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Oil Thermostat
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rholder(at)avnet.co.uk
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 1:37 am    Post subject: Oil Thermostat Reply with quote

I have fitted and test flown my oil thermostat. I fear
that it is faulty.

I was expecting that the oil temperature would go quickly
up to 80 or so and stay there whatever I did, unless I
went to a really hot place when the temp would go up.

I spoke to Steve Slade who currently owns G-MIKI the
microlight that Nigel Beale put the original thermostat
on, and on which the mod 10179 is based. He confirmed that
his plane temp goes to 80 and stays there. he also said
that the original purpose of the mod was to get the oil
warming up quicker.

My oil did not warm up quicker. On take-off the
temperature rose to 95 on a very cold day (3 degrees),
then it dropped to 60 in the cruise. 60 is where it used
to cruise on cold days without the thermostat and with
almost all the radiator blanked off.

My feeling is that the waxstat in the thermostat is
opening too early and is not opening enough so that some
oil bypasses the cooler even at over 90.

Anyone got any suggestions ? I am contemplating ripping
the whole thing off and getting another one.

I relate the sad tale now in case anyone else has bought
the device and hasn't fitted it yet. The waxstat needs
checking (dump in a saucepan of water, heat slowly and I
believe it should start to expand at around 75 degrees and
be fully extended (12 mm ?) by 85).

If anyone has fitted one I would appreciate feed-back as
to whether their oil temp goes quickly up to 80 and stays
there !

TIA

Richard
G-OWWW High Cross


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mikenjulie.parkin(at)btop
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 2:20 am    Post subject: Oil Thermostat Reply with quote

Richard,

Please don't shoot!!! But I have to ask the obvious - you are sure it is
connected correctly??

regards,

Mike

PS. Is it OK to fit this Mod (PFA wise), or are you 'pressing to test'.

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rholder(at)avnet.co.uk
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 2:48 am    Post subject: Oil Thermostat Reply with quote

Quote:
Please don't shoot!!! But I have to ask the obvious -
you are sure it is connected correctly??

Bang Bang !

Quote:
PS. Is it OK to fit this Mod (PFA wise), or are you
'pressing to test'.

Mod 10179 approved for "all of type" Smile

Richard


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ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserv
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 1:02 pm    Post subject: Oil Thermostat Reply with quote

The temperature at which the waxstat opens is usually stamped on the end of
the insert (located inside the thermostat).

Duncan McF.
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rholder(at)avnet.co.uk
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 1:17 pm    Post subject: Oil Thermostat Reply with quote

Duncan McFadyean wrote:

Quote:
The temperature at which the waxstat opens is usually
stamped on the end of the insert (located inside the
thermostat).

Yes, it may be. I will look at it when I strip it all out
again ! Would the waxstat go from closed to open in just a
few degrees - so if it is stamped say 80 it would start at
75 and be fully open at 85, or would it be even tighter
controlled than that ?

Thanks !

Richard


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ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserv
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 1:45 pm    Post subject: Oil Thermostat Reply with quote

Yes they do (i.e. open very rapidly within a few degrees) around the
temperature that they are 'rated' for, and close less rapidly. If you try it
in water you'll see what I mean; an element rated at 80 will be doing next
to nothing at around 78, then be fully open by about 82.
Having to dig deep in memory for this one!
If the temperature at any time exceeds 140 C then the wax element is
permanently destroyed.

Duncan McF.
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mikenjulie.parkin(at)btop
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 1:55 pm    Post subject: Oil Thermostat Reply with quote

Duncan,

If the waxstat fails does it fail open, closed or in the position where it
failed.

regards,

MP

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pete(at)lawless.info
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 3:00 pm    Post subject: Oil Thermostat Reply with quote

If this is the inline oil stat available from Think Automotive the
figure they gave me were starts to open 73 degrees fully open 79
degrees.

Pete

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ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserv
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 3:16 pm    Post subject: Oil Thermostat Reply with quote

More often in the open position, AFAIK.
Cars with failed thermostats tend to run cold, rather than the reverse.

Duncan McF.
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nigel_graham(at)btclick.c
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 1:13 am    Post subject: Oil Thermostat Reply with quote

Wax thermostats used in cars were notorious for failing closed (overheating
the engine) since the wax capsule would split and the wax escape. It was the
bi-metallic thermostats that failed safe.

I have no idea how this oil 'stat fails but would guess closed.

Nigel
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ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 7:43 am    Post subject: Oil Thermostat Reply with quote

Hi! Nigel
I've been keeping "schtumn" because I'm not a Rotax Buff. BUT.... this
thermostat idea on oil systems gives me the creeps what if ......!
Much better to focus on a pilot control facility like metering the oil
to the cooler by pilot controlled valve. I know this is something else
to constantly do but you should be always "heads up " on P's and T's
anyway.
I have a system of P1 controlled oil to cooler metered or even off
completely and the engine still gets full flow supply at all settings.
I rarely need to engage the cooler but I have an all air cooled engine.
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG Europa MKI Jabiru 3300

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nigel_graham(at)btclick.c
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 9:21 am    Post subject: Oil Thermostat Reply with quote

Hi Bob,

I was watching this thread with interest. The thought of a thermostat on an
oil system that relies entirely on crankcase pressure for the return (912/4)
scares the willies out of me too!
As I understrand it, the Rotax oil thermostat by-passes the radiator but
maintains circulation, unlike the car water system that stops (reduces) the
flow.
If I were going to control the oil temperature, I would have a
temperature-transducer controlled vane adjusting the airflow through the
radiator - not the oil........much less risky.
Sounds like a mission for Mark Burton (should he choose to accept)!

Nigel

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rholder(at)avnet.co.uk
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 10:05 am    Post subject: Oil Thermostat Reply with quote

Hi team

I am reporting back after further investigation.

To Nigel Graham, the crankcase pressure does return the
oil to the oil tank. Wierd but it does work. However the
oil cooler is NOT in that return. The oil cooler is
between the oil tank and the oil pump, which SUCKS from
the tank, through the cooler. The oil thermostat provides
a by-pass of the cooler - and indeed as the cooler
provides significant restriction to the sucking the
by-pass might well provide MORE oil to the pump. If the
thermostat failed closed then there would be plenty of
oil, but it would get hot rapidly.

I reported on Sunday about my experience. My oil went to
95 in a climb to 2500 feet and then down to 60 in the
cruise on a very cold (2 C) day. Neither was what I was
expecting and so today I ripped the thermostat out,
dropping only a small amount of oil on the hanger floor Smile

I checked the installation and I was happy I had done it
right.

So I brought the wax-stat home and put it in a saucepan on
the AGA. Eventually I found a Celsius thermometer and
tried it. Then I put an elastic band on it to provide a
return spring force. It worked exactly as I expected -
opening at about 73 and being fully open at 80. As per spec.

So I did some thinking, and drew it past Simon Nash who
has part-installed his. We decided that it is likely that
the sealing of the ports in the thermostat has been
compromised by the required drilling out of the ports to
10 mm. If in the hot position the disk that seals off the
by-pass doesn't quite block it off then oil will prefer to
go the by-pass route and not go via the cooler.

I have a "cunning plan" to check on this and I will report
back soon after it is installed and tested. It should
prove the problem of heating up too much in the climb. The
cruise coldness may be a by-product, but I can live with
that for now as it was a VERY cold day when I test flew
it, and I had no baffles whatsoever on the radiators.

In the mean-time - I would recommend anyone who has bought
one of these thermostats to avoid drilling out the ports
until I report back. Or if you have done two ports then
DON'T do the other two.

Another lateral thought - does anyone know if oil coolers
ever have a required direction of flow ?

Richard Holder, who can envisage installation, and then a
further removal and re-installation. In the brrrrrrrr cold !

G-OWWW, High Cross


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rholder(at)avnet.co.uk
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 10:55 am    Post subject: Oil Thermostat Reply with quote

josok wrote:

Quote:
Hi Nigel, Bob,

Quote:
OA, the German Rotax dealer has as a Rotax addon an oil
thermostat available. This is a thermostat with 4 !
connections, and only changes the oil flow through the
radiator or direct. So, if this thermostat is closed,
the oil pressure does not even have to deal with the
resistance of the radiator. If this thermostat would
hang closed, you would notice a rise in oil
temperature, if it stays open, oil would not reach a
sufficient temperature. IMHO, a manual operated flap
or anything that adds to (this new-by) pilot workload
is more error-prone.

Quote:
Regards,

Jos Okhuijsen

Is that OA the dealer ? I thought the dealer was
Franz-aircraft, who do indeed have an oil thermostat. Not
approved here, but it works in exactly the same way as the
one that is approved.

They also have a water thermostat and we have no
equivalent of that approved ;-(

By the way - the oil going through the oil cooler (and the
thermostat) is not under pressure, it is being SUCKED into
the engine from the tank by the oil pump. Do not put the
oil cooler in the oil line between the sump and the oil tank.

Richard


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ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 1:18 pm    Post subject: Oil Thermostat Reply with quote

Ok Jos thanks for that, However what if the cooler breaks and you start
loosing oil (I had that problem but only on a half hour flight!) With
mine the cooler is in circuit only a miniscule period of time so a leak
would be kept to the absolute minimum when you landed you'd get to
notice before the "donkey" packed up aloft !

I've just seen Richards message as to where the cooler on the Rotax is
situated so similar may apply except it would be pulling air in ......
don't you believe it IMHO oil would still p.... out !
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG Europa MKI/Jabiru 3300

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ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserv
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 2:56 pm    Post subject: Oil Thermostat Reply with quote

Bob,
The recent problems with leaking joints on the Rotax-supplied oil coolers
(MPD issued by PFA) resulted in air leaking in and loss of oil-circuit
priming, not oil leaking out.

Before you you respond (!), don't forget that Jab's (particularly the less
smoothly running 2200) have suffered numerous oil cooler circuit failures on
a number of aircraft types (Rans S6 and Renegade to name two).
This is has a lot to do with the oil cooling circuit running at full system
pressure.

Duncan McF.
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Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 3:22 pm    Post subject: Oil Thermostat Reply with quote

Quote:
If this thermostat would hang closed, you would notice a rise in oil temperature, if it stays open, oil would not reach a sufficient temperature. IMHO, a manual operated flap or anything that adds to (this new-by) pilot workload is more error-prone.



Hi all,


Although the following doesn't apply to a Europa, it may be of interest
regarding Rotax 914 setups.
In our project, we decided to make a cowling from scratch, and I had the
opportunity to design a radiator duct with cowl flaps. A short summary
of the design principle can be viewed on my "wind tunnel" web pages.

The airplane has been flight tested from -14C to +37C with perfect
ease of temperature adjustment. Operating the cowl flap is a breeze, and
you always have a few minutes to adjust temperatures to your taste
within 5C of target.
We had considered using a thermostat, but whereas it solves the
temperature issue, the drag is always high. On the other hand, drag
decreases when you close the flap.
Besides, if the thermostat fails in the by-pass position, the
temperature rise will be fast and very harmful to the engine.

From the messages about blocking the radiators, or adding thermostat to
cowl flaps, I have the feeling that the cooling of Europas could benefit
from this little research work.

FWIW,
Regards,
Gilles Thesee
Grenoble, France
http://contrails.free.fr


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pete(at)lawless.info
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 3:27 pm    Post subject: Oil Thermostat Reply with quote

Evening All

Think Automotive sent me a drawing of the oil stat with some hand
written annotations. As well as the temperature figures they clearly
marked flow from and to the engine and flow to and from the oil cooler.
On the diagram if you hold the stat so that the 2 screws that hold it
together have their heads at the top, then turn it so that the higher
pipe it to the right. Now the right hand pipes are engine and the left
had pair the cooler. Looking at the diagram the other way round would
have oil pressure pushing up the diaphragm and potentially opening the
stat. I will send a TIF of the diagram off forum.

Regards

Pete

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ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserv
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 3:46 pm    Post subject: Oil Thermostat Reply with quote

The heated and expanded wax causes the thermostat to open against spring
pressure. As the wax cools, the valve is closed by the spring pressure, not
"suction" of contracting wax, which would probably cavitate anyway.
As such, when the wax is lost there is nothing to push the valve open and
the spring returns it to the closed position, so failing in that position.

I agree that the older mechanical versions fail closed.

The Mocal version of oil thermostat bypasses the cooler when "closed".

Duncan McF
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 4:01 pm    Post subject: Oil Thermostat Reply with quote

You can find that diagram at
http://www.xse.com/leres/ss/images/mocal2.pdf

Duncan McF.
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