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victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.
Guest

Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 2:23 pm Post subject: High Thrust Line Question

Kolbers, I ran into a significant problem on my Firestar, and it may cause me to not be able to finish the project. I hope this is not as much of a problem as I fear.



When I bought my HKS engine I did not know to ask whether it had one type gearbox or another. It has the 3.47 to 1 box, which will spin a large propeller very slowly.



After reading some ot the Kolb List stories about high thrust lines and putting the Kolb over on its nose, I realized I wanted to keep the thrust line as low as possible for best performance and handling. However, with the gearbox rotated to the "down" position, it limited the propeller diameter to 64 inches with a one inch tailboom clearance. With the 3.47 gearbox I have, a three blade propeller with 62-64 inch diameter is not enough... the engine will overspeed before I get the full amount of thrust.



Someone suggested using a four or five blade propeller, but that would prevent the wings from folding back.



I contacted the engine distributor to ask if I could switch the gears around to make my gearbox a 2.58 to 1 ratio,a nd you cannot do that without changing the gearbox itself.



So I asked how much it would cost to buy a new gearbox, andit is way too high for me to consider doing right now. Maybe when I win the lottery.



Someone else suggested that I turn the gearbox around facing "up", which would allow a much larger propeller. My first reaction was "Oh goodness no, that will raise the thrust line too high, and it will cause the airplane to nose over on takeoff, I'll run out of elevator control, etc. etc...."



But then I realized that was an assumption rather than a known fact. Before I gave up on the project, perhaps I can move the gearbox upwards and not have problems... but how far?



So I would like to ask the experienced Kolbers: JUST EXACTLY HOW HIGH can the thrust line be on a Kolb Firestar 2 before it creates safety/handling/nose-over problems? Can the center of the propeller be 34 inches above the tailboom...36 inches...38 inches...40 inches????

Bill Berle

www.ezflaphandle.com  - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft

www.grantstar.net           - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities

lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 2:38 pm Post subject: High Thrust Line Question

I'm swinging a 66 inch Warp with the gear box in the down position.Larry

On Mon, May 7, 2018 at 4:21 PM, Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kolb-List message posted by: Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)>

 

 Kolbers, I ran into a significant problem on my Firestar, and it may cause me to not be able to finish the project. I hope this is not as much of a problem as I fear.

 

 When I bought my HKS engine I did not know to ask whether it had one type gearbox or another. It has the 3.47 to 1 box, which will spin a large propeller very slowly.

 

 After reading some ot the Kolb List stories about high thrust lines and putting the Kolb over on its nose, I realized I wanted to keep the thrust line as low as possible for best performance and handling. However, with the gearbox rotated to the "down" position, it limited the propeller diameter to 64 inches with a one inch tailboom clearance. With the 3.47 gearbox I have, a three blade propeller with 62-64 inch diameter is not enough... the engine will overspeed before I get the full amount of thrust.

 

 Someone suggested using a four or five blade propeller, but that would prevent the wings from folding back.

 

 I contacted the engine distributor to ask if I could switch the gears around to make my gearbox a 2.58 to 1 ratio,a nd you cannot do that without changing the gearbox itself.

 

 So I asked how much it would cost to buy a new gearbox, andit is way too high for me to consider doing right now. Maybe when I win the lottery.

 

 Someone else suggested that I turn the gearbox around facing "up", which would allow a much larger propeller. My first reaction was "Oh goodness no, that will raise the thrust line too high, and it will cause the airplane to nose over on takeoff, I'll run out of elevator control, etc. etc...."

 

 But then I realized that was an assumption rather than a known fact. Before I gave up on the project, perhaps I can move the gearbox upwards and not have problems... but how far?

 

 So I would like to ask the experienced Kolbers: JUST EXACTLY HOW HIGH can the thrust line be on a Kolb Firestar 2 before it creates safety/handling/nose-over problems? Can the center of the propeller be 34 inches above the tailboom...36 inches...38 inches...40 inches????

 

 

 Bill Berle

 www.ezflaphandle.com  - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft

 www.grantstar.net           - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities

 

 

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-- 

The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others.





If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending.

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John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 2:50 pm Post subject: High Thrust Line Question

Larry C's Warp is a two blade.

 

john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

 

 

 

From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Cottrell

Sent: Monday, May 07, 2018 5:37 PM

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: High Thrust Line Question



 

I'm swinging a 66 inch Warp with the gear box in the down position.

Larry

 

On Mon, May 7, 2018 at 4:21 PM, Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote:

--> Kolb-List message posted by: Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)>



Kolbers, I ran into a significant problem on my Firestar, and it may cause me to not be able to finish the project. I hope this is not as much of a problem as I fear.



When I bought my HKS engine I did not know to ask whether it had one type gearbox or another. It has the 3.47 to 1 box, which will spin a large propeller very slowly.



After reading some ot the Kolb List stories about high thrust lines and putting the Kolb over on its nose, I realized I wanted to keep the thrust line as low as possible for best performance and handling. However, with the gearbox rotated to the "down" position, it limited the propeller diameter to 64 inches with a one inch tailboom clearance. With the 3.47 gearbox I have, a three blade propeller with 62-64 inch diameter is not enough... the engine will overspeed before I get the full amount of thrust.



Someone suggested using a four or five blade propeller, but that would prevent the wings from folding back.



I contacted the engine distributor to ask if I could switch the gears around to make my gearbox a 2.58 to 1 ratio,a nd you cannot do that without changing the gearbox itself.



So I asked how much it would cost to buy a new gearbox, andit is way too high for me to consider doing right now. Maybe when I win the lottery.



Someone else suggested that I turn the gearbox around facing "up", which would allow a much larger propeller. My first reaction was "Oh goodness no, that will raise the thrust line too high, and it will cause the airplane to nose over on takeoff, I'll run out of elevator control, etc. etc...."



But then I realized that was an assumption rather than a known fact. Before I gave up on the project, perhaps I can move the gearbox upwards and not have problems... but how far?



So I would like to ask the experienced Kolbers: JUST EXACTLY HOW HIGH can the thrust line be on a Kolb Firestar 2 before it creates safety/handling/nose-over problems? Can the center of the propeller be 34 inches above the tailboom...36 inches...38 inches...40 inches????

Bill Berle

www.ezflaphandle.com  - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft

www.grantstar.net           - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities

====================================

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          -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

===========

 



-- 

The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others.



 



If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending.

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.
Guest

Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 3:04 pm Post subject: High Thrust Line Question

On Mon, 5/7/18, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com> wrote:



  I'm swinging a 66  inch Warp with the gear box in the down position.



With the 3.47 to 1 gearbox????

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 3:15 pm Post subject: High Thrust Line Question

I have run 72" props on my mkIII with 3/4" tail boom clearance.  That puts the center of thrust 36.375" above the top of the tail boom.



If the engine overpowers the elevator, come back on the power a bit.  Doesn't take much to get a Kolb off the ground.  Soon as you get some airspeed, go back to full throttle.  I had to do that initially, when I upgraded from an 80 to a 100 hp 912.



Kolbers that let the Kolb nose over on takeoff need to learn how to fly the airplane.  I don't dump the throttle on takeoff.  Be gentle and it will do what you want it too.



Go to longer main gear legs to put the nose up and put more weight on the tail wheel.



These are things I have done over the years with my Kolbs.  Not recommending anyone else follow suit.



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama





--

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.
Guest

Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 3:56 pm Post subject: High Thrust Line Question

THANK YOU John H, I appreciate the experience you have shared. 



I have already put very tall Slingshot gear legs on my Firestar to get the nose up, and larger tires on top of that. I measured 32 inches from the edge of the "socket" tube on the fuselage down the gear leg, around the bend, and down to the axle, making this possibly the "tallest" Firestar out there. It sure looks like a STOL airplane 



I am also looking at photos and videos of Firestars and MK 3's, noticing how far above the wing the thrust line is. I even watched the 20 year old Kolb promotional ideo with a young John H flying the Slingshot  It APPEARS from those videos that my thrust line with the gearbox turned "up" should fall within those dimensions.



Since turning the gearbox around doesn't cost anything, and since I really would like to keep the Kolb and continue getting it in the air, it looks like I will try this first and see. So I'll sell all my other airplane junk instead, and use that money to finish the Kolb 



Anyone need an A-65 engine or a nice Avid Flyer B model airframe?



Bill Berle

www.ezflaphandle.com  - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft

www.grantstar.net           - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities



--------------------------------------------

On Mon, 5/7/18, John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> wrote:



 Subject: RE: High Thrust Line Question

 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Monday, May 7, 2018, 4:14 PM

 

 

 Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>

 

 I have run 72" props on my mkIII with

 3/4" tail boom clearance.  That puts the center of

 thrust 36.375" above the top of the tail boom.

 

 If the engine overpowers the elevator,

 come back on the power a bit.  Doesn't take much to get

 a Kolb off the ground.  Soon as you get some airspeed,

 go back to full throttle.  I had to do that initially,

 when I upgraded from an 80 to a 100 hp 912.

 

 Kolbers that let the Kolb nose over on

 takeoff need to learn how to fly the airplane.  I don't

 dump the throttle on takeoff.  Be gentle and it will do

 what you want it too.

 

 Go to longer main gear legs to put the

 nose up and put more weight on the tail wheel.

 

 These are things I have done over the

 years with my Kolbs.  Not recommending anyone else

 follow suit.

 

 john h

 mkIII

 Titus, Alabama

 

 

 

 

 --

lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 4:47 pm Post subject: High Thrust Line Question

I don't know for sure what gear box, but whatever, the location of the propeller shaft shouldn't change. Why don't you call Daryl at Warp and tell him what you have and what he recommends. John turned me on to him and he hasn't done me or anyone that I know of, wrong.Larry

On Mon, May 7, 2018 at 5:02 PM, Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kolb-List message posted by: Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)>

 

 On Mon, 5/7/18, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com (lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 

   I'm swinging a 66  inch Warp with the gear box in the down position.

 

 With the 3.47 to 1 gearbox????

 ====================================

 -List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

 ====================================

  FORUMS -

 eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 ====================================

 WIKI -

 errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com

 ====================================

 b Site -

           -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ====================================

 

 

 

 	




-- 

The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others.





If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending.

_________________
do not archive

victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.
Guest

Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 6:49 pm Post subject: High Thrust Line Question

With the propeller shaft in the SAME "down" position, the 3.47 gearbox I have will make the propeller turn at 1671 RPM at theax. coninuous power of 5800 engine RPM. At "cruise" RPM it will turn even slower. With the 2.58 gearbox that I suspect you have, your propeller will turn almost 2250 at 5800 engine RPM.



So with those numbers, in order to get the same thrust (and absorb the same 60 horsepower and torque from the HKS) I would need a whole lot more propeller blade area than you would need. Usually you can just put on a 4 blade prop or 5 blade, and that will do the trick. But with a Kolb you can't do it and still fold the wings.



Putting on a much wider chord propeller blade (a paddle prop that looks like a T-28 warbird) could work, but again in this case the prop blades would hit the rear of the wing when folded.



HKS says the gearbox will take almost $2000 to buy,  plus some special tools they would rent me, and however much time from a qualified mechanic familiar with these engines. Plus the use of a hydraulic shop press. That is not gonna work in my current situation, and so I briefly considered selling everything I had, engine, airframe, etc. and starting over with another option. But now I have myself calmed down a little and am not throwing wrenches across the shop cursing 



So before I do anything rash, I want to figure out whether the "up" position of the gearbox is a minor problem or a huge problem. I know that "down" is the preference, but that cannot happen because I have the wrong gearbox.



I will be HAPPY to call Warp Drive and ask them, he may have some magic wand that the other prop manufacturers don't have.



Bill Berle

www.ezflaphandle.com  - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft

www.grantstar.net           - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities



--------------------------------------------

On Mon, 5/7/18, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com> wrote:



 Subject: Re: High Thrust Line Question

 To: "kolb-list(at)matronics.com" <kolb-list(at)matronics.com>

 Date: Monday, May 7, 2018, 5:45 PM

 

 I don't know for

 sure what gear box, but whatever, the location of the

 propeller shaft shouldn't change. Why don't you call

 Daryl at Warp and tell him what you have and what he

 recommends. John turned me on to him and he hasn't done

 me or anyone that I know of,

 wrong.Larry

 On Mon, May 7, 2018 at

 5:02 PM, Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>

 wrote:

 

 Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>

 

 

 

 On Mon, 5/7/18, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com>

 wrote:

 

 

 

   I'm swinging a 66  inch Warp with the gear box in

 the down position.

 

 

 

 With the 3.47 to 1 gearbox????

 

 ==== ============================== ==

 

 -List" rel="noreferrer"

 target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/

 Navigator?Kolb-List

 

 ==== ============================== ==

 

  FORUMS -

 

 eferrer"

 target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 

 ==== ============================== ==

 

 WIKI -

 

 errer"

 target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com

 

 ==== ============================== ==

 

 b Site -

 

           -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 

 rel="noreferrer"

 target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/

 contribution

 

 ==== ============================== ==

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 -- 

 The

 older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are

 intolerant of others.

 If you forward this email, or any part of

 it, please remove my email address before sending.

George Alexander

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 245
Location: SW Florida

Posted: Tue May 08, 2018 4:39 am Post subject: Re: High Thrust Line Question

 	  victorbravo(at)sbcglobal. wrote: 	
		  S- N- I- P 



With the 3.47 gearbox I have, a three blade propeller with 62-64 inch diameter is not enough... the engine will overspeed before I get the full amount of thrust.



S- N- I- P 

Bill Berle

S- N- I- P 

	




MY FS II is equipped with R503 DCDI, a C Box 3.47 - 1, mounted in the "Up" position and swinging a 68", 3 blade Powerfin 'F' model prop.

In a couple of hundred hours, have encountered none of the problems you identified as potential ones.

FSII_ 031(sm).jpg

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George Alexander
FS II R503
E-LSA N709FS
http://www.oh2fly.net

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Tue May 08, 2018 5:09 am Post subject: High Thrust Line Question

Don't bother wasting your time calling Darryl. He'll tell you that the gearbox won't work, blah, blah, blah. Horse exhaust. He told me that the 4 to 1 gearbox I run with a 582 was all wrong. Funny thing though, when I had a 582 in the shop with a 2.57 gearbox I started swapping props between the two. I had to put about 20 minutes (yeah, 1/3 of a degree) more pitch on the 4 to 1 engine. Otherwise, performance was the same. For what it's worth, the R3350's of the B29 turned the prop at a bit over 900 rpm.Suggest you leave the gearbox in the up position and put the short side up on the front engine mount and put the rear mounts long side up.

Don't know if it will transfer from the Mk III but the lower prop rpm allows me to run a rudder trim tab that's about 1/3 the size of the factory recommended tab and the total deflection angle is only about 5 degrees. I need a tiny amount of right rudder on takeoff and a bit of left rudder in cruise.

As for running a four or five blade prop, I have run a three blade Warp and a four blade Power Fin on my HKS. No difference when set right. I even stripped the Power Fin back to two blades. It vibrated a bit more and made virtually no difference so I put the other two blades back in.

If you think your thrust line is high, look at the pics. Travis told me the factory set this engine up for the fourth owner of the PFH (plane from hell) who just had to have an "E" gearbox.

Your HKS will power your Firestar just fine, your prop will work just fine.

I set my HKS so that the prop tops out at 6000 rpm on climb out.

Rick

On Mon, May 7, 2018 at 9:46 PM, Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kolb-List message posted by: Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)>

 

 With the propeller shaft in the SAME "down" position, the 3.47 gearbox I have will make the propeller turn at 1671 RPM at theax. coninuous power of 5800 engine RPM. At "cruise" RPM it will turn even slower. With the 2.58 gearbox that I suspect you have, your propeller will turn almost 2250 at 5800 engine RPM.

 

 So with those numbers, in order to get the same thrust (and absorb the same 60 horsepower and torque from the HKS) I would need a whole lot more propeller blade area than you would need. Usually you can just put on a 4 blade prop or 5 blade, and that will do the trick. But with a Kolb you can't do it and still fold the wings.

 

 Putting on a much wider chord propeller blade (a paddle prop that looks like a T-28 warbird) could work, but again in this case the prop blades would hit the rear of the wing when folded.

 

 HKS says the gearbox will take almost $2000 to buy,  plus some special tools they would rent me, and however much time from a qualified mechanic familiar with these engines. Plus the use of a hydraulic shop press. That is not gonna work in my current situation, and so I briefly considered selling everything I had, engine, airframe, etc. and starting over with another option. But now I have myself calmed down a little and am not throwing wrenches across the shop cursing 

 

 So before I do anything rash, I want to figure out whether the "up" position of the gearbox is a minor problem or a huge problem. I know that "down" is the preference, but that cannot happen because I have the wrong gearbox.

 

 I will be HAPPY to call Warp Drive and ask them, he may have some magic wand that the other prop manufacturers don't have.

 

 Bill Berle

 www.ezflaphandle.com  - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft

 www.grantstar.net           - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities

 

 --------------------------------------------

 On Mon, 5/7/18, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com (lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 

  Subject: Re: High Thrust Line Question

  To: "kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)" <kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)>

  Date: Monday, May 7, 2018, 5:45 PM

  

  I don't know for

  sure what gear box, but whatever, the location of the

  propeller shaft shouldn't change. Why don't you call

  Daryl at Warp and tell him what you have and what he

  recommends. John turned me on to him and he hasn't done

  me or anyone that I know of,

  wrong.Larry

  On Mon, May 7, 2018 at

  5:02 PM, Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)>

  wrote:

  --> Kolb-List message posted by:

  Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)>

 

 

 

  On Mon, 5/7/18, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com (lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com)>

  wrote:

 

 

 

    I'm swinging a 66  inch Warp with the gear box in

  the down position.

 

 

 

  With the 3.47 to 1 gearbox????

 

  ==== ============================== ==

 

  -List" rel="noreferrer"

  target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/

  Navigator?Kolb-List

 

  ==== ============================== ==

 

   FORUMS -

 

  eferrer"

  target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 

  ==== ============================== ==

 

  WIKI -

 

  errer"

  target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com

 

  ==== ============================== ==

 

  b Site -

 

            -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 

  rel="noreferrer"

  target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/

  contribution

 

  ==== ============================== ==

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  -- 

  The

  older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are

  intolerant of others.

  If you forward this email, or any part of

  it, please remove my email address before sending.

 

 

 

 ============================

 -List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

 ====================================

  FORUMS -

 eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 ====================================

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 ====================================

 b Site -

           -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ====================================

 

 

 

 



	




-- 

“Blessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light.”   Groucho Marx

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rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Tue May 08, 2018 5:19 am Post subject: High Thrust Line Question

PS, the other benefit of lower prop rpm is that your airplane will be a whole lot more quiet. My neighbors told me they could hear the 2.57 gearbox engine all the way around the pattern, but the 4.00 gearbox was below hearing level when the plane was on downwind.



Rick

On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 8:08 AM, Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com (aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Don't bother wasting your time calling Darryl. He'll tell you that the gearbox won't work, blah, blah, blah. Horse exhaust. He told me that the 4 to 1 gearbox I run with a 582 was all wrong. Funny thing though, when I had a 582 in the shop with a 2.57 gearbox I started swapping props between the two. I had to put about 20 minutes (yeah, 1/3 of a degree) more pitch on the 4 to 1 engine. Otherwise, performance was the same. For what it's worth, the R3350's of the B29 turned the prop at a bit over 900 rpm.Suggest you leave the gearbox in the up position and put the short side up on the front engine mount and put the rear mounts long side up.

Don't know if it will transfer from the Mk III but the lower prop rpm allows me to run a rudder trim tab that's about 1/3 the size of the factory recommended tab and the total deflection angle is only about 5 degrees. I need a tiny amount of right rudder on takeoff and a bit of left rudder in cruise.

As for running a four or five blade prop, I have run a three blade Warp and a four blade Power Fin on my HKS. No difference when set right. I even stripped the Power Fin back to two blades. It vibrated a bit more and made virtually no difference so I put the other two blades back in.

If you think your thrust line is high, look at the pics. Travis told me the factory set this engine up for the fourth owner of the PFH (plane from hell) who just had to have an "E" gearbox.

Your HKS will power your Firestar just fine, your prop will work just fine.

I set my HKS so that the prop tops out at 6000 rpm on climb out.

Rick

On Mon, May 7, 2018 at 9:46 PM, Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kolb-List message posted by: Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)>

 

 With the propeller shaft in the SAME "down" position, the 3.47 gearbox I have will make the propeller turn at 1671 RPM at theax. coninuous power of 5800 engine RPM. At "cruise" RPM it will turn even slower. With the 2.58 gearbox that I suspect you have, your propeller will turn almost 2250 at 5800 engine RPM.

 

 So with those numbers, in order to get the same thrust (and absorb the same 60 horsepower and torque from the HKS) I would need a whole lot more propeller blade area than you would need. Usually you can just put on a 4 blade prop or 5 blade, and that will do the trick. But with a Kolb you can't do it and still fold the wings.

 

 Putting on a much wider chord propeller blade (a paddle prop that looks like a T-28 warbird) could work, but again in this case the prop blades would hit the rear of the wing when folded.

 

 HKS says the gearbox will take almost $2000 to buy,  plus some special tools they would rent me, and however much time from a qualified mechanic familiar with these engines. Plus the use of a hydraulic shop press. That is not gonna work in my current situation, and so I briefly considered selling everything I had, engine, airframe, etc. and starting over with another option. But now I have myself calmed down a little and am not throwing wrenches across the shop cursing 

 

 So before I do anything rash, I want to figure out whether the "up" position of the gearbox is a minor problem or a huge problem. I know that "down" is the preference, but that cannot happen because I have the wrong gearbox.

 

 I will be HAPPY to call Warp Drive and ask them, he may have some magic wand that the other prop manufacturers don't have.

 

 Bill Berle

 www.ezflaphandle.com  - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft

 www.grantstar.net           - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities

 

 --------------------------------------------

 On Mon, 5/7/18, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com (lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 

  Subject: Re: High Thrust Line Question

  To: "kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)" <kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)>

  Date: Monday, May 7, 2018, 5:45 PM

  

  I don't know for

  sure what gear box, but whatever, the location of the

  propeller shaft shouldn't change. Why don't you call

  Daryl at Warp and tell him what you have and what he

  recommends. John turned me on to him and he hasn't done

  me or anyone that I know of,

  wrong.Larry

  On Mon, May 7, 2018 at

  5:02 PM, Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)>

  wrote:

  --> Kolb-List message posted by:

  Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)>

 

 

 

  On Mon, 5/7/18, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com (lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com)>

  wrote:

 

 

 

    I'm swinging a 66  inch Warp with the gear box in

  the down position.

 

 

 

  With the 3.47 to 1 gearbox????

 

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_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Tue May 08, 2018 3:38 pm Post subject: Re: High Thrust Line Question

Bill; notice the extent to which Rick raised his engine. (Great pictures) Maybe you can leave the gearbox down and raise the engine up?

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.
Guest

Posted: Tue May 08, 2018 7:09 pm Post subject: High Thrust Line Question

Everybody THANK YOU for taking time for this discussion.



I spoke to the Kolb factory today by phone, and went out to the local UL flying field to see an HKS engine run.



Duane and Bryan at Kolb were asked one specific question by me:  What is the maximum number of inches allowable or advisable between the center of the propeller and the top of the tailboom?



Bryan said that 36 inches is about standard for a "normal" Firestar, and he would not want to fly an airplane with that distance raised to 39 or 40 inches.



I went back to my hangar and measured, and the distance on my Firestar would be over 40 or 41 inches if I turned the gearbox upward. So if the Kolb factory owner says 40 inches is too high, I can only be humble and assume that I wouldn't want to fly it at 40 inches either. If any of the highly experienced Kolbers on this forum are flying with their thrust line 40 inches above the tailboom, I REALLY would like to know about it pronto.



As big of an ego as I have had a few times in my life, and as much as I think of myself as a reasonably  skilled pilot, I don't need to be a test pilot here and try to push any envelope at this early stage. So if I can ask the Kolb ilst a favor... if any of you are flying a Firestar with the engine thrust line 39 or 40 or 41 incvhes above the tailboom please post this on the list and let me know ifyou have any issues with the handling, pitch-over, etc.



Bill Berle

www.ezflaphandle.com  - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft

www.grantstar.net           - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities



--------------------------------------------

On Tue, 5/8/18, Richard Pike <thegreybaron(at)charter.net> wrote:



 Subject: Re: High Thrust Line Question

 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Tuesday, May 8, 2018, 4:38 PM

 

 

 Pike" <thegreybaron(at)charter.net>

 

 Bill; notice the extent to which Rick

 raised his engine. (Great pictures) Maybe you can leave the

 gearbox down and raise the engine up?

 

 --------

 Richard Pike

 Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

 Kingsport, TN 3TN0

 

 Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is

 wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=479963#479963

 

 

 

 

 

 

 The Kolb-List Email Forum -

 Navigator to browse

 List Un/Subscription,

 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,

      - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -

 via the Web Forums!

     - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -

 Email List Wiki!

    - List Contribution Web Site -

 support!

                

     -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue May 08, 2018 7:22 pm Post subject: High Thrust Line Question

I am certainly not an aeronautical engineer by any means, but I realize that the higher the thrust line the more power it takes to fly.  That long arm/lever is doing a good job of pushing the nose down, the elevators are working hard to keep the nose up, and that all takes power.  Eventually the high thrust line would probably consume the aircraft.



I mentioned a day or so ago a major difference from flying my mkIII with an 80 hp and then making my first takeoff with the 100 hp.  It wouldn't break ground until I came back on the power.  In a short time muscle memory took care of that little problem, but it was a good demonstration to me how much a high thrust line  consumes power.



Some things work and some don't.



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama





--

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

gdhelton(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed May 09, 2018 8:41 am Post subject: High Thrust Line Question

Well Bill, thanks for bringing up the topic. I replaced my little Rotax 377 with new low rpm Hirth 2702 over the winter. I really hadn’t measured the distance between the prop hub and boom tube. You sparked my interest so I stopped by my hanger this morning to check it out. The Hirth uses a G50 gearbox with 2:29 to 1 ratio. which translates to 2400 rpm prop speed (at) the engine’s max. HP rpm of 5500rpm. 

Anyway, it measures 35.5 inches. This is on a Kolb original Firestar. I did have to move the engine forward 2.625” to compensate for the extra weight of the new gear box. I went with a 64” 3 blade Powerfin prop set at 6.4 degrees of pitch. This setup gives me 3.5” of clearance from the boom tube. Thanks for inspiring me to check it out.  I’m sure there is a good combination of prop out there for an HKS. 

George Helton 

1986 Firestar, FS100

14GDH

Mesick, Michigan 

gdhelton(at)gmail.com



Sent from my iPhone



 	  Quote: 	
		   On May 8, 2018, at 11:08 PM, Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net> wrote:

 

 

 

 Everybody THANK YOU for taking time for this discussion.

 

 I spoke to the Kolb factory today by phone, and went out to the local UL flying field to see an HKS engine run.

 

 Duane and Bryan at Kolb were asked one specific question by me:  What is the maximum number of inches allowable or advisable between the center of the propeller and the top of the tailboom?

 

 Bryan said that 36 inches is about standard for a "normal" Firestar, and he would not want to fly an airplane with that distance raised to 39 or 40 inches.

 

 I went back to my hangar and measured, and the distance on my Firestar would be over 40 or 41 inches if I turned the gearbox upward. So if the Kolb factory owner says 40 inches is too high, I can only be humble and assume that I wouldn't want to fly it at 40 inches either. If any of the highly experienced Kolbers on this forum are flying with their thrust line 40 inches above the tailboom, I REALLY would like to know about it pronto.

 

 As big of an ego as I have had a few times in my life, and as much as I think of myself as a reasonably  skilled pilot, I don't need to be a test pilot here and try to push any envelope at this early stage. So if I can ask the Kolb ilst a favor... if any of you are flying a Firestar with the engine thrust line 39 or 40 or 41 incvhes above the tailboom please post this on the list and let me know ifyou have any issues with the handling, pitch-over, etc.

 

 Bill Berle

 www.ezflaphandle.com  - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft

 www.grantstar.net           - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities

 

 --------------------------------------------

 On Tue, 5/8/18, Richard Pike <thegreybaron(at)charter.net> wrote:

 

 Subject: Re: High Thrust Line Question

 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Tuesday, May 8, 2018, 4:38 PM

 

 

 Pike" <thegreybaron(at)charter.net>

 

 Bill; notice the extent to which Rick

 raised his engine. (Great pictures) Maybe you can leave the

 gearbox down and raise the engine up?

 

 --------

 Richard Pike

 Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

 Kingsport, TN 3TN0

 

 Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is

 wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=479963#479963

 

 

 

 

 

 

 The Kolb-List Email Forum -

 Navigator to browse

 List Un/Subscription,

 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,

      - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -

 via the Web Forums!

     - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -

 Email List Wiki!

    - List Contribution Web Site -

 support!

                

     -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed May 09, 2018 10:17 am Post subject: High Thrust Line Question

3.5" is about 2.5" to much.  1" clearance operating with stand Lord Mounts is more than adequate clearance.  I flew with a 72" prop and .75" clearance for many hours, including my last 48 day flight to Alaska and back.  Prop might be noisier with the tips passing that close to the tail boom, but I'll take the lower thrust line over noise.



I'm flying with a 68" prop that gives me 2.75" of clearance.  Can't tell the difference in noise level.  It is still noisy.



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama





--

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.
Guest

Posted: Wed May 09, 2018 10:19 am Post subject: High Thrust Line Question

I have been pulling out what's left of my hair over this issue. I really don't want to quit, I LIKE the Kolb airframe and it will fit my mission well. I like the HKS fuel economy and improved reliability. I just wound up with the wrong gearbox on it and cannot afford to change it.

What I have learned thus far is:

1) My 3.47 to 1 gearbox really wants to swing a larger propeller than what is actually  "correct" for the height of the thrust line on the Kolb airframe.

2) Turning the gearbox upwards will solve the prop diameter problem, but it creates a thrust line that is higher than the Kolb factory thinks is advisable.

3) I could easily go to a 4 or 5 blade propeller, solves the gearbox AND thrust line problems, but that interferes with folding the wings.

I have considered many possible solutions or "work-arounds" :

1) Get a 5 blade propeller and remove it after every flight, which would allow ALL of the problems to be solved, at the cost of additional time and effort every time I fly. This will cost the least of all the "solutions".

2) Remove the wings after every flight instead of folding the wings. This allows a 5 blade propeller to be used but adds complexity and requires me to build a complicated ground fixture to allow the wings to be removed and installed by myself alone.

3) Make a folding propeller, like the electric R/C model gliders have, where the blades fold rearward. This solves all of the problems, no complex ground equipment, but designing and manufacturing such a propeller will be prohibitvely expensive.

4) Buy another gearbox from HKS. This is the best solution mechanically, but I cannot afford it.

5) Turn the gearbox upwards, install the right propeller, and live with the possibly dangerous or funky flight handling of the airplane.

Any other/better/wiser/workable ideas from the Kolb List are very very welcome!

Bill Berle

www.ezflaphandle.com  - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft

www.grantstar.net           - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities

--------------------------------------------

On Wed, 5/9/18, George Helton <gdhelton(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 Subject: Re: Re: High Thrust Line Question

 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Wednesday, May 9, 2018, 9:39 AM

 Helton <gdhelton(at)gmail.com>

 Well Bill, thanks for bringing up the

 topic. I replaced my little Rotax 377 with new low rpm Hirth

 2702 over the winter. I really hadn’t measured the

 distance between the prop hub and boom tube. You sparked my

 interest so I stopped by my hanger this morning to check it

 out. The Hirth uses a G50 gearbox with 2:29 to 1 ratio.

 which translates to 2400 rpm prop speed (at) the engine’s

 max. HP rpm of 5500rpm. 

 Anyway, it measures 35.5 inches. This

 is on a Kolb original Firestar. I did have to move the

 engine forward 2.625” to compensate for the extra weight

 of the new gear box. I went with a 64” 3 blade Powerfin

 prop set at 6.4 degrees of pitch. This setup gives me 3.5”

 of clearance from the boom tube. Thanks for inspiring me to

 check it out.  I’m sure there is a good combination

 of prop out there for an HKS. 

 George Helton 

 1986 Firestar, FS100

 14GDH

 Mesick, Michigan 

 gdhelton(at)gmail.com

 Sent from my iPhone

 > On May 8, 2018, at 11:08 PM, Bill

 Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>

 wrote:

 > 

 > --> Kolb-List message posted

 by: Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>

 > 

 > Everybody THANK YOU for taking

 time for this discussion.

 > 

 > I spoke to the Kolb factory today

 by phone, and went out to the local UL flying field to see

 an HKS engine run.

 > 

 > Duane and Bryan at Kolb were asked

 one specific question by me:  What is the maximum

 number of inches allowable or advisable between the center

 of the propeller and the top of the tailboom?

 > 

 > Bryan said that 36 inches is about

 standard for a "normal" Firestar, and he would not want to

 fly an airplane with that distance raised to 39 or 40

 inches.

 > 

 > I went back to my hangar and

 measured, and the distance on my Firestar would be over 40

 or 41 inches if I turned the gearbox upward. So if the Kolb

 factory owner says 40 inches is too high, I can only be

 humble and assume that I wouldn't want to fly it at 40

 inches either. If any of the highly experienced Kolbers on

 this forum are flying with their thrust line 40 inches above

 the tailboom, I REALLY would like to know about it pronto.

 > 

 > As big of an ego as I have had a

 few times in my life, and as much as I think of myself as a

 reasonably  skilled pilot, I don't need to be a test

 pilot here and try to push any envelope at this early stage.

 So if I can ask the Kolb ilst a favor... if any of you are

 flying a Firestar with the engine thrust line 39 or 40 or 41

 incvhes above the tailboom please post this on the list and

 let me know ifyou have any issues with the handling,

 pitch-over, etc.

 > 

 > Bill Berle

 > www.ezflaphandle.com  -

 safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft

 > www.grantstar.net   

        - winning proposals for non-profit and

 for-profit entities

 > 

 >

 --------------------------------------------

 > On Tue, 5/8/18, Richard Pike

 <thegreybaron(at)charter.net>

 wrote:

 > 

 > Subject: Re: High

 Thrust Line Question

 > To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

 > Date: Tuesday, May 8, 2018, 4:38

 PM

 > 

 > --> Kolb-List message posted

 by: "Richard

 > Pike" <thegreybaron(at)charter.net>

 > 

 > Bill; notice the extent to which

 Rick

 > raised his engine. (Great

 pictures) Maybe you can leave the

 > gearbox down and raise the engine

 up?

 > 

 > --------

 > Richard Pike

 > Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

 > Kingsport, TN 3TN0

 > 

 > Forgiving is tough, being forgiven

 is

 > wonderful, and God's grace really

 is amazing.

 > 

 > 

 > 

 > 

 > Read this topic online here:

 > 

 > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=479963#479963

 > 

 > 

 > 

 > 

 > 

 > 

 > The Kolb-List Email Forum -

 > Navigator to browse

 > List Un/Subscription,

 > 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,

 >      - MATRONICS

 WEB FORUMS -

 > via the Web Forums!

 >     - NEW MATRONICS LIST

 WIKI -

 > Email List Wiki!

 >    - List Contribution

 Web Site -

 > support!

 >         

 >     -Matt Dralle, List

 Admin.

 > 

 > 

 > 

 > 

 > 

 > 

 > 

 > 

 The Kolb-List Email Forum -

 Navigator to browse

 List Un/Subscription,

 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,

      - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -

 via the Web Forums!

     - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -

 Email List Wiki!

    - List Contribution Web Site -

 support!

     -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

gdhelton(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed May 09, 2018 10:38 am Post subject: High Thrust Line Question

Bill, I know that this might sound crazy but, can’t you just buy a different set of gears for the gearbox? Being a mechanic may be a benefit here but I can’t imagine that HKS can’t supply replacement parts. The gearbox case doesn’t care what gears fit inside of it. 

If they don’t, I’d sure shy away from buying one.

George Helton 

1986 Firestar, FS100

14GDH

Mesick, Michigan 

gdhelton(at)gmail.com

Sent from my iPhone

 	  Quote: 	
		   On May 9, 2018, at 2:18 PM, Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net> wrote:

 I have been pulling out what's left of my hair over this issue. I really don't want to quit, I LIKE the Kolb airframe and it will fit my mission well. I like the HKS fuel economy and improved reliability. I just wound up with the wrong gearbox on it and cannot afford to change it.

 What I have learned thus far is:

 1) My 3.47 to 1 gearbox really wants to swing a larger propeller than what is actually  "correct" for the height of the thrust line on the Kolb airframe.

 2) Turning the gearbox upwards will solve the prop diameter problem, but it creates a thrust line that is higher than the Kolb factory thinks is advisable.

 3) I could easily go to a 4 or 5 blade propeller, solves the gearbox AND thrust line problems, but that interferes with folding the wings.

 I have considered many possible solutions or "work-arounds" :

 1) Get a 5 blade propeller and remove it after every flight, which would allow ALL of the problems to be solved, at the cost of additional time and effort every time I fly. This will cost the least of all the "solutions".

 2) Remove the wings after every flight instead of folding the wings. This allows a 5 blade propeller to be used but adds complexity and requires me to build a complicated ground fixture to allow the wings to be removed and installed by myself alone.

 3) Make a folding propeller, like the electric R/C model gliders have, where the blades fold rearward. This solves all of the problems, no complex ground equipment, but designing and manufacturing such a propeller will be prohibitvely expensive.

 4) Buy another gearbox from HKS. This is the best solution mechanically, but I cannot afford it.

 5) Turn the gearbox upwards, install the right propeller, and live with the possibly dangerous or funky flight handling of the airplane.

 Any other/better/wiser/workable ideas from the Kolb List are very very welcome!

 Bill Berle

 www.ezflaphandle.com  - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft

 www.grantstar.net           - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities

 --------------------------------------------

 On Wed, 5/9/18, George Helton <gdhelton(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 Subject: Re: Re: High Thrust Line Question

 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Wednesday, May 9, 2018, 9:39 AM

 Helton <gdhelton(at)gmail.com>

 Well Bill, thanks for bringing up the

 topic. I replaced my little Rotax 377 with new low rpm Hirth

 2702 over the winter. I really hadn’t measured the

 distance between the prop hub and boom tube. You sparked my

 interest so I stopped by my hanger this morning to check it

 out. The Hirth uses a G50 gearbox with 2:29 to 1 ratio.

 which translates to 2400 rpm prop speed (at) the engine’s

 max. HP rpm of 5500rpm. 

 Anyway, it measures 35.5 inches. This

 is on a Kolb original Firestar. I did have to move the

 engine forward 2.625” to compensate for the extra weight

 of the new gear box. I went with a 64” 3 blade Powerfin

 prop set at 6.4 degrees of pitch. This setup gives me 3.5”

 of clearance from the boom tube. Thanks for inspiring me to

 check it out.  I’m sure there is a good combination

 of prop out there for an HKS. 

 George Helton 

 1986 Firestar, FS100

 14GDH

 Mesick, Michigan 

 gdhelton(at)gmail.com

 Sent from my iPhone

> On May 8, 2018, at 11:08 PM, Bill

 Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>

 wrote:

> 

> --> Kolb-List message posted

 by: Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>

> 

> Everybody THANK YOU for taking

 time for this discussion.

> 

> I spoke to the Kolb factory today

 by phone, and went out to the local UL flying field to see

 an HKS engine run.

> 

> Duane and Bryan at Kolb were asked

 one specific question by me:  What is the maximum

 number of inches allowable or advisable between the center

 of the propeller and the top of the tailboom?

> 

> Bryan said that 36 inches is about

 standard for a "normal" Firestar, and he would not want to

 fly an airplane with that distance raised to 39 or 40

 inches.

> 

> I went back to my hangar and

 measured, and the distance on my Firestar would be over 40

 or 41 inches if I turned the gearbox upward. So if the Kolb

 factory owner says 40 inches is too high, I can only be

 humble and assume that I wouldn't want to fly it at 40

 inches either. If any of the highly experienced Kolbers on

 this forum are flying with their thrust line 40 inches above

 the tailboom, I REALLY would like to know about it pronto.

> 

> As big of an ego as I have had a

 few times in my life, and as much as I think of myself as a

 reasonably  skilled pilot, I don't need to be a test

 pilot here and try to push any envelope at this early stage.

 So if I can ask the Kolb ilst a favor... if any of you are

 flying a Firestar with the engine thrust line 39 or 40 or 41

 incvhes above the tailboom please post this on the list and

 let me know ifyou have any issues with the handling,

 pitch-over, etc.

> 

> Bill Berle

> www.ezflaphandle.com  -

 safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft

> www.grantstar.net   

        - winning proposals for non-profit and

 for-profit entities

> 

> 

 --------------------------------------------

> On Tue, 5/8/18, Richard Pike

 <thegreybaron(at)charter.net>

 wrote:

> 

> Subject: Re: High

 Thrust Line Question

> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

> Date: Tuesday, May 8, 2018, 4:38

 PM

> 

> --> Kolb-List message posted

 by: "Richard

> Pike" <thegreybaron(at)charter.net>

> 

> Bill; notice the extent to which

 Rick

> raised his engine. (Great

 pictures) Maybe you can leave the

> gearbox down and raise the engine

 up?

> 

> --------

> Richard Pike

> Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

> Kingsport, TN 3TN0

> 

> Forgiving is tough, being forgiven

 is

> wonderful, and God's grace really

 is amazing.

> 

> 

> 

> 

> Read this topic online here:

> 

> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=479963#479963

> 

> 

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victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.
Guest

Posted: Wed May 09, 2018 11:56 am Post subject: High Thrust Line Question

The replacement gear set does not fit into the same gearbox case. So  unfortunately I cannot just buy two new gears and slide them into place.



BUT... I am making progress towards one of the other potential solutions. After consulting with an experienced aircraft structures and metallurgy engineer, I believe I can make a simple prop extension that is held on with one central nut (a great big nut !) and remove the propeller before folding the wings.



The key to doing this SAFELY is called the Belleville Spring, or Belleville Washer. It is a conical spring steel washer that becomes flat (like a regular washer) as it is tightened, providing a known, reliable tension/compression force over a reasonable range of installation torques.



This means that I can install the propeller, tighten the nut until the Belleville Washer is more or less flat, and be confident that there is plenty of tension/compression in the propeller mounting without having to use a torque wrench, elaborate bolt stretch charts, etc. etc. This also provides a much more convenient and error-proof option instead of havign to torque six propeller bolts and safety wire the bolts, install six Cotter Pins, etc.



All of this means I will be hopefully able to use a 4, 5, or 6 blade prop with the thrust line within Kolb's recommended distance from the tailboom.



The only downside is that Kolbers around the world will never stop making fun of me for turning a simple airplane into a major engineering project 



The HKS engine is a VERY good quality engine and I believe the other Kolb/HKS owners will agree they love the engine. If you wish to use this engine on a Kolb, don't hold my mis-adventures against the engine... just make darn sure you get the 2.58 gearbox !



Bill Berle

www.ezflaphandle.com  - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft

www.grantstar.net           - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities



--------------------------------------------

On Wed, 5/9/18, George Helton <gdhelton(at)gmail.com> wrote:



 Subject: Re: Re: High Thrust Line Question

 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Wednesday, May 9, 2018, 11:37 AM

 

 

 Helton <gdhelton(at)gmail.com>

 

 Bill, I know that this might sound

 crazy but, can’t you just buy a different set of gears for

 the gearbox? Being a mechanic may be a benefit here but I

 can’t imagine that HKS can’t supply replacement parts.

 The gearbox case doesn’t care what gears fit inside of it.

 

 If they don’t, I’d sure shy away

 from buying one.

 George Helton 

 1986 Firestar, FS100

 14GDH

 Mesick, Michigan 

 gdhelton(at)gmail.com

 

 Sent from my iPhone

 

 > On May 9, 2018, at 2:18 PM, Bill

 Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>

 wrote:

 > 

 > --> Kolb-List message posted

 by: Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>

 > 

 > I have been pulling out what's

 left of my hair over this issue. I really don't want to

 quit, I LIKE the Kolb airframe and it will fit my mission

 well. I like the HKS fuel economy and improved reliability.

 I just wound up with the wrong gearbox on it and cannot

 afford to change it.

 > 

 > What I have learned thus far is:

 > 

 > 1) My 3.47 to 1 gearbox really

 wants to swing a larger propeller than what is

 actually  "correct" for the height of the thrust line

 on the Kolb airframe.

 > 

 > 2) Turning the gearbox upwards

 will solve the prop diameter problem, but it creates a

 thrust line that is higher than the Kolb factory thinks is

 advisable.

 > 

 > 3) I could easily go to a 4 or 5

 blade propeller, solves the gearbox AND thrust line

 problems, but that interferes with folding the wings.

 > 

 > I have considered many possible

 solutions or "work-arounds" :

 > 

 > 1) Get a 5 blade propeller and

 remove it after every flight, which would allow ALL of the

 problems to be solved, at the cost of additional time and

 effort every time I fly. This will cost the least of all the

 "solutions".

 > 

 > 2) Remove the wings after every

 flight instead of folding the wings. This allows a 5 blade

 propeller to be used but adds complexity and requires me to

 build a complicated ground fixture to allow the wings to be

 removed and installed by myself alone.

 > 

 > 3) Make a folding propeller, like

 the electric R/C model gliders have, where the blades fold

 rearward. This solves all of the problems, no complex ground

 equipment, but designing and manufacturing such a propeller

 will be prohibitvely expensive.

 > 

 > 4) Buy another gearbox from HKS.

 This is the best solution mechanically, but I cannot afford

 it.

 > 

 > 5) Turn the gearbox upwards,

 install the right propeller, and live with the possibly

 dangerous or funky flight handling of the airplane.

 > 

 > Any other/better/wiser/workable

 ideas from the Kolb List are very very welcome!

 > 

 > 

 > 

 > 

 > Bill Berle

 > www.ezflaphandle.com  -

 safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft

 > www.grantstar.net   

        - winning proposals for non-profit and

 for-profit entities

 > 

 >

 --------------------------------------------

 > On Wed, 5/9/18, George Helton

 <gdhelton(at)gmail.com>

 wrote:

 > 

 > Subject: Re: Re: High

 Thrust Line Question

 > To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

 > Date: Wednesday, May 9, 2018, 9:39

 AM

 > 

 > --> Kolb-List message posted

 by: George

 > Helton <gdhelton(at)gmail.com>

 > 

 > Well Bill, thanks for bringing up

 the

 > topic. I replaced my little Rotax

 377 with new low rpm Hirth

 > 2702 over the winter. I really

 hadn’t measured the

 > distance between the prop hub and

 boom tube. You sparked my

 > interest so I stopped by my hanger

 this morning to check it

 > out. The Hirth uses a G50 gearbox

 with 2:29 to 1 ratio.

 > which translates to 2400 rpm prop

 speed (at) the engine’s

 > max. HP rpm of 5500rpm. 

 > Anyway, it measures 35.5 inches.

 This

 > is on a Kolb original Firestar. I

 did have to move the

 > engine forward 2.625” to

 compensate for the extra weight

 > of the new gear box. I went with a

 64” 3 blade Powerfin

 > prop set at 6.4 degrees of pitch.

 This setup gives me 3.5”

 > of clearance from the boom tube.

 Thanks for inspiring me to

 > check it out.  I’m sure

 there is a good combination

 > of prop out there for an HKS. 

 > George Helton 

 > 1986 Firestar, FS100

 > 14GDH

 > Mesick, Michigan 

 > gdhelton(at)gmail.com

 > 

 > Sent from my iPhone

 > 

 >> On May 8, 2018, at 11:08 PM,

 Bill

 > Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>

 > wrote:

 >> 

 >> --> Kolb-List message

 posted

 > by: Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>

 >> 

 >> Everybody THANK YOU for

 taking

 > time for this discussion.

 >> 

 >> I spoke to the Kolb factory

 today

 > by phone, and went out to the

 local UL flying field to see

 > an HKS engine run.

 >> 

 >> Duane and Bryan at Kolb were

 asked

 > one specific question by me: 

 What is the maximum

 > number of inches allowable or

 advisable between the center

 > of the propeller and the top of

 the tailboom?

 >> 

 >> Bryan said that 36 inches is

 about

 > standard for a "normal" Firestar,

 and he would not want to

 > fly an airplane with that distance

 raised to 39 or 40

 > inches.

 >> 

 >> I went back to my hangar and

 > measured, and the distance on my

 Firestar would be over 40

 > or 41 inches if I turned the

 gearbox upward. So if the Kolb

 > factory owner says 40 inches is

 too high, I can only be

 > humble and assume that I wouldn't

 want to fly it at 40

 > inches either. If any of the

 highly experienced Kolbers on

 > this forum are flying with their

 thrust line 40 inches above

 > the tailboom, I REALLY would like

 to know about it pronto.

 >> 

 >> As big of an ego as I have had

 a

 > few times in my life, and as much

 as I think of myself as a

 > reasonably  skilled pilot, I

 don't need to be a test

 > pilot here and try to push any

 envelope at this early stage.

 > So if I can ask the Kolb ilst a

 favor... if any of you are

 > flying a Firestar with the engine

 thrust line 39 or 40 or 41

 > incvhes above the tailboom please

 post this on the list and

 > let me know ifyou have any issues

 with the handling,

 > pitch-over, etc.

 >> 

 >> Bill Berle

 >> www.ezflaphandle.com  -

 > safety & performance upgrade

 for light aircraft

 >> www.grantstar.net   

 >        -

 winning proposals for non-profit and

 > for-profit entities

 >> 

 >> 

 >

 --------------------------------------------

 >> On Tue, 5/8/18, Richard Pike

 > <thegreybaron(at)charter.net>

 > wrote:

 >> 

 >> Subject: Re: High

 > Thrust Line Question

 >> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

 >> Date: Tuesday, May 8, 2018,

 4:38

 > PM

 >> 

 >> --> Kolb-List message

 posted

 > by: "Richard

 >> Pike" <thegreybaron(at)charter.net>

 >> 

 >> Bill; notice the extent to

 which

 > Rick

 >> raised his engine. (Great

 > pictures) Maybe you can leave the

 >> gearbox down and raise the

 engine

 > up?

 >> 

 >> --------

 >> Richard Pike

 >> Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

 >> Kingsport, TN 3TN0

 >> 

 >> Forgiving is tough, being

 forgiven

 > is

 >> wonderful, and God's grace

 really

 > is amazing.

 >> 

 >> 

 >> 

 >> 

 >> Read this topic online here:

 >> 

 >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=479963#479963

 >> 

 >> 

 >> 

 >> 

 >> 

 >> 

 >> The Kolb-List Email Forum -

 >> Navigator to browse

 >> List Un/Subscription,

 >> 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,

 >>       -

 MATRONICS

 > WEB FORUMS -

 >> via the Web Forums!

 >>      - NEW

 MATRONICS LIST

 > WIKI -

 >> Email List Wiki!

 >>     - List

 Contribution

 > Web Site -

 >> support!

 >>       

   

 >       

 >>      -Matt

 Dralle, List

 > Admin.

 >> 

 >> 

 >> 

 >> 

 >> 

 >> 

 >> 

 >> 

 > 

 > The Kolb-List Email Forum -

 > Navigator to browse

 > List Un/Subscription,

 > 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,

 >      - MATRONICS

 WEB FORUMS -

 > via the Web Forums!

 >     - NEW MATRONICS LIST

 WIKI -

 > Email List Wiki!

 >    - List Contribution

 Web Site -

 > support!

 >         

       

 >     -Matt Dralle, List

 Admin.

 > 

 > 

 > 

 > 

 > 

 > 

 > 

 > 

 

 The Kolb-List Email Forum -

 Navigator to browse

 List Un/Subscription,

 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,

      - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -

 via the Web Forums!

     - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -

 Email List Wiki!

    - List Contribution Web Site -

 support!

                

     -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

Jack B Hart

Joined: 22 Feb 2018
Posts: 11
Location: Winchester, IN

Posted: Wed May 09, 2018 12:32 pm Post subject: High Thrust Line Question

Bill,

   

  If you are worried about the effects of a high thrust line, you may want to consider adding some area to your horizontal stabilizer.  This should reduce some of the increased stick forces and tail work load.

   

  Jack B. Hart FF004

  Winchester, IN

   

   

   

   From: "Bill Berle" <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net> Sent: Wednesday, May 9, 2018 3:58 PM To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: Re: High Thrust Line Question   

 --> Kolb-List message posted by: Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>  The replacement gear set does not fit into the same gearbox case. So unfortunately I cannot just buy two new gears and slide them into place.  BUT... I am making progress towards one of the other potential solutions. After consulting with an experienced aircraft structures and metallurgy engineer, I believe I can make a simple prop extension that is held on with one central nut (a great big nut !) and remove the propeller before folding the wings.  The key to doing this SAFELY is called the Belleville Spring, or Belleville Washer. It is a conical spring steel washer that becomes flat (like a regular washer) as it is tightened, providing a known, reliable tension/compression force over a reasonable range of installation torques.  This means that I can install the propeller, tighten the nut until the Belleville Washer is more or less flat, and be confident that there is plenty of tension/compression in the propeller mounting without having to use a torque wrench, elaborate bolt stretch charts, etc. etc. This also provides a much more convenient and error-proof option instead of havign to torque six propeller bolts and safety wire the bolts, install six Cotter Pins, etc.  All of this means I will be hopefully able to use a 4, 5, or 6 blade prop with the thrust line within Kolb's recommended distance from the tailboom.  The only downside is that Kolbers around the world will never stop making fun of me for turning a simple airplane into a major engineering project   The HKS engine is a VERY good quality engine and I believe the other Kolb/HKS owners will agree they love the engine. If you wish to use this engine on a Kolb, don't hold my mis-adventures against the engine... just make darn sure you get the 2.58 gearbox !  Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com  - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net           - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities  -------------------------------------------- On Wed, 5/9/18, George Helton <gdhelton(at)gmail.com> wrote:  Subject: Re: Re: High Thrust Line Question To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com Date: Wednesday, May 9, 2018, 11:37 AM  --> Kolb-List message posted by: George Helton <gdhelton(at)gmail.com>  Bill, I know that this might sound crazy but, can&rsquo;t you just buy a different set of gears for the gearbox? Being a mechanic may be a benefit here but I can&rsquo;t imagine that HKS can&rsquo;t supply replacement parts. The gearbox case doesn&rsquo;t care what gears fit inside of it.  If they don&rsquo;t, I&rsquo;d sure shy away from buying one. George Helton 1986 Firestar, FS100 14GDH Mesick, Michigan gdhelton(at)gmail.com  Sent from my iPhone  > On May 9, 2018, at 2:18 PM, Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net> wrote: > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net> > > I have been pulling out what's left of my hair over this issue. I really don't want to quit, I LIKE the Kolb airframe and it will fit my mission well. I like the HKS fuel economy and improved reliability. I just wound up with the wrong gearbox on it and cannot afford to change it. > > What I have learned thus far is: > > 1) My 3.47 to 1 gearbox really wants to swing a larger propeller than what is actually  "correct" for the height of the thrust line on the Kolb airframe. > > 2) Turning the gearbox upwards will solve the prop diameter problem, but it creates a thrust line that is higher than the Kolb factory thinks is advisable. > > 3) I could easily go to a 4 or 5 blade propeller, solves the gearbox AND thrust line problems, but that interferes with folding the wings. > > I have considered many possible solutions or "work-arounds" : > > 1) Get a 5 blade propeller and remove it after every flight, which would allow ALL of the problems to be solved, at the cost of additional time and effort every time I fly. This will cost the least of all the "solutions". > > 2) Remove the wings after every flight instead of folding the wings. This allows a 5 blade propeller to be used but adds complexity and requires me to build a complicated ground fixture to allow the wings to be removed and installed by myself alone. > > 3) Make a folding propeller, like the electric R/C model gliders have, where the blades fold rearward. This solves all of the problems, no complex ground equipment, but designing and manufacturing such a propeller will be prohibitvely expensive. > > 4) Buy another gearbox from HKS. This is the best solution mechanically, but I cannot afford it. > > 5) Turn the gearbox upwards, install the right propeller, and live with the possibly dangerous or funky flight handling of the airplane. > > Any other/better/wiser/workable ideas from the Kolb List are very very welcome! > > > > > Bill Berle > www.ezflaphandle.com  - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > www.grantstar.net          - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities > > -------------------------------------------- > On Wed, 5/9/18, George Helton <gdhelton(at)gmail.com> wrote: > > Subject: Re: Re: High Thrust Line Question > To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com > Date: Wednesday, May 9, 2018, 9:39 AM > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: George > Helton <gdhelton(at)gmail.com> > > Well Bill, thanks for bringing up the > topic. I replaced my little Rotax 377 with new low rpm Hirth > 2702 over the winter. I really hadn&rsquo;t measured the > distance between the prop hub and boom tube. You sparked my > interest so I stopped by my hanger this morning to check it > out. The Hirth uses a G50 gearbox with 2:29 to 1 ratio. > which translates to 2400 rpm prop speed (at) the engine&rsquo;s > max. HP rpm of 5500rpm. > Anyway, it measures 35.5 inches. This > is on a Kolb original Firestar. I did have to move the > engine forward 2.625&rdquo; to compensate for the extra weight > of the new gear box. I went with a 64&rdquo; 3 blade Powerfin > prop set at 6.4 degrees of pitch. This setup gives me 3.5&rdquo; > of clearance from the boom tube. Thanks for inspiring me to > check it out.  I&rsquo;m sure there is a good combination > of prop out there for an HKS. > George Helton > 1986 Firestar, FS100 > 14GDH > Mesick, Michigan > gdhelton(at)gmail.com > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On May 8, 2018, at 11:08 PM, Bill > Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net> > wrote: >> >> --> Kolb-List message posted > by: Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net> >> >> Everybody THANK YOU for taking > time for this discussion. >> >> I spoke to the Kolb factory today > by phone, and went out to the local UL flying field to see > an HKS engine run. >> >> Duane and Bryan at Kolb were asked > one specific question by me:  What is the maximum > number of inches allowable or advisable between the center > of the propeller and the top of the tailboom? >> >> Bryan said that 36 inches is about > standard for a "normal" Firestar, and he would not want to > fly an airplane with that distance raised to 39 or 40 > inches. >> >> I went back to my hangar and > measured, and the distance on my Firestar would be over 40 > or 41 inches if I turned the gearbox upward. So if the Kolb > factory owner says 40 inches is too high, I can only be > humble and assume that I wouldn't want to fly it at 40 > inches either. If any of the highly experienced Kolbers on > this forum are flying with their thrust line 40 inches above > the tailboom, I REALLY would like to know about it pronto. >> >> As big of an ego as I have had a > few times in my life, and as much as I think of myself as a > reasonably  skilled pilot, I don't need to be a test > pilot here and try to push any envelope at this early stage. > So if I can ask the Kolb ilst a favor... if any of you are > flying a Firestar with the engine thrust line 39 or 40 or 41 > incvhes above the tailboom please post this on the list and > let me know ifyou have any issues with the handling, > pitch-over, etc. >> >> Bill Berle >> www.ezflaphandle.com  - > safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft >> www.grantstar.net  >        - winning proposals for non-profit and > for-profit entities >> >> > -------------------------------------------- >> On Tue, 5/8/18, Richard Pike > <thegreybaron(at)charter.net> > wrote: >> >> Subject: Re: High > Thrust Line Question >> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com >> Date: Tuesday, May 8, 2018, 4:38 > PM >> >> --> Kolb-List message posted > by: "Richard >> Pike" <thegreybaron(at)charter.net> >> >> Bill; notice the extent to which > Rick >> raised his engine. (Great > pictures) Maybe you can leave the >> gearbox down and raise the engine > up? >> >> -------- >> Richard Pike >> Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) >> Kingsport, TN 3TN0 >> >> Forgiving is tough, being forgiven > is >> wonderful, and God's grace really > is amazing. >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=479963#479963 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> The Kolb-List Email Forum - >> Navigator to browse >> List Un/Subscription, >> 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, >>      - MATRONICS > WEB FORUMS - >> via the Web Forums! >>      - NEW MATRONICS LIST > WIKI - >> Email List Wiki! >>    - List Contribution > Web Site - >> support! >>          >      >>      -Matt Dralle, List > Admin. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > The Kolb-List Email Forum - > Navigator to browse > List Un/Subscription, > 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, >      - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > via the Web Forums! >    - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - > Email List Wiki! >    - List Contribution Web Site - > support! >                >    -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > > > > > > >  The Kolb-List Email Forum - Navigator to browse List Un/Subscription, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,     - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - via the Web Forums!     - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - Email List Wiki!   - List Contribution Web Site - support!                     -Matt Dralle, List Admin.      =========== =========== =========== =========== ===========

_________________
Jack B Hart FFoo4
Winchester, IN

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