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Dual Elevator Cables
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biglar

Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 457

Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 1:56 pm Post subject: Dual Elevator Cables

It's a fair hike from La Posada de Santa Fe to MV, (about 400  miles) but if you stop here en route, I'll scramble to play tour guide for  you......and for any other Kolb'ers who may stop by at any  time.     I've got a few picture stories put together on my  activities to and around Santa Fe, so anyone who's interested, let me know and  I'll send 'em on to  you.                         Lar.                   Do not Archive.

 Larry Bourne

Santa Fe, NM

www.gogittum.com

 [quote]   ---

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_________________
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Building Kolb Mk IIIC
"Vamoose"

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 3:22 pm Post subject: Dual Elevator Cables

Hi Ed,

 sorry if I have inadverdently trodden on your  toes..

 I think maybe you came into this thread partway  through as you seem to have missed the previous posts to which I was  replying.

  

 I was certainly not denigrating Kolbs. I have one,  and I agree with you that it is well designed, except for the flap handle, and  very strong.  I shall NOT be fitting dual cables. I was merely continuing a  discussion about the differing approaches to legislation in the US and the  UK.

  

 The comment about the length of time that was  apparently going to be taken in investigating  Daves sad accident did not  suggest for a moment that we don`t have accidents in  greater or lesser  numbers than you but merely making the point that if an accident(any accident)  occurs then the cause needs to be determined as quickly as possible.  If  the tail falls off a Rans at 1000 hours and I have 950 hours on mine I would  like to know NOW if it is a generic flaw or if the pilot sawed through half the  longerons to install an extra fuel tank. Not in six months time when someone has  finally got round to it.

  

 Another lister was applauding the fact that in the  US you could `do pretty much as you liked`. In fact I think that his words  were  "you could carve a plane out of cheese and provided the C of G was in  the right place it would pass". Apologies if I have misquoted but those were the  general sentiments. I was merely commenting. If it is not true dont blame me.  

  

 I agree, (we seem to agree about everything Ed,  whats the argument?) that regs don`t make an aircraft safe. Design does. But  what except regs ensures that a builder follows the design? Also, would you be  happy that any designer could market a plane without it being checked by an  outside source.? You couldn`t do that here.

  

 In the States you seem to be in the position that  you can change much more in the design without permission than we are in the UK.  Is that good or bad?  I don`t know. I would like to be able to change a  prop. or an engine or fiddle with the dihedral or extend the undercarriage  legs without getting approval but I have no expertise and the fact that I  am willig to take a chance on killing myself should not entitle me to hazard  some innocent bystander. We are working slowly towards your approach and I  suspect that in time we shall arrive at some middle point.

  

 Incidentally I have had carb icing , twice. Each  time it was cleared by opening the throttle. I didn`t just make up the idea. I  read it in a book.

  

 I am sorry if you find any of this an attack un the  US or on Kolb. Put it down to cabin fever.

  

 Cheers

  

 Pat

   [quote][b]

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pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 3:48 pm Post subject: Dual Elevator Cables

Did over regulation, on your side of the pond, prevent further "bad 

accidents"?>>



Good question John. I don`t know. On balance I think it probably did. It may 

well have stultified some exciting new developments too. Thats the trade 

off.



The main thing that happened was that the series of accidents put the whole 

sport in jeopardy. Committees were formed etc., and we were lucky enough 

that Anne Welch who had cut her teeth on the Gliding movement and was Sec of 

the BGA for years took an interest and was able to lay down enough 

guidelines that the government handed over regulation to the new committee 

instead of running it directly themselves.

Therefore we enjoy pretty much the status of the Gliding Assoc, and 

regulate, inspect, instruct etc., ourselves without too much outside 

interference.



Cheers



Pat

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d-m-hague(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 5:13 pm Post subject: Dual Elevator Cables

At 06:21 PM 12/3/2006, pat ladd wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  In the States you seem to be in the position that you can change much more in the design without permission than we are in the UK. Is that good or bad?  I don`t know. I would like to be able to change a prop. or an engine or fiddle with the dihedral or extend the undercarriage legs without getting approval but I have no expertise and the fact that I am willig to take a chance on killing myself should not entitle me to hazard some innocent bystander. We are working slowly towards your approach and I suspect that in time we shall arrive at some middle point. 	


 Pat, there are two sets of regs here.  If it's two seats, or over 254 lbs, factory built you can't change much; homebuilt, you have to register it as experimental and go through inspections, test flying in a restricted area, etc.  You can change pretty much anything when you build it but you still have to get it approved for flight.



 If it's under 254 lbs and single seat (i.e. ultralight), you can do virtually anything... but the ultralight regs prohibit you from flying, at ANY altitude, over any congested area or open air assembly of persons.  So our regs DO protect the innocent bystander either way, but you're free to kill yourself flying solo.



                                 -Dana

 --

 --

 For every new foolproof invention there is a new and improved fool.    [quote][b]

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pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 2:03 am Post subject: Dual Elevator Cables

once they determine it was a legal ultralight, they leave it up to local law 

enforcement to conduct any investigation>>



Hi Dana,



thats interesting. Here an ultralight, inside the ultralight legal spec. is 

treated exactly like any other aircraft. No exemptions for low flying, 500 

ft rule etc

There are no local laws which could be invoked, therefore all infringements 

concern the CAA not the local police. The local coroner would probably hold 

an inquest in the case of a fatality but after official identification it 

would be adjourned pending the result of the CAA investigation. Any claim 

against the pilot by someone who has been hurt would be pursued in the 

civil, not the criminal court. Of course the result of the CAA investigation 

would be crucial in such a case.

We do not have such a thing as an unregistered plane.



Cheers



Pat



do not archive

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pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 9:03 am Post subject: Dual Elevator Cables

<<If it's two seats, or over 254  lbs,factory built you can't change much; homebuilt, you have to register it as  experimental and go through inspections, test flying in a restricted area,  etc.  You can change pretty much anything when you build it but you still  

have to get it approved for flight.

  

 If it's under 254 lbs and single seat (i.e.  ultralight), you can do virtually anything... but the ultralight regs prohibit  you from flying, at ANY altitude, over any congested area or open air assembly  of persons.>>

  

 Thanks Dana,

 here both single seat and two seater are  microlights (as we call them) There is no difference between kit and factory  built. Spec is not more than 2 seats. max stall 35knots, Max All Up weight,300kg  (662lbs) single seat. 450Kg (993 lbs) twin seat. Above those weights it becomes  an `A` licence machine. We have Kolbs operating here as `A` category. But its a  whole new ball game regarding maintenance, flying licence, medicals  etc.,.

  

 There is movement towards a deregulated class and  the Kolb dealer Mike Moulai had an example (Firestar?) on show at our major  aviation Exhibition over the weekend. With our background it is unlikely that  `deregulated` will mean quite as much freedom as many here would like. We can  hope. Nothing is set in stone yet.

  

 Flying over congested area and crowds AT ANY HEIGHT  applies here also. I always applied the rule `high enough to glide clear` until  I was hauled over the coals by an instructor on a check flight. 

  

 Cheers

  

 Pat

  

 do not archive

   [quote][b]

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ceengland(at)bellsouth.ne
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 5:53 pm Post subject: Dual Elevator Cables

Dana Hague wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   At 06:21 PM 12/3/2006, pat ladd wrote:

> In the States you seem to be in the position that you can change much 

> more in the design without permission than we are in the UK. Is that 

> good or bad?  I don`t know. I would like to be able to change a prop. 

> or an engine or fiddle with the dihedral or extend the undercarriage 

> legs without getting approval but I have no expertise and the fact 

> that I am willig to take a chance on killing myself should not 

> entitle me to hazard some innocent bystander. We are working slowly 

> towards your approach and I suspect that in time we shall arrive at 

> some middle point.

 Pat, there are two sets of regs here.  If it's two seats, or over 254 

 lbs, factory built you can't change much; homebuilt, you have to 

 register it as experimental and go through inspections, test flying in 

 a restricted area, etc.  You can change pretty much anything when you 

 build it but you still have to get it approved for flight.

 If it's under 254 lbs and single seat (i.e. ultralight), you can do 

 virtually anything... but the ultralight regs prohibit you from 

 flying, at ANY altitude, over any congested area or open air assembly 

 of persons.  So our regs DO protect the innocent bystander either way, 

 but you're free to kill yourself flying solo.

                                 -Dana

 --

 --

 For every new foolproof invention there is a new and improved fool.

 	  Quote: 	
		   For Pat, just a little bit of extra clarification on the Experimental 

 Homebuilt vs. U. S.  'Part 103' (of the FAA regs) Ultralite regs:

Under 254 lbs, 1 seat, less than 5 gal fuel capacity, under 55kts top 

speed, less than 24 kts stall speed can qualify as a Part 103 Ultralite 

& there is no registration, training, reporting, maintenance/inspection 

schedule etc required.

http://www.ccnow.com/cgi-local/sc_cart.cgi?2170208198401745

You can register one of these as an Experimental Homebuilt if it wasn't 

built commercially (meaning 51% was built for personal education or 

recreation) just like larger homebuilts, but I don't know why anyone would.

Experimental Homebuilts can be virtually any size/weight/speed/number of 

seats but must meet the 51% rule above. These must be registered & get 

registration numbers just like factory built planes. The rules say no 

flight over densely populated areas 'except in the process of takeoff or 

landing' but these days this is largely a political thing to keep the 

masses from complaining. Air traffic control will often route you 

directly over a major city if you ask to transistion their airspace 

while on a cross-country, if it keeps you out of the way of traffic at 

their airport. *Anyone* (even a dog or a chimp) can make *any* repair or 

modification to an Experimental Homebuilt. If it's considered to be a 

'major' modification, the owner must notify the FAA of the change & get 

a test area approved for 5 hours of flight test time after the mod. 

Details on the test proceedure after a mod vary slightly depending on 

the rules in effect when the plane got its original Operating 

Limitations, but you get the idea. Experimentals must be inspected once 

a year by either someone with an airframe & powerplant ticket from the 

FAA, or by the holder of the Repairman's Certificate for that particular 

plane (meaning the builder). You've got to have the word 'Experimental' 

in big letters in the cockpit so any passenger is expected to know he's 

taking his life in his hands if he gets in the plane. In the USA, even 

with 300 million people the odds of hitting anyone on the ground are 

almost unmeasurably small. These are very good rules, just like the 

provision in our constitution that guarantees us the right to 'keep and 

bear arms', which was put in place to allow us to protect ourselves from 

a corrupt government, even if it's our own.

Hope this helps...

Charlie

flying my 4th (purchased) homebuilt, building another

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pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 6:45 am Post subject: Dual Elevator Cables

the word 'Experimental' in big letters in the cockpit so any passenger is 

expected to know he's taking his life in his hands if he gets in the 

plane.>>



Hi Charlie,

we have a little  piece of paper about twice as big as a postage stamp stuck 

up somewhere in the cockpit with a note that `this plane is not built to 

accepted aeronautical standards`.



Serves the same purpose I suppose. The first line of defence if some some 

smart guy sues you.



Cheers



Pat

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