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Moving fiberglass

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hagargs(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 7:48 am Post subject: Moving fiberglass

This issue had come up before some time ago and I need my memory refreshed.  Am flying around in the hot AZ sun and differential expansion is rearing its ugly head.  This is especially true on the fuselage right around the area where the fuel filler maniflod is attached to the inside.  Some very prominent waves have developed in the skin here.  I am hesitant on filling these to smooth things out.  I am assuming that it is reasonable to expect that  things  will keep on moving through temperature cycling.  Does anyone have any history out there with flying in very hot weather and having the  fiberglass move around?  Have you found this to settle down after some time?   Has anyone come up with a different mounting routine for the manifold after getting the ripples?

  

 Steve Hagar

 N40 SH

 A143

 13 hrs

  

  

 Steve Hagar

 hagargs(at)earthlink.net (hagargs(at)earthlink.net)

  

 

   [quote][b]

Trevpond(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:25 am Post subject: Moving fiberglass

Hi Steve,

  

 Nev Eyre wrote a fix for this fairly recently, suggest you email him  direct.

  

 Trev Pond

  G-LINN

  [quote][b]

terrys(at)cisco.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:48 am Post subject: Moving fiberglass

Hi Steve,

  

 I believe what you are seeing is what I have been calling  print-thru, not heat/expansion related.  Print-thru happens on foam cored  surfaces that have something glassed to its back, like the fiber glass  reinforcing for your fuel filler neck.  As your plane ages, you will find  more print-thru on the fuse and wings.

  

 regards,

 Terry Seaver

  

  

  



   From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve  Hagar

Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 8:52 AM

To:  europa-list

Subject: Moving  fiberglass

 

 

 This issue had come up before some time ago and I need my memory  refreshed.  Am flying around in the hot AZ sun and differential expansion  is rearing its ugly head.  This is especially true on the fuselage right  around the area where the fuel filler maniflod is attached to the inside.   Some very prominent waves have developed in the skin  here.  I am hesitant on filling these to smooth things out.  I am  assuming that it is reasonable to expect that  things  will keep on  moving through temperature cycling.  Does anyone have any history out there  with flying in very hot weather and having the  fiberglass move  around?  Have you found this to settle down after some time?    Has anyone come up with a different mounting routine for the manifold after  getting the ripples?

  

 Steve Hagar

 N40 SH

 A143

 13 hrs

  

  

 Steve Hagar

 hagargs(at)earthlink.net (hagargs(at)earthlink.net)

  

 

[quote]

[b]

hagargs(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 12:29 pm Post subject: Moving fiberglass

Terry :

  

 I have seen what you are talking about,  this seems  to be a little more extreme,  I have attached a photo.

  

 Steve.

  

  Steve Hagar

 hagargs(at)earthlink.net (hagargs(at)earthlink.net)

  



  

 [quote] ---

DSCN2399_small.JPG

Description:

Filesize:

36.94 KB

Viewed:

225 Time(s)

jimpuglise(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 12:30 pm Post subject: Moving fiberglass

Steve-

  

 This was one of the topics discussed in the Aeropoxy forum at Oshkosh this year.  They are a big proponent of post-curing prior to painting.  They claim that all fiberglass should be post-cured.  I am a long way from being an expert; that is why I was in the forum.  They suggest something like 140 degrees for several hours.  Those of us living in the heat (AZ, FL, etc.) could probably get there by putting the pieces in the attic for a day.  You may want to talk to them about your problem.  The other thing they pointed out is that most of the organizations selling their, and other, products are not well qualified to address problems such as print through.  You may want to try contacting them and see if they have a fix prior to doing anything.

  

 Jim Puglise, A-283

 [quote]-------------- Original message -------------- 

From: "Terry Seaver (terrys)" <terrys(at)cisco.com> 

  Hi Steve,

  

 I believe what you are seeing is what I have been calling print-thru, not heat/expansion related.  Print-thru happens on foam cored surfaces that have something glassed to its back, like the fiber glass reinforcing for your fuel filler neck.  As your plane ages, you will find more print-thru on the fuse and wings.

  

 regards,

 Terry Seaver

  

  

  



   From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve Hagar

Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 8:52 AM

To: europa-list

Subject: Moving fiberglass

  

 

 This issue had come up before some time ago and I need my memory refreshed.  Am flying around in the hot AZ sun and differential expansion is rearing its ugly head.  This is especially true on the fuselage right around the area where the fuel filler maniflod is attached to the inside.  Some very prominent waves have developed in the skin here.  I am hesitant on filling these to smooth things out.  I am assuming that it is reasonable to expect that  things  will keep on moving through temperature cycling.  Does anyone have any history out there with flying in very hot weather and having the  fiberglass move around?  Have you found this to settle down after some time?   Has anyone come up with a different mounting routine for the manifold after getting the ripples?

  

 Steve Hagar

 N40 SH

 A143

 13 hrs

  

  

 Steve Hagar

 hagargs(at)earthlink.net (hagargs(at)earthlink.net)

  

 

 	  Quote: 	
		  



	
[b]

hagargs(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 12:48 pm Post subject: Moving fiberglass

During the 6 yr build in AZ it recieved that of curing and more.  However the curing they are talking about is the post curing done on the fiberglassyou lay up.   The gelcoated fuselage and wings are basically fully processed  once you get them.  Other than the fiberglass bits and pieces you add to them.

  

  Steve Hagar

 hagargs(at)earthlink.net (hagargs(at)earthlink.net)

  



  

 [quote] ---

jeff(at)rmmm.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 1:21 pm Post subject: Moving fiberglass

Steve,

It looks like the lay-up under the skin has come through as promised to 

me if I didn't place a slice of foam under the skin before I glassed 

the fuel filler in. This is what we did at Flight Crafters as per their 

recommendation because of that very same thing. Your picture is the 

first time I've seen it. Is this the only place your experiencing it? I 

believe this is one of those manual fixes that needed to happen years 

ago. It's a problem everyone new about but never printed the fix.

Do not archive,

Jeff

A258 Flying off the 40



On Sep 13, 2006, at 3:53 PM, Steve Hagar wrote:



[quote] During the 6 yr build in AZ it recieved that of curing and more.  

 However the curing they are talking about is the post curing done on 

 the fiberglassyou lay up.   The gelcoated fuselage and wings are 

 basically fully processed  once you get them.  Other than the 

 fiberglass bits and pieces you add to them.

  

 Steve Hagar

 hagargs(at)earthlink.net

  

  

 ---

rehn(at)rockisland.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 2:35 pm Post subject: Moving fiberglass

Hi Steve

  Mine has done the same thing and is very visible. I  believe in time they all will do this if exposed to heat (and I live in the not  so sunny northwest) and assuming the same construction , I know a few years  ago Andy "fixed" the US demo before a show by sanding down and applying fill and  bid and refinishing. I believe he also went inside and reduced the attached area  of the fuel filler. I also believe he said that structurally there was no issue.  Mine has not been "fixed" yet and I tend not to notice it after 4  years.

 Jerry

 645XS

 Mono 914

 [quote]   ---

terrys(at)cisco.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 6:49 pm Post subject: Moving fiberglass

Hi Steve,

  

 A picture IS worth a thousand words, this does not look  like ours.  Our 'print-thru' areas are exact replications of the glass  bonded to the other (inside) side of the skin.  Yours seems more like  ripples in the fuselage.  I haven't seen anything like it  before.

  

 regards,

 Terry

  



   From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve  Hagar

Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 1:35 PM

To:  europa-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Moving  fiberglass

 

 Terry :

  

 I have seen what you are talking  about,  this seems  to be a little more extreme,  I have attached  a photo.

  

 Steve.

  

  Steve Hagar

 hagargs(at)earthlink.net (hagargs(at)earthlink.net)

  



  

 [quote]   ---

milneab(at)onetel.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 10:58 pm Post subject: Moving fiberglass

The version of the wrinkling or waving of the fuselage skin on my aircraft was

below the filler and before the joint line of the fuselage halves.  It was

caused by the fuel tank permanently distorting by the weight of fuel and

pulling on the filler tube via the 'flexible' hose.  The builder's manual

instructs the builder to strap this filler tube to the fuselage skin in the

wrinkled area.  The cure was to cut this strap and free the tube from the

fuselage.  The wrinkles came out over a period of days in hot weather (for the

UK: max about 32C). So far after 3 months I have seen no other effects around

the filler and the filler to fuselage seal.



Alasdair Milne G-CBYN



Quoting Steve Hagar <hagargs(at)earthlink.net>:



 	  Quote: 	
		   This issue had come up before some time ago and I need my memory 

 refreshed.  Am flying around in the hot AZ sun and differential 

 expansion is rearing its ugly head.  This is especially true on the 

 fuselage right around the area where the fuel filler maniflod is 

 attached to the inside.  Some very prominent waves have developed in 

 the skin here.  I am hesitant on filling these to smooth things out.  

 I am assuming that it is reasonable to expect that  things  will keep 

 on moving through temperature cycling.  Does anyone have any history 

 out there with flying in very hot weather and having the  fiberglass 

 move around?  Have you found this to settle down after some time?   

 Has anyone come up with a different mounting routine for the manifold 

 after getting the ripples?



 Steve Hagar

 N40 SH

 A143

 13 hrs

 Steve Hagar

 hagargs(at)earthlink.net

fklein(at)orcasonline.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 7:15 am Post subject: Moving fiberglass

Jeff,



Can you more fully describe the "slice of foam"...thickness?...extent?

Was it bonded to the fuselage?...or does it "float" in some fashion?



Fred



On Tuesday, September 12, 2006, at 02:19 PM, JEFF ROBERTS wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Steve,

 It looks like the lay-up under the skin has come through as promised 

 to me if I didn't place a slice of foam under the skin before I 

 glassed the fuel filler in.

jeff(at)rmmm.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 10:56 am Post subject: Moving fiberglass

Fred,

It was a piece like the one under the door sill. We bonded it to the 

fuselage then covered it in 2 layers of bid. The goal is that the 

filler tube is not in direct contact with the skin. I cannot answer why 

this has kept the outside skin straight but I have never seen a 

problem. Others that have gone through the Florida build center have 

said the same.

Regards,

Jeff

A258 Headed to the airport tonight!

On Sep 13, 2006, at 10:14 AM, Fred Klein wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Jeff,

 Can you more fully describe the "slice of foam"...thickness?...extent?

 Was it bonded to the fuselage?...or does it "float" in some fashion?

 Fred

 On Tuesday, September 12, 2006, at 02:19 PM, JEFF ROBERTS wrote:

> Steve,

> It looks like the lay-up under the skin has come through as promised 

> to me if I didn't place a slice of foam under the skin before I 

> glassed the fuel filler in.

fklein(at)orcasonline.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 5:11 pm Post subject: Moving fiberglass

Jeff,



By referencing the piece of foam "under the door sill", I take it 

you're referring to the 1/8" thick foam sheet...(?)



Fred



On Wednesday, September 13, 2006, at 11:55 AM, JEFF ROBERTS wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Fred,

 It was a piece like the one under the door sill. We bonded it to the 

 fuselage then covered it in 2 layers of bid. The goal is that the 

 filler tube is not in direct contact with the skin. I cannot answer 

 why this has kept the outside skin straight but I have never seen a 

 problem. Others that have gone through the Florida build center have 

 said the same.

 Regards,

 Jeff

 A258 Headed to the airport tonight!

hagargs(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 5:52 pm Post subject: Moving fiberglass

Alasdair:



After thinking about it for awhile I have come to that conclusion.  The

plan is to get the dremel tool out and cut the straps attaching the

manifold to the fuselage skin.  Push the beast out in the driveway under

the AZ sun for a weekend and see if it flows out back.  I put a couple of

good ripples in my wing by carrying it improperly and the fiberglass flowed

out and smoothed nicely on a balmy 105F day.  The manifiold will be then

gingerly attached with some pliable RTV type material or a single strap

with a very large radius stress relief in it.



Thanks,



Steve



Steve Hagar

hagargs(at)earthlink.net

 	  Quote: 	
		   [Original Message]

 From: A B Milne <milneab(at)onetel.com>

 To: <europa-list(at)matronics.com>

 Date: 9/13/2006 12:03:19 AM

 Subject: Re: Moving fiberglass



 



 The version of the wrinkling or waving of the fuselage skin on my

aircraft was
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   below the filler and before the joint line of the fuselage halves.  It was

 caused by the fuel tank permanently distorting by the weight of fuel and

 pulling on the filler tube via the 'flexible' hose.  The builder's manual

 instructs the builder to strap this filler tube to the fuselage skin in

the
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   wrinkled area.  The cure was to cut this strap and free the tube from the

 fuselage.  The wrinkles came out over a period of days in hot weather

(for the
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   UK: max about 32C). So far after 3 months I have seen no other effects

around
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   the filler and the filler to fuselage seal.



 Alasdair Milne G-CBYN



 Quoting Steve Hagar <hagargs(at)earthlink.net>:



 > This issue had come up before some time ago and I need my memory 

 > refreshed.  Am flying around in the hot AZ sun and differential 

 > expansion is rearing its ugly head.  This is especially true on the 

 > fuselage right around the area where the fuel filler maniflod is 

 > attached to the inside.  Some very prominent waves have developed in 

 > the skin here.  I am hesitant on filling these to smooth things out.  

 > I am assuming that it is reasonable to expect that  things  will keep 

 > on moving through temperature cycling.  Does anyone have any history 

 > out there with flying in very hot weather and having the  fiberglass 

 > move around?  Have you found this to settle down after some time?   

 > Has anyone come up with a different mounting routine for the manifold 

 > after getting the ripples?

 >

 > Steve Hagar

 > N40 SH

 > A143

 > 13 hrs

 >

 >

 > Steve Hagar

 > hagargs(at)earthlink.net

jeff(at)rmmm.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 7:43 pm Post subject: Moving fiberglass

Yes. It's been a couple of years but it was about the same.

Jeff

A258 Just had the best evening of flying in the central USA in months!

On Sep 13, 2006, at 8:09 PM, Fred Klein wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Jeff,



 By referencing the piece of foam "under the door sill", I take it 

 you're referring to the 1/8" thick foam sheet...(?)



 Fred



 On Wednesday, September 13, 2006, at 11:55 AM, JEFF ROBERTS wrote:



> 

>

> Fred,

> It was a piece like the one under the door sill. We bonded it to the 

> fuselage then covered it in 2 layers of bid. The goal is that the 

> filler tube is not in direct contact with the skin. I cannot answer 

> why this has kept the outside skin straight but I have never seen a 

> problem. Others that have gone through the Florida build center have 

> said the same.

> Regards,

> Jeff

> A258 Headed to the airport tonight!

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