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Heat exchanger for the XS Europa
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grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 11:00 am Post subject: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa

Richard

The CAA is mainly interested in avoiding any possibility of being blamed 

themselves. That's why they are so reluctant to be positive about so 

many things

Graham



Richard Holder wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   In the Land of the Free you are free to risk whatever you

 like as YOU have to sit in it. The CAA would like anyone

 who sits in the plane to be guaranteed safety  Ha ha !



 Richard

 G-OWWW

 High Cross

Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 11:04 am Post subject: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa

Graham,

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 the duct needs to be properly designed for efficient, low drag cooling 

 too. 


	


I sure do agree.

You'll find some details on how I designed our radiator duct :



http://contrails.free.fr/tunnel_en.php



No cooling air leaks whatsoever. In flight we can adjust the temps 

within 5 °C of the target temperature we choose.

Having an efficient inlet diffuser gives us plenty of high pressure 70°C 

air behind the radiators.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Several XS builders did redesign the duct with noteworthy results. Bob 

 Berube might enlighten us if he's still listening?

 Graham




	


Best regards,

Gilles

http://contrails.free.fr

mikenjulie.parkin(at)btop
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 11:27 am Post subject: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa

Not entirely true.  G-JULZ has a cockpit heater based on the hot air behind 

the radiators being ducted, via bulkhead shutoff valves, into the cockpit. 

All PFA approved.



regards,



Mike



---

karelvranken(at)hotmail.c
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 11:28 am Post subject: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa

Nigel,

 Every builder, I think, is interested in cabin  heating if....if. Technicaly it has to be simple. Practicaly easy to execute and  without sacrificing other good arrangements. Not to much added weight. Easy in  usage and comfort, and last but not least, not to expensif.

 Before placing an order I would like to have more  information.

 Karel Vranken. 

 # 447  F-PKRL XS mono 912ULS Airmaster 332  passed last control and waiting for "Laisser passer" for first flight in  Sedan.

 [quote]   ---

peter.rees01(at)tiscali.c
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 12:02 pm Post subject: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa

G-MFHI already has a cabin heat - is this standard  in the classic? It consistes of a fibreglass moulding over the stbd rad which  ducts air into a section of scat hose which (via a rather tortuous route) feeds  into a section of the exhaust - this then feeds out via scat hose and a  shut off valve to the P1 footwell.

  

 The heat exchanger muff certainly looks to be part  of the original exhaust.

  

 Peter

  [quote][b]

ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 12:31 pm Post subject: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa

Hi! Nigel  

Never had a problem with cabin heat with my Jabiru 3300 hot air from oil cooler manifold.  

However now I’ve Insurance settlement and changing to a 914 Rotax I guess you’d better register my interest , please,! (Assuming I have any money left over !) Presuming it will be effective for a 914 ? However may I suggest it is a heat collector manifold catching heat from the coolant system or oil cooler system, can’t abide by any thought of Carbon Monoxide poisoning it would be as bad as freezing to death !  

Regards  

Bob Harrison G-PTAG ( due in the air as soon as  an engine is available like quoted 6-9 months !)  

     

Robt.C.Harrison  

  

   

-----Original Message-----

 From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of nigel charles

 Sent: 15  September 2006 10:21

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa  

   

The manufacturer for the Europa exhaust has shown interest in producing a heat exchanger box to be fitted to the XS version of the aircraft. Before they move forward and design the product they want to find out how much of a market there is for such a device. Obviously it is only worth their while if enough owners would buy one. Any one who is interested should email me so I can give the manufacturer an idea of the numbers involved.  

   

Regards  

   

Nigel Charles  [quote]            - The Europa-List Email Forum -   -->               - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -   -->               - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -   -->              - List Contribution Web Site -  Thank you for your generous support!                              -Matt Dralle, List Admin.   -->  [b]

robh(at)hyperion-ef.us
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 1:18 pm Post subject: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa

While my scheme is not literally using air from outside of the cowling, the

duct created by CD1, CD2, CD3, and the rubber seals against the fiberglass

cowling isolates the cooling air flow from everything else within the

cowling.  More importantly, and not apparent unless you see the actual

design, there is a stainless steel "fire door" that will shut off the air

flow to the cockpit (at the firewall) if there is a fire within the

cowling - the "fire door" closes automatically because it is spring loaded

and held open by a fusible link that will melt at 100 deg C.



Unfortunately I can't overcome the objection to a burst heat exchanger

allowing hot liquid into the cabin air stream.  However, the way that I have

designed the intake to the SCAT tube would minimize ingestion of liquids

into the cabin air, and unless the occupants were incapacitated it would be

easy enough to shut off the flow of heated air.



I've attached the details of my scheme to another message posted with this

one.

Best regards,



Rob Housman

A070

Airframe complete

Irvine, CA



--

robh(at)hyperion-ef.us
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 1:47 pm Post subject: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa

My first attempt to post the details as an attachment got bounced because

the attachment (at 1725 Kb) is too large (1000 Kb max. allowed).  I have

submitted it to Matt for inclusion in the file and photo sharing at

http://www.matronics.com/photoshare

Best regards,



Rob Housman

A070

Airframe complete

Irvine, CA



--

sidsel.svein(at)oslo.onli
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 10:24 pm Post subject: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa

Nigel,

  

 Great - yes, please.

  

 Bets regards,

 Svein

 LN-SKJ

  

 do not archive

 [quote]   ---

ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserv
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 1:25 am Post subject: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa

Another way is to route fresh cold air from the  front of the cowl back to the firewall/cockpit using the very lightweight  corrugated aluminium vent tube used on automotives. This picks up heat (by  exchange process) as it passes through the hot (c.60C) cowl space. May not work  in extremes of climate?

  

 Duncan McF.

 [quote]   ---

g-iani(at)ntlworld.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 1:58 am Post subject: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa

I have just reviewed the correspondence on cabin heat and following a

conversation with Andy Draper this week a few points seem worth making.

I also have the cooling duct off my aircraft at present and thought it

was a good idea to do something like this while I had it in bits.



I had a long talk with Andy Draper this week (now with the PFA).  He has

been given the job of sorting out the mess of Standard Mod applications

that has built up due to the staff leaving the PFA.  This is very good

news for us UK flyer/builders.  With Andy's help I hope we can progress

the standard mods that have been sitting with the PFA for just on a

year.  I, with Andy's help, will also look at other mods that should

become standard (or even Factory as with the tri gear springs) and a

standard mod for cabin heat seems a very good idea.  As part of this we

will ensure that the mods are accessible, to all, via the PFA web site.

This was supposed to have been done month ago but again a PFA problem.

 

The 914 exhaust is a Rotax part so is not going to be involved in any

work CKT do with the 912 system they produce.



The idea of a heat exchanger off the exhaust strikes my as "spam can"

technology with the risks of CO and incoming air at temperatures far

higher than you really need.



(by the way Alan, an intercooler is used to reduce the temperature of

the incoming "charge" air not to keep engine temps down.)



The XS has a very suitable source of nicely warm (70 deg C) air behind

the water/oil radiators (Sorry Classic owners but this did start as an

XS topic)



As Rob Housman has said "What the Europa factory forgot was the

necessary ducting to get warmed air into the cockpit".  Thanks for

posting the details via Matronics.  It is not up as of now (Sat 10.00Z)

but I look forward to seeing them.  

In particular the stainless steel "fire door" that will shut off the air

flow to the cockpit (at the firewall) if there is a fire within the

cowling (fusible link) seems like a very good feature.  Yes to totally

eliminate the burst heat exchanger allowing hot liquid into the cabin

air stream is difficult.  However the design of the intake to the SCAT

tube (and a vertical section of the SCAT tube) should minimize ingestion

of liquids into the cabin air.  If you have some sort of air box in the

top of the foot well this could also be designed as a liquid trap.



Mike Parkin has pointed out "G-JULZ has a cockpit heater based on the

hot air behind the radiators being ducted, via bulkhead shutoff valves,

into the cockpit. All PFA approved".  Mike could you please let me have

details of the mod or at least the Mod number so I can get it from the

PFA.



I have Paul McAllister's picture of his take off from the duct but a few

more details of the flap hinge duct etc would be greatly appreciated.



Gilles your details on the cooling duct research are great but do you

have any details on the ducting?



Does anyone else have a solution to this problem?  All ideas are

welcome.

Ian Rickard  #505 G-IANI XS Trigear

Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear)

e-mail mods(at)europaclub.org.uk   

   or direct g-iani(at)ntlworld.com

kheindl(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 4:19 am Post subject: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa

Yes, Duncan and Ian, there is an idea I had for a long time but haven't had 

a chance to try it out. It is extremely simple but would only be of interest 

to those of you who have that ducting shroud over the top of their engine. 

The temperature under that shroud is 32C degrees above oat.

All you need is : two aluminum flanges, one eyeball vent, four nuts and 

bolts  four rivets, and a piece of scat tube.

One flange  is riveted on top of the port side of the shroud , first making 

a hole in it of course, the second goes on top of the footwell next to the 

vertical firewall, and is bolted together with the eyeball vent on the 

inside. The vent is difficult to reach once you are strapped in, but is good 

enough for me.

Tha vast majority of builders don't need extreme heat, and I can't afford to 

fly in the middle of winter (hangar space needed etc.) , but there is a need 

for cabin heat on cold days and at altitude.

I don't think the PFA would have a problem with that mod. It is all clean 

fresh air and no liquids.



Karl



[quote]From: "Duncan & Ami McFadyean" <ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>

Reply-To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

To: <europa-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa

Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 10:25:02 +0100



Another way is to route fresh cold air from the front of the cowl back to 

the firewall/cockpit using the very lightweight corrugated aluminium vent 

tube used on automotives. This picks up heat (by exchange process) as it 

passes through the hot (c.60C) cowl space. May not work in extremes of 

climate?



Duncan McF.

   ---

donaldheath(at)sbcglobal.
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 7:36 am Post subject: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa

nigel charles wrote:  	  Quote: 	
		                          <![endif]-->     Clean   Clean   DocumentEmail                            MicrosoftInternetExplorer4   <![endif]-->          /* Style Definitions */   table.MsoNormalTable 	{mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; 	mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; 	mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; 	mso-style-noshow:yes; 	mso-style-parent:""; 	mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt; 	mso-para-margin:0cm; 	mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; 	mso-pagination:widow-orphan; 	font-size:10.0pt; 	font-family:"Times New Roman";}  <![endif]-->      

The manufacturer for the Europa exhaust has shown interest in producing a heat exchanger box to be fitted to the XS version of the aircraft. Before they move forward and design the product they want to find out how much of a market there is for such a device. Obviously it is only worth their while if enough owners would buy one. Any one who is interested should email me so I can give the manufacturer an idea of the numbers involved.   

    

Regards   

    

Nigel Charles   

    	  Quote: 	
		  I am interested in heat exchanger you mention.

	
 	
 Don Heath

 1015 Eddy Lane

 Eau Claire, Wi. 54703   USA

 [quote]    	  Quote: 	
		  







  	
 [b]

air.guerner(at)wanadoo.fr
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 11:25 am Post subject: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa

Nigel, 

I am very interested 

Remi Guerner 

  

The manufacturer for the Europa exhaust has shown interest in producing

a heat exchanger box to be fitted to the XS version   [quote][b]

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