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dirtracin

Joined: 26 Sep 2015
Posts: 8

Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2016 3:12 pm Post subject: NEED HELP... Setting wing incidence on a Mk3 Xtra

So here is my problem... I have the fuselage leveled from the engine mount from front to back and left to right... the wings are in line with one anther and now its time to set the wing incidence... I have a 6' level with a digital angle finder on top that I am spanning from the leading edge of the wing to the trailing edge on the bottom side of the wing closest to the wing root... the recommended wing incidence is 1.4 degrees... so when I set it at that angle the wing root tab where it gets pinned to the fuselage is way to low to be mounted... I can only mount it between 3 and 6 degrees so the tab can be mounted to the fuselage the way I'm doing it... someone please tell me where I have gone wrong...

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2016 4:28 pm Post subject: NEED HELP... Setting wing incidence on a Mk3 Xtra

From where did you get the 1.4 degree incidence setting and from where is it measured? I believe Bryan's recommendation is 2.8 to 3.5 degrees set using the engine mount as the zero reference. I urge you to go for the minimum recommendation.Here's why; the X was developed to improve the performance of the C. To do it the cockpit truss was lowered at the front in an effort to decrease the angle at which the two plane surfaces on the bottom of the fuselage meet. Barnaby (Wainfan of the Kit Planes "Wind Tunnel" column) wanted to get this angle to somewhere below 15 degrees so the air could follow this abrupt change (with a very small radius between) a bit better than it did on the C. He failed to see that when he did this the new wedge shaped fuselage would be at a negative angle in cruise flight. What you ended up with was a wing trying to go up and a fuselage and tail trying to go down. Not very efficient (the Plane from Hell, a C converted to an X, had actually caved in the top of the nose cone from the pressure). 

So, as I heard the story from Travis, Bryan began experimenting with reducing the wing incidence. In doing that he had to reduce the angle of the HS and when those two came right he then needed to make the main landing gear legs longer to make the aircraft rotate better at take off. 

Okay, probably more than you wanted to know.

Rick Girard

On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 6:12 PM, dirtracin <igetthebug(at)gmail.com (igetthebug(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kolb-List message posted by: "dirtracin" <igetthebug(at)gmail.com (igetthebug(at)gmail.com)>

 

 So here is my problem... I have the fuselage leveled from the engine mount from front to back and left to right... the wings are in line with one anther and now its time to set the wing incidence... I have a 6' level with a digital angle finder on top that I am spanning from the leading edge of the wing to the trailing edge on the bottom side of the wing closest to the wing root... the recommended wing incidence is 1.4 degrees... so when I set it at that angle the wing root tab where it gets pinned to the fuselage is way to low to be mounted... I can only mount it between 3 and 6 degrees so the tab can be mounted to the fuselage the way I'm doing it... someone please tell me where I have gone wrong...

 

 

 

 

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 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=461526#461526

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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dirtracin

Joined: 26 Sep 2015
Posts: 8

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 4:40 am Post subject: Re: NEED HELP... Setting wing incidence on a Mk3 Xtra

I got that info straight from my manual...  I do have the 11th Mk3 Xtra.. So there maybe some differences from the newer models... I did set the wings at 3.4 last night which put me inline with the tab on the wing root but now the wing root is in contact with the flap tangs that stick out through the fuselage... And when I moved the wing outward to clear the flap tangs now the wing root tab that mounts to the fuselage is to far out to be pinned to the fuselage... Something is not right!..

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Herbgh(at)nctc.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 4:50 am Post subject: NEED HELP... Setting wing incidence on a Mk3 Xtra

sounds like picture time...take some..and someone on the list will be 

able to help. Herb

On 10/23/2016 07:40 AM, dirtracin wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I got that info straight from my manual...  I do have the 11th Mk3 Xtra.. So there maybe some differences from the newer models... I did set the wings at 3.4 last night which put me inline with the tab on the wing root but now the wing root is in contact with the flap tangs that stick out through the fuselage... And when I moved the wing outward to clear the flap tangs now the wing root tab that mounts to the fuselage is to far out to be pinned to the fuselage... Something is not right!..





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=461530#461530





 Attachments:



 http://forums.matronics.com//files/img008_162.jpg




	


-- 

"Masculine republics give way to feminine democracies, and feminine democracies give way to tyranny."



Aristotle



"Daddy, tell me...why are you going to the pig farm for a reeducation and what does it mean "A basket of deplorables"? "Are you unreedemable"? And" who is Stalin and Mao Zedong"? Mark Twain's GGgranddaughter...

Herbgh(at)nctc.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 4:52 am Post subject: NEED HELP... Setting wing incidence on a Mk3 Xtra

by the way...wondering if there is a difference between the MKIII C and 

the MkIII X root rib?  Herb

On 10/23/2016 07:40 AM, dirtracin wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I got that info straight from my manual...  I do have the 11th Mk3 Xtra.. So there maybe some differences from the newer models... I did set the wings at 3.4 last night which put me inline with the tab on the wing root but now the wing root is in contact with the flap tangs that stick out through the fuselage... And when I moved the wing outward to clear the flap tangs now the wing root tab that mounts to the fuselage is to far out to be pinned to the fuselage... Something is not right!..





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=461530#461530





 Attachments:



 http://forums.matronics.com//files/img008_162.jpg




	


-- 

"Masculine republics give way to feminine democracies, and feminine democracies give way to tyranny."



Aristotle



"Daddy, tell me...why are you going to the pig farm for a reeducation and what does it mean "A basket of deplorables"? "Are you unreedemable"? And" who is Stalin and Mao Zedong"? Mark Twain's GGgranddaughter...

dirtracin

Joined: 26 Sep 2015
Posts: 8

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 6:15 am Post subject: Re: NEED HELP... Setting wing incidence on a Mk3 Xtra

here are a few pics of what I'm dealing with...  The wing is set at 3.4 degrees and is in contact with the flap tang/flange...

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dirtracin

Joined: 26 Sep 2015
Posts: 8

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 6:20 am Post subject: Re: NEED HELP... Setting wing incidence on a Mk3 Xtra

here you can see the contact between the flap flange and the wing root when set at the 3.4 degrees... if I move the wing out then I dont have enough room to pin the wing root to the fuselage...

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dirtracin

Joined: 26 Sep 2015
Posts: 8

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 6:31 am Post subject: Re: NEED HELP... Setting wing incidence on a Mk3 Xtra

there is an easy fix for this... If I'm doing this correctly... it looks like the flap rod that goes out to each side could be cut down a little and replaced... but I need to know what I'm doing is right before I go cutting stuff...



I did do a search on incidence and it seems the older kolbs with the short landing gear used a different angle of incidence... ok I have the old version, but I have the newer longer curved landing gear...

Herbgh(at)nctc.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 6:46 am Post subject: NEED HELP... Setting wing incidence on a Mk3 Xtra

New Fuselage and old wings?  The root ribs look different...? Herb

On 10/23/2016 09:15 AM, dirtracin wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 here are a few pics of what I'm dealing with...  The wing is set at 3.4 degrees and is in contact with the flap tang/flange...





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=461535#461535





 Attachments:



 http://forums.matronics.com//files/14716218_899158316881130_8794337127641064577_n_259.jpg




	


-- 

"Masculine republics give way to feminine democracies, and feminine democracies give way to tyranny."



Aristotle



"Daddy, tell me...why are you going to the pig farm for a reeducation and what does it mean "A basket of deplorables"? "Are you unreedemable"? And" who is Stalin and Mao Zedong"? Mark Twain's GGgranddaughter...

Herbgh(at)nctc.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 6:53 am Post subject: NEED HELP... Setting wing incidence on a Mk3 Xtra

Isn't that root rib mounting tab in the wrong location?  Been a while 

and the one I rebuilt was a MkIII C.. Herb

On 10/23/2016 09:20 AM, dirtracin wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 here you can see the contact between the flap flange and the wing root when set at the 3.4 degrees... if I move the wing out then I dont have enough room to pin the wing root to the fuselage...





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=461536#461536





 Attachments:



 http://forums.matronics.com//files/14724609_899158313547797_8819378937121285255_n_516.jpg

 http://forums.matronics.com//files/14721753_899158320214463_5055405320923361270_n_102.jpg




	


-- 

"Masculine republics give way to feminine democracies, and feminine democracies give way to tyranny."



Aristotle



"Daddy, tell me...why are you going to the pig farm for a reeducation and what does it mean "A basket of deplorables"? "Are you unreedemable"? And" who is Stalin and Mao Zedong"? Mark Twain's GGgranddaughter...

dirtracin

Joined: 26 Sep 2015
Posts: 8

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 7:02 am Post subject: Re: NEED HELP... Setting wing incidence on a Mk3 Xtra

It was bought as an unfinished kit... some of the parts were assembled when i bought it... at some point i think some of the parts where stored outdoors... the fuselage was pretty rusty before i had it powder coated so it looks newer than the wings...

Herbgh(at)nctc.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 7:43 am Post subject: NEED HELP... Setting wing incidence on a Mk3 Xtra

Looks as if all of the regular kolbers are off doing something else...?  

Naturally, Bryan at the factory would be glad to help..



   I am wondering about the root rib more than anything at the 

moment...perhaps some pictures with a larger view might help...? Herb



On 10/23/2016 10:02 AM, dirtracin wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 It was bought as an unfinished kit... some of the parts were assembled when i bought it... at some point i think some of the parts where stored outdoors... the fuselage was pretty rusty before i had it powder coated so it looks newer than the wings...





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=461541#461541






	


-- 

"Masculine republics give way to feminine democracies, and feminine democracies give way to tyranny."



Aristotle



"Daddy, tell me...why are you going to the pig farm for a reeducation and what does it mean "A basket of deplorables"? "Are you unreedemable"? And" who is Stalin and Mao Zedong"? Mark Twain's GGgranddaughter...

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 12:49 pm Post subject: NEED HELP... Setting wing incidence on a Mk3 Xtra

If it's an old 3X are the leading edges of the horizontal stabilizer set in the middle of the boom tube or near the top edge? The Mark 3C would have them set near the top edge and the early X's also used this setting. If you mix the "C" setting of the HS with the lower wing incidence of the "X" your airplane will not fly correctly.

Rick

On Sun, Oct 23, 2016 at 10:58 AM, dirtracin <igetthebug(at)gmail.com (igetthebug(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kolb-List message posted by: "dirtracin" <igetthebug(at)gmail.com (igetthebug(at)gmail.com)>

 

 lowering the wings has now created a new problem... the gap seal I have cannot work with the wings that low... the leading edge of the wing now sits lower than the upper windshield mount/bar... yet the gap seal I have the leading edge would have to be above the windshield mount/bar... I think I will just call Bryan tomorrow... thanks for responding...

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=461546#461546

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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-- 

“Blessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light.”   Groucho Marx

_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 2:50 pm Post subject: NEED HELP... Setting wing incidence on a Mk3 Xtra

Just realized I forgot about the gap cover. Yep, the "C" cover will not

work with the "X" (latest) wing incidence setting. Attached are pictures of

the one I made for the PfH.



Rick



PS Found the incidence numbers I used, although setting the motor mount at

zero is a PITA, you end up the nose on the ground and the tail in the

rafters. :-}

1) with motor mount set at level in BOTH directions, i.e.--0 degrees

2) boom tube should be -6.1 deg (mine was!!)

3) hor. stab should be -4.6 deg

4) dihedral should be 1.6 degrees per wing (I chose 2.7, because my

diagonal struts were already made. When repositioning the wings to the new

lower position, this has the effect of adding dihedral)

5) main wing should be +3.4 deg, but this has been revised to +2.8 deg

After looking at the numbers I began to wonder if you aren't confusing the

dihedral setting with the incidence setting. Just a thought.

On Sun, Oct 23, 2016 at 4:09 PM, Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com> wrote:



[quote] Just realized I forgot about the gap cover. Yep, the "C" cover will not

 work with the "X" (latest) wing incidence setting. Attached are pictures of

 the one I made for the PfH.



 Rick



 PS Found the incidence numbers I used, although setting the motor mount at

 zero is a PITA, you end up the nose on the ground and the tail in the

 rafters. :-} After looking at the numbers I began to wonder if you aren't

 confusing the dihedral setting with the incidence setting. Just a thought

_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

Rex Rodebush

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 209
Location: Branson West area, Missouri

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 3:24 pm Post subject: Re: NEED HELP... Setting wing incidence on a Mk3 Xtra

I have an Xtra that is the same vintage as yours (within 2 numbers).  I ordered a MarkIII and then changed it when the Xtra came out.  I called Brian in July, 2011 when I started final rigging.  The numbers he gave me are very close to Rick's.



At Motor mount of 0 degrees, wing is 3.4, boom is -6.1, horiz. stab is -4.8 (I have the larger horiz. stab.).  

I set my D.H. so the tips are about 2 1/4" high each side.  



I also have the longer heavy steel legs from Kolb.  Be sure to take several readings and average them.  Those numbers have worked great for me.  I think the u-joints on the wing can be turned upside down and that also Kolb has make some a little different.  I don't remember the details or exactly what I had to do to get his numbers. I do remember that it was a lot of hassle going back and forth.  Change one thing and you affect everything else. You might call Brian if nothing seems to work.

Rex Rodebush

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 209
Location: Branson West area, Missouri

Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 6:29 am Post subject: Re: NEED HELP... Setting wing incidence on a Mk3 Xtra

If you use a digital level you can set it on the motor mount and "zero"it.  Then you can take your readings as the plane is sitting.  Also, I taped the level to the bottom of a longer precision level to measure the wing angle on the bottom of every other rib.  You may be surprised at the deviation. Just average them and try to make the outboard end of the wings close to the same angle so you have an even stall.  The more I think about it I may have turned the back wing u-joints upside down or used some that Kolb made with the holes in a different location.  Can't remember, but I do remember that Brian had some suggestions.  I think the older "blue" manual had some good tips and suggestions that were not incorporated in the newer one.  I could scan the wing set up part and send it to you offline if you want.  I could also send you pictures of my front and back wing attachment points if you wish.

dirtracin

Joined: 26 Sep 2015
Posts: 8

Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 7:28 am Post subject: Re: NEED HELP... Setting wing incidence on a Mk3 Xtra

Yes Rex... anything you can do will help me out... the manual would be a great start because i have the new manual and it doesn't  mach my plane... also my plans are from a classic so its all screwed up... can you measure the distance between the left and right wing roots at the rear by the u joint and where it is pinned to the fuselage... and no i have not tried rotating the u joints... i never gave that a thought...

Frankd

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 64

Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 8:54 am Post subject: Re: NEED HELP... Setting wing incidence on a Mk3 Xtra

Hello Sir, 



I have one of the early MkIII Xtra's as well.  I did change to the new taller steel legs and would advise anyone to do that. 



Both the Wing and the tail Horizontal incidences need to set correctly and I would certainly call the factory for the latest settings. I don't remember what they are  but I did set the Leading edge of the HS too low,  per a factory letter for newer models,  and this created a dangerous first flight with wayyy too much UP pitch which could have killed me.. 



I did get a new universal joint from the factory that was much wider then the original and I have a bunch of washers to get the wing incidence correct.  This is the trick to getting it all lined up right.  The factory reset the wing incidence to reduce the effect of the wide nose during flight. 



You will have to reset the gap seal and windshield fairing again and maybe make a new one,  once all the incidences are set . I remember it took some effort but I eventually used the original fiberglass parts. 



To summarize:-

a/ I'd recommend getting the tall steel legs.  There is a left and right and make sure you install them correctly.  I had to redo this as its easy to 

b/ Call the factory,  get the new incidences for both the wing and tail and a possible new wide universal bracket. 

c/ You should not have to cut any of the flap controls,  that does not look right. 



AND we will try to help as well.. 



Regards

FrankD



MkIII Xtra,  N1014S

dirtracin

Joined: 26 Sep 2015
Posts: 8

Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 11:41 am Post subject: Re: NEED HELP... Setting wing incidence on a Mk3 Xtra

I just got off the phone with Bryan at Kolb and he told me to set it up like the mk3 classic... lol



He also said not to set it up with the adjustable u joints...

Rex Rodebush

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 209
Location: Branson West area, Missouri

Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 1:27 pm Post subject: Re: NEED HELP... Setting wing incidence on a Mk3 Xtra

Not sure what he meant by adjustable u-joints. The only adjustment I am aware is with washers. ??

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