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Ray Allen Trim Servo Wiring

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jdubner(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 1:44 pm Post subject: Ray Allen Trim Servo Wiring

Can anyone shed some light on a question about the use of two Ray Allen

Company control stick grips with trim switches, two RAC relay decks, and

RAC servos for aileron and elevator trim?  The RAC "Wire schematic" is

attached.



Do both sets of trim switches (the corresponding switches from grip 1

and grip 2) connect to the points labeled Switch 1, Switch3, Switch4,

and Switch2?  To me the diagram doesn't make this clear.



Does anyone have a schematic diagram of a complete RAC trim system that

includes relay deck(s) and indicator(s)?  The RAC documentation spreads

out the applicable information between the stick grip and the servo

manuals and it is more of a pictorial than a schematic diagram.  I'd

particularly like to see what's inside the "relay deck".



Thanks,

Joe



-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Joe Dubner  K7JD  |  523 Cedar Avenue     |  users.lewiston.com/hth/jd/

Long-EZ 821RP     |  Lewiston, ID  83501  |  +1 208 305-2688

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

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craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 2:24 pm Post subject: Ray Allen Trim Servo Wiring

I'm not certain what is inside RAC's relay deck but this is how Infinity

says to wire their dual sticks with relays:



www.infinityaerospace.com/Flap2.pdf 



-- Craig

jdubner(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 1:52 am Post subject: Ray Allen Trim Servo Wiring

I didn't receive any meaningful responses to my original query but I

found a diagram on Bob's site (thanks, Bob!) that answers a lot of my

questions: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles//trim.pdf



Let me phrase my original question another way: do both (pilot and

copilot) trim switches connect (in parallel) to the ORN and GRN wires of

the "MAC SERVO RELAY DECK" in the above diagram?  I think so but I'd

like to hear from someone who has actually wired this system.



And what have others done to connect this "mini-rats nest" of small

gauge wires?  Between the two stick grips, two relay decks, two trim

servos and two needle-type indicators there must be two dozen

connections and not a single terminal to fasten to.



--

Joe

Long-EZ 821RP

Lewiston, ID

On 10-Jun-06 14:40 Joe Dubner wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Can anyone shed some light on a question about the use of two Ray Allen

 Company control stick grips with trim switches, two RAC relay decks, and

 RAC servos for aileron and elevator trim?  The RAC "Wire schematic" is

 attached.

 

 Do both sets of trim switches (the corresponding switches from grip 1

 and grip 2) connect to the points labeled Switch 1, Switch3, Switch4,

 and Switch2?  To me the diagram doesn't make this clear.

jschroeder(at)perigee.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 4:51 am Post subject: Ray Allen Trim Servo Wiring

JOe -



I sent you 2 or 3 .pdf files with the wiring we used for connecting the  

pilot and co-pilot trim switches. They show the relay deck connections in  

color coded wiring. Let me know if you did not get them and I'll  

re-transmit.



John Schroeder

On Wed, 14 Jun 2006 02:49:56 -0700, Joe Dubner <jdubner(at)yahoo.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I didn't receive any meaningful responses to my original query but I

 found a diagram on Bob's site (thanks, Bob!) that answers a lot of my

 questions: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles//trim.pdf



 Let me phrase my original question another way: do both (pilot and

 copilot) trim switches connect (in parallel) to the ORN and GRN wires of

 the "MAC SERVO RELAY DECK" in the above diagram?  I think so but I'd

 like to hear from someone who has actually wired this system.



 And what have others done to connect this "mini-rats nest" of small

 gauge wires?  Between the two stick grips, two relay decks, two trim

 servos and two needle-type indicators there must be two dozen

 connections and not a single terminal to fasten to.



 --

 Joe

 Long-EZ 821RP

 Lewiston, ID

 On 10-Jun-06 14:40 Joe Dubner wrote:

> Can anyone shed some light on a question about the use of two Ray Allen

> Company control stick grips with trim switches, two RAC relay decks, and

> RAC servos for aileron and elevator trim?  The RAC "Wire schematic" is

> attached.

>

> Do both sets of trim switches (the corresponding switches from grip 1

> and grip 2) connect to the points labeled Switch 1, Switch3, Switch4,

> and Switch2?  To me the diagram doesn't make this clear.






	


--

Hopperdhh(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 9:02 am Post subject: Ray Allen Trim Servo Wiring

Joe,

  

 I don't have the same servos and hookup that you do, but here is how I  handled all the wires coming down the control stick.

  

 I used DB-9 (Actually they are DE-9, I think) type computer  connectors.  These are usually gold plated and are very compact and  reliable connectors.  They are the style like on the back of your computer  for the parallel port or the old serial ports -- 2 rows of pins with one row  having 1 more than the other.  You could use DB-15 or DB-25.  Mount  one in a slot cut in one of the ribs near the base of the stick.  Or  you could just leave them loose and cable tie them in a position that keeps them  from chaffing, etc.  One connector of course becomes part of the  aircraft wiring.  The other connector is connected to the wires coming  down the stick with about 6 or 8 inches of extra wire.  They can be held by  2 screws or some styles have 2 snap over spring wires.  These are  available from Digikey or Radio Shack or any of the electronic or computer  stores.

  

 Dan Hopper

 RV-7A

  

  

  

  In a message dated 6/14/2006 8:42:31 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  jdubner(at)yahoo.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  And what    have others done to connect this "mini-rats nest" of small

gauge    wires?  Between the two stick grips, two relay decks, two trim

servos    and two needle-type indicators there must be two dozen

connections and not    a single terminal to fasten to.



--

Joe

Long-EZ 821RP

Lewiston,    ID

jdubner(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 10:18 am Post subject: Ray Allen Trim Servo Wiring

Answering my own question here so that others may profit from my

research ...



I just got off the phone with Scott at RAC and he confirmed that two (or

any number) of trim switches can be connected to each input wire of a

relay deck.  No isolation diodes are used with SPST switches to ground.



There is no inherent danger in activating multiple trim switches

simultaneously.  And grounding both relay deck input wires

simultaneously will provide no output to the trim servo, just as if no

switch was activated.



Note that this information applies to an installation that uses two G305

Stick Grips, two REL-1 Servo Relay Decks, and two T2-7A servos.  It does

not necessarily apply to *all* RAC trim installations.  For example, the

RAC website shows a wiring diagram for RS2 Rocker Switches that requires

isolation diodes unless the RS2 switches are rewired in some unspecified

fashion.  See http://www.rayallencompany.com/RACmedia/instructionstwoRS2.pdf



There's a lot of misinformation floating around.  When I spoke with

Scott I made a pitch for including real schematic diagrams of their

components (rather than a bewildering array of wiring diagrams) so one

could properly analyze their operation without spending a lot of effort

reverse engineering or making so many assumptions.  I don't think he was

convinced so I'd urge anyone else who has opportunity to ask RAC a

question to make the same request.



--

Joe



On 10-Jun-06 14:40 Joe Dubner wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Can anyone shed some light on a question about the use of two Ray Allen

 Company control stick grips with trim switches, two RAC relay decks, and

 RAC servos for aileron and elevator trim?  The RAC "Wire schematic" is

 attached.

 

 Do both sets of trim switches (the corresponding switches from grip 1

 and grip 2) connect to the points labeled Switch 1, Switch3, Switch4,

 and Switch2?  To me the diagram doesn't make this clear.

 

 Does anyone have a schematic diagram of a complete RAC trim system that

 includes relay deck(s) and indicator(s)?  The RAC documentation spreads

 out the applicable information between the stick grip and the servo

 manuals and it is more of a pictorial than a schematic diagram.  I'd

 particularly like to see what's inside the "relay deck".

 

 Thanks,

 Joe

 

 -----------------------------------------------------------------------

 Joe Dubner  K7JD  |  523 Cedar Avenue     |  users.lewiston.com/hth/jd/

 Long-EZ 821RP     |  Lewiston, ID  83501  |  +1 208 305-2688

 -----------------------------------------------------------------------

rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.N
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 12:18 pm Post subject: Ray Allen Trim Servo Wiring

Just some very basic information about Ray Allen Servos (or other DC Brush

Motors) that if you don't know, you should:



The motors used on my T4-5 and whatever model a Europa uses for pitch

(with indicator) are simple brush motors.



Reverse the polarity of the 2 wires going to the motor, and the motor

reverses.



If you connect the 2 wires going to the motor to each other, it will act

as a brake. In other words if the motor is spinning and you disconnect

power, you are relying on the drag from brushes, gears and load to stop

the motor. These brush motors are generators if you spin them. They will

slow up real quick but only if you put a load on them. Connecting the 2

leads is a good load (generator needs to work with shorted wires, thus

there is motor braking).



If you draw a schematic of what their reversible switch is doing, things

will become very clear. Specialized switch (nice job) that you need relays

to duplicate with mini stick switches.



When I was studying how to deal with switching control from left stick to

right stick for my 3 servo motors (Aileron Ray Allen, Pitch pay Allen and

Airmaster Prop) I do see that there are some installs that do not use

motor braking. I am incorporating Braking.



I went with a multi tier selector switch (will look up info if anyone is

interested in busting the budget) and 4 relays.



By using a brake, when you let go of switch there is not much in the way

of coasting. I think this will be enough control so that I will not need

to control motor speed.



Another note on controlling speed of a DC brush motor, you can just add

resistors, which will drop voltage. The motor will not develop as much

torque. Or you can install a pulse proportion electronic speed controller.

It will provide full voltage, but depending on selection will limit the on

time per second, thus slowing down the motor. Also more efficient. If you

fly model electrics you will appreciate this feature, also there is a lot

less heat developed in wasted energy (last 2 sentences same thing).



If you don't install a speed controller, it can not fail or make noise.



Last note while standing on my soap box, do not over drive throw of

whatever it is you are trying to drive. If you want 3/16 throw up and down

for roll trim tab, and you are getting 1/2 inch, besides being undesirable

in event of run away, it is working motor harder than it could, and moves

far faster than it could, and is more susceptible to stripping gears if

you have "Muppet's" (as Neville would say) bang into your tab. Increase

driven control arm, or add a intermediate long arm in, short arm out.



Off Box.



Ron Parigoris

zk-vii(at)rvproject.gen.n
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 2:42 pm Post subject: Ray Allen Trim Servo Wiring

All great stuff - I'm going through this at the moment (yesterday).....



Questions:



The Panasonic CF2-12V relay

(http://www.naisweb.com/e/relaye/mech_eng/pdf/mech_eng_cf.pdf) is designed

for car electric windows and provides a nice twin relay (and motor

breaking - I now note), however DigiKey needs 35 as a minimum order.....

Any other leads for a similar twin option - otherwise it is 4 singles +

diodes.....



Speed control:  Is it better for a low (regulated) voltage, or 12V pulsed

for a the 'slow' speed?  Pro / Cons?



Thanks,



Carl

--

ZK-VII - RV 7A QB - finishing? - New Zealand

http://www.rvproject.gen.nz/



[quote] --

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 5:25 pm Post subject: Ray Allen Trim Servo Wiring

On Jun 26, 2006, at 6:37 PM, Carl Morgan wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 vii(at)rvproject.gen.nz>



 All great stuff - I'm going through this at the moment  

 (yesterday).....



 Questions:



 The Panasonic CF2-12V relay

 (http://www.naisweb.com/e/relaye/mech_eng/pdf/mech_eng_cf.pdf) is  

 designed

 for car electric windows and provides a nice twin relay (and motor

 breaking - I now note), however DigiKey needs 35 as a minimum  

 order.....

 Any other leads for a similar twin option - otherwise it is 4  

 singles +

 diodes.....


	


You don't need fancy relays to have motor control with braking. For  

each trim motor you need two single-pole, double-throw (SPDT) relays.



Connect both NC contacts of the relays to ground. Connect both NO  

contacts of the relays to +12V. Connect the two leads coming from the  

trim motor to the armature (moving) contacts of the two relays, one  

wire to each relay. Wire up your trim switches from your yokes/sticks  

to energize the relay coils.



When neither relay is energized, both leads of the trim motor are  

connected to ground and since they are shorted, the motor will  

provide dynamic braking. If you energize one relay the motor will run  

in one direction. If you energize the other relay, the motor will run  

in the reverse direction. If you inadvertently energize both relays  

both leads from the motor get tied to +12 which shorts the motor  

leads together and provides braking. This is fail safe in case one  

person tries to activate trim in one direction while the other person  

tries to activate trim in the other direction. The trim motor doesn't  

run in that case. Fail safe.



 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Speed control:  Is it better for a low (regulated) voltage, or 12V  

 pulsed

 for a the 'slow' speed?  Pro / Cons?


	


Pulse width control for speed control is better but more expensive to  

do.

Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

_________________
Brian Lloyd
brian-yak at lloyd dot com
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

nuckollsr(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 5:57 pm Post subject: Ray Allen Trim Servo Wiring

At 08:13 PM 6/26/2006 +0000, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



Just some very basic information about Ray Allen Servos (or other DC Brush

Motors) that if you don't know, you should:



The motors used on my T4-5 and whatever model a Europa uses for pitch

(with indicator) are simple brush motors.



Reverse the polarity of the 2 wires going to the motor, and the motor

reverses.


	


   This is a permanent magnet motor . . . there are other motors that

   also use brushes that have three or perhaps 4-leads and have different

   requirements for reversing . . . but the motor you describe is VERY

   common.

 	  Quote: 	
		  If you connect the 2 wires going to the motor to each other, it will act

as a brake. In other words if the motor is spinning and you disconnect

power, you are relying on the drag from brushes, gears and load to stop

the motor. These brush motors are generators if you spin them. They will

slow up real quick but only if you put a load on them. Connecting the 2

leads is a good load (generator needs to work with shorted wires, thus

there is motor braking).


	


    This is called 'dynamic braking' and is recommended for most situations

    where motor coast after shut-off is a problem.

 	  Quote: 	
		  If you draw a schematic of what their reversible switch is doing, things

will become very clear. Specialized switch (nice job) that you need relays

to duplicate with mini stick switches.



When I was studying how to deal with switching control from left stick to

right stick for my 3 servo motors (Aileron Ray Allen, Pitch pay Allen and

Airmaster Prop) I do see that there are some installs that do not use

motor braking. I am incorporating Braking.



I went with a multi tier selector switch (will look up info if anyone is

interested in busting the budget) and 4 relays.


	


   Budget shouldn't be a problem. Relays with mounting feet and push-on

   spade terminals from Digi-Key. Goto http://digikey.com

   and search on:  G8P-1C2T-F-DC12



   These are SPDT relays with mounting feet, fast-on terminals,

   and cost $4.10 each. They look like this:



http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Relays/s704inst.jpg



 	  Quote: 	
		  By using a brake, when you let go of switch there is not much in the way

of coasting. I think this will be enough control so that I will not need

to control motor speed.


	


   Controlling motor speed is seldom an issue driven by whether

   or not the motor stops quickly . . . optimal trim rates are

   linked to indicated airspeed. Aircraft with wide range (greater

   than 2:1) difference in IAS for cruise versus over-the-fence

   generally benefit from adjustable rates for electrically driven

   trim systems.



   For the Lears, by the time pitch trim was slowed down sufficiently

   for optimum operation at cruise, the pilots had do start trimming

   10 miles out to get the machine down to approach speeds over the

   fence.

 	  Quote: 	
		  Another note on controlling speed of a DC brush motor, you can just add

resistors, which will drop voltage. The motor will not develop as much

torque.


	


   An un-quantified concern when the neophyte builder hasn't the foggiest

   notion of exactly how much torque is needed for a given task . . .

   he tries it and if it "works" then he goes on.



 	  Quote: 	
		    Or you can install a pulse proportion electronic speed controller.

It will provide full voltage, but depending on selection will limit the on

time per second, thus slowing down the motor. Also more efficient. If you

fly model electrics you will appreciate this feature, also there is a lot

less heat developed in wasted energy (last 2 sentences same thing).


	


   Trim systems are intermittent duty . . . both wattage and total

   energy dumped during trim operations is microscopic with compared

   with all other requirements for electrical energy. Selecting

   a linear versus duty cycle switching versus switch mode regulators

   for trim speed control may be an intellectually satisfying exercise

   but in the final analysis, I'll suggest that max performance

   (accurate, stable set-point), low parts count, low cost of implementation

   are high on the list of points to consider irrespective of which

   control philosophy is being considered.

 	  Quote: 	
		  If you don't install a speed controller, it can not fail or make noise.


	


   There are a number of variations on a theme downloadable from . . .



http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Flight/Trim



   but in particular . . .



http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Flight/Trim/trim6.pdf



   . . . where you see a two-speed trim system that's automatically

   set to high speed ops as soon as you extend any flaps. This is

   how it was switched on the Lear 35. All the part are available

   from Radio Shack or other sources . . .

 	  Quote: 	
		  Last note while standing on my soap box, do not over drive throw of

whatever it is you are trying to drive. If you want 3/16 throw up and down

for roll trim tab, and you are getting 1/2 inch, besides being undesirable

in event of run away, it is working motor harder than it could, and moves

far faster than it could, and is more susceptible to stripping gears if

you have "Muppet's" (as Neville would say) bang into your tab. Increase

driven control arm, or add a intermediate long arm in, short arm out.


	


   Absolutely! Far to many trim systems have way too much authority

   when allowed to drive to mechanical limits described by the kit or

   plans. During your fly off, see how much authority is offered by

   the as-built system and install mechanical stops or otherwise modify

   geometry of the linkage to limit mechanical travel to what's really

   needed.



   I've know several folks bend airplanes pretty badly (one totaled)

   because trim drove to a limit and surprised the pilot when the tail

   came up but before he had a lot of aerodynamic authority with controls.



   Bob . . .

rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.N
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 10:00 pm Post subject: Ray Allen Trim Servo Wiring

Hello Bob 



Thx. for chiming in.



Have a few comments****



 	  Quote: 	
		  >If you draw a schematic of what their reversible switch is doing, things

>will become clear>>


	


****Brians post spells out in words and relays exact what ray allen does

with switches. I was hoping some who read my post would sit down and draw

out and figure out this concept. Once concept is grasped, far easier to

exact apply to ones exact application.



 	  Quote: 	
		  >I went with a multi tier selector switch (will look up info if anyone is

>interested break the budget. It was more that $125 but lein busting the budget) and 4 relays.

 

    Budget shouldn't be a problem. Relays with mounting feet and push-on

    spade terminals from Digi-Key. Goto http://digikey.com

    and search on:  G8P-1C2T-F-DC12

 

    These are SPDT relays with mounting feet, fast-on terminals,

    and cost $4.10 each. They look like this:

 

 http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Relays/s704inst.jpg


	


****The multi tier selector switch I went with can break the budget, it

was more than $125 but less that $150. It is made up of stack-able high

reliability gold contact rated DC switched. Work of art with LEDs to

indicate Pilot or co-Pilot. I am using 2 relays per side ( 2 for pilot and

2 for co pilot "cheap hardware"). I could have gone with a Relay (cheap)

for side selection, but chose to go with the switch. My business is

copiers (since 1975) and have seen relays fail in every inconceivable way.

I trust my chosen selector switch more than a relay. I am relying on this

selector switch in addition to running pitch and roll trim, also prop

motor. If 1 side has a problem, switching to other hopeful will cure till

on the ground.

 

 	  Quote: 	
		  >By using a brake, when you let go of switch there is not much in the way

>of coasting. I think this will be enough control so that I will not need

>to control motor speed.

 

    Controlling motor speed is seldom an issue driven by whether

    or not the motor stops quickly . . . optimal trim rates are

    linked to indicated airspeed. Aircraft with wide range (greater

    than 2:1) difference in IAS for cruise versus over-the-fence

    generally benefit from adjustable rates for electrically driven

    trim systems.

 

    For the Lears, by the time pitch trim was slowed down sufficiently

    for optimum operation at cruise, the pilots had do start trimming

    10 miles out to get the machine down to approach speeds over the

    fence.

 

 

>Another note on controlling speed of a DC brush motor, you can just add

>resistors, which will drop voltage. The motor will not develop as much

>torque.

 

    An un-quantified concern when the neophyte builder hasn't the foggiest

    notion of exactly how much torque is needed for a given task . . .

    he tries it and if it "works" then he goes on.


	


****Your points are well taken. On a fair performance aeroplane like a

Europa, where the Mfg. depicts the servo, and supplies the switch which in

fact incorporates dynamic braking and only full motor speed, if one were

not aware that dynamic braking was designed into the equation, and builder

redesigned without, I suspect that it would be a bit too touchy for ones

taste at cruise. I am sure a pulse with modulation circuit, or a resistor

may help, but braking on a marginal fast system can be the deciding

factor. I have limited time on a europa, but found the pitch trim at

cruise lively and desirable. If it overshot just a bit my input, it may be

undesirable. I fooled with motor with and without braking during build,

braking makes thing awful precise. I will follow kinda sorta your mention

as to how to figure if enough torque is available with a dropping resistor

to slow motor speed "he tries it and if it "works" then he goes on" I will

do the same with Dynamic braking, and if I find that I want slower speed

of motor or 2 speeds, then I will install a speed controller. I would not

second guess the mfg. of a high performance craft that suggests a 2 or

more speed trim at first, if it were me, I would probably build as per

mfg. go fly and modify if I felt it was needed.



 

 	  Quote: 	
		  >Last note while standing on my soap box, do not over drive throw of

>whatever it is you are trying to drive. If you want 3/16 throw up and down

>for roll trim tab, and you are getting 1/2 inch, besides being undesirable

>in event of run away, it is working motor harder than it could, and moves

>far faster than it could, and is more susceptible to stripping gears if

>you have "Muppet's" (as Neville would say) bang into your tab. Increase

>driven control arm, or add a intermediate long arm in, short arm out.

 

    Absolutely! Far to many trim systems have way too much authority

    when allowed to drive to mechanical limits described by the kit or

    plans. During your fly off, see how much authority is offered by

    the as-built system and install mechanical stops or otherwise modify

    geometry of the linkage to limit mechanical travel to what's really

    needed.

 

    I've know several folks bend airplanes pretty badly (one totaled)

    because trim drove to a limit and surprised the pilot when the tail

    came up but before he had a lot of aerodynamic authority with controls.


	


**** Sorry for boring with this now triple mentioned point, but I think it

is important. Will mention benefits as they pertain to models and full

size, perhaps if someone who did not yet get it, this may trigger:

**If you have too much throw, any play in mechanical linkage will equate

to more free play than if you had it set where max. movement of servo was

equal to exact throw needed. Exact throw required equates to more precise

control.

**Too much throw makes trim tab move faster.

**Too much throw provides less force to trim tab and requires motor and

transmission to work harder compared to exact throws.

**Too much throw can grow to way too much throw when the thing runs away

and the internal limit switch fails. I suggest ripping apart servo and

looking at just what is in there, go ahead and scare yourself. As Bob

suggests Mechanical limits or geometry design is prudent. I will make

mention that Europa incorporates a friction damper for the T-Bar that

controls the Anti servo tab for pitch in the event the servo linkage

failed for any number of reasons. The same damper also has mechanical

stops. Without the damper amd a linkage failure, I don't want to be the

one to find out how much damage the subsequent flutter of the antiservo

tabs will do.



Ron Parigoris

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