one of two ways:
  1. As low oil pressure during the cranking by hand or starter and on engine start.
  2. The initial pull on the prop is very high will indicate an internal bearing or its support flange has failed.


Fear not, check all is well with the internal and connections as above. If it is, then start up.

Bud Yerly
Custom Flight Creations, Inc.

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> on behalf of Bob Harrison <ptag.dev(at)talktalk.net>
Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2019 5:51:14 AM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Re: Fly day


--> Europa-List message posted by: "Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)talktalk.net>

Hi! Remi.
The official Rotax plan to bleed the oil cooler calls for the top of the
tank to be pressurized (so you are correct partly ) however it is not to
use all the oil in the tank or the oil system would be taking in air
defeating the objective of bleeding the cooler. Having embarked on bleeding
the oil cooler provided the tank level remains adequate and is topped up to
remain sure the oil cooler is evacuated of air,( that should be sufficient
to achieve oil pressure on the instrument) then replace the ignition plugs
and top up with oil which will pressure oil from the sump to the oil pump
and so evacuate the sump again.( BUT BE SURE NOT TO FINISH UP WITH THE TANK
OVER FILLED!)( Almost wish I hadn't entered into this issue !)
Regards to all
Bob Harrison G-PTAG

--


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Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

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alan.twigg775(at)gmail.co
Guest





PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 9:38 am    Post subject: Fly day Reply with quote

Thanks all, I was in touch with the new Rotax dealers. Their tech is very good.I have the wrong oil pressure transmitter for the Flydat. I need a VDO transmitter.
Anyone got one?
Alan Twigg
G-GIWT
Kit 463

Sent from my iPhone

On 21 May 2019, at 16:33, Bud Yerly <budyerly(at)msn.com (budyerly(at)msn.com)> wrote:
[quote]
Alan,
Good advice from all.

Once the oil system is secure and connections tight, ensure the oil tank is filled, disconnect the oil line to the pump at the front and pressurize the oil tank through the vent hole until the oil supply line is purged of air (your oil cooler is now full). Reconnect your oil line, then check the sender is connected and operational. (You did put oil in the filter before installing it or there will be a large air bubble in the system which won’t clear for some agonizing seconds.)

I test my sensors prior to engine run when I can ( I have an air pressure source and a manifold with regulator to screw the sensor into to either calibrate or check it). On existing engines I normally do not remove the oil sensor, because like Bob Harrison, I prime the engine first by pulling and safeing the all the plug wires and remove the top plugs, spinning with the starter for about 10 -15 seconds (by hand is a bit tedious but you can feel the resistance of the oil pump when it gets oil) until oil pressure stabilizes on the gauge, then replace the spark plugs and burp the engine to get the can full again and top off the oil as necessary. With good pressure, I then pull off the valve covers and check my lifters to see if they are solid. If not, repeat the pressurization. If you have oil pressure with the engine being turned (normally 45 to 60 PSI while cranking cold) for 15-20 seconds, the engine oil delivery system is sound and tight. As an engine guy you know it’s not rocket science, but reviewing and following the SBs on the priming of the oil system is essential on an engine that has sat for some time. Trust but verify.

The Rotax pressure bleed is the right thing to do, but again, it takes many hands so an assistant is recommended. Did I mention it is messy to prime an oil system, so some cleanup may be required.  By doing the oil filling and purge by hand as I do, it allows me to do it alone with only minor cleanup of drips rather than by the Rotax Service method alone.

If no oil pressure is found, it is most likely the sensor.
Obviously a direct reading oil pressure gauge is the best solution for testing oil pressure.

To check your gauge and wiring:
Remove the oil sensor wire and ground it, note the pressure indication at zero, then unground and leave the end isolated and check the indicator again, it should peg max.

If the above has happened you’re wiring is OK, but the sender is suspect. Test it by hooking to a regulated air source and checking the ohm readings against the rotax manual. If you installed a Honeywell or similar digital sender, check the leads are properly wired and connected, and use an air source to check the pressure over the range from 10-100 PSI.

Nine times out of ten, it’s the sender or wiring. If you have oil at the pump (cooler is full), the filter is full of oil, the lifters are solid, and oil is getting to the bottom of the crankcase that must be burped out, oil is going through the engine for sure. If there is a bad bearing, or seal that is gone, it will show in one of two ways:
  1. As low oil pressure during the cranking by hand or starter and on engine start.
  2. The initial pull on the prop is very high will indicate an internal bearing or its support flange has failed.


Fear not, check all is well with the internal and connections as above. If it is, then start up.

Bud Yerly
Custom Flight Creations, Inc.

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com) <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com)> on behalf of Bob Harrison <ptag.dev(at)talktalk.net (ptag.dev(at)talktalk.net)>
Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2019 5:51:14 AM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: Re: Fly day


--> Europa-List message posted by: "Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)talktalk.net (ptag.dev(at)talktalk.net)>

Hi! Remi.
The official Rotax plan to bleed the oil cooler calls for the top of the
tank to be pressurized (so you are correct partly ) however it is not to
use all the oil in the tank or the oil system would be taking in air
defeating the objective of bleeding the cooler. Having embarked on bleeding
the oil cooler provided the tank level remains adequate and is topped up to
remain sure the oil cooler is evacuated of air,( that should be sufficient
to achieve oil pressure on the instrument) then replace the ignition plugs
and top up with oil which will pressure oil from the sump to the oil pump
and so evacuate the sump again.( BUT BE SURE NOT TO FINISH UP WITH THE TANK
OVER FILLED!)( Almost wish I hadn't entered into this issue !)
Regards to all
Bob Harrison G-PTAG

--


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