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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
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 Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 8:20 am Post subject: Air system 'stuff' |
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Doc,
The 74, 78 80 and 85 are identical when it comes to air system design
and landing gear operation. Some of the parts are different, but the
design and operation are the same. What are you talking about "the gear
is beefier"? Where are you getting this information? I am talking
YAK-50's here ok? You are passing unsupported assertions. Give me the
different part numbers you are talking about. Example, my YAK-50 has
Cleveland wheels and hyd. Toe brakes. That does not mean the factory
put that stuff there!
Regarding springs, a lot of them have been changed over the years as
they have rusted out. Springs are very critical. I think you are
assuming that since you see different parts on different 50's that the
factory used different parts. Realize that these aircraft have gone
through many owners and locations. A lot of mechs have changed parts
from stock. Most especially springs.
The only change in the fuel system was adding the Aux Tank.
We are not talking about YAK-18A's, and we are not talking about CJ6's.
We are talking about YAK-50's. Please stop misdirecting the discussion.
As regards the string of events that lead to an accident, yours or
anyone else's, you are absolutely correct. But I am not trying to
discuss that chain of events.
If you are telling me you DID check BOTH GREEN LIGHTS ON showing "down
and locked" and then you tell me that BOTH gear then collapsed after
landing due to some kind of air leak, that is just next to impossible.
You would have to have had BOTH landing gear switches out of rig. One
of them being slightly misadjusted, I could believe is possible. Both
of them being out of adjustment the exact same way, to the exact same
degree... the odds are next to impossible.
Loss of air pressure due to WHATEVER reason... actuators, broken lines,
broken chevron seals, main air valve not open, WHATEVER... can indeed
caused the gear to not come down and lock. The gear can be released
from the uplocks if there is ANY residual air pressure. It will then
come down and kind of HANG there. It will not lock and you will not
have both DOWN AND LOCKED green lights come on. This is probably what
happened to you. Something similar happened to me when my left gear was
not down and locked because the attach bolt had been over-tightened...
main gear leg attach bolt. But that is also "another story".
Regardless. Once a YAK-50 landing gear is down and locked, loss of air
pressure will not cause it to collapse... .and that statement applies to
every YAK-50 ever made.
The reason I am posting this in public is because you are giving the
impression to folks that this is not true. That loss of air pressure
after the gear is down and locked CAN cause the gear to collapse after
landing. I'm sorry, but leaving that kind of misinformation as truth
has to be corrected.
Loss of air pressure after the landing gear is down and locked on a
YAK-50 will never cause the landing gear to collapse.
Mark Bitterlich
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crobin(at)skyvantage.com
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viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
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| Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 7:03 am Post subject: Air system 'stuff' |
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Mark,
I honestly do not remember if I saw green. I do remember hearing the sound of the gear lowering and remember feeling a thump. I thought I did but my lights are dimmer in the 50 than the 52. As I turned base final I looked at the gear handle, then slipped the AC to watch the 195 back taxi off the grass runway with me on final. I was trying to decide if I was going around for a second time. That was the same guy that said he saw my gear down however. Then there was the Jahova's Witness that stopped on airport road to watch the "fighter" land with his son before he turned into the drive way for the "Freedom Hall" across the street. He did not see the touchdown but did see the plane after it was sliding along on it's nose. He said my gear was down but thought one looked "a little funny". Whatever that meant.
I'll remember that could never happen if I ever have another WTFO moment like this again since you were lucky enough to ferry a 50 across the US with a known air leak without any problem.
So I won't worry about the brittle looking aluminum partially crimped air line that goes from the main air bottle to the T fitting for what looks like the actuator lines fittings in the fuselage on the front of the spar box as they disappear into a hole in the bulkhead. Found that using my fiber optic bore scope Sat. Can not pull the tanks out yet because the insurance company has not made a decision. Got to replace or repair the AUX tank since it has developed a crack and a leak also since the slide on the grass.
Trust me, I'll be replacing those lines that appear to have been there for a long time. I am replacing them with braided Aeroquip lines. There is a long list of "I wills" that will be done concerning the air and gear systems before Red Nose is returned to service. Who knows, the gear may fold inward and flush with the wing root before I'm done. I've already taken care of that wart on the chin by crushing the oil cooler flush with the fuselage.
Do I need to worry about the oil leaking out of the carb throat or can I just replace the shattered blades, light her off, and go fly? May smoke a little more for a short time though.
The engine was at dead idle after all. Tongue and cheek ... Wink... Wink.
Doc
Sent from my iPad
On Jun 8, 2013, at 11:17 AM, "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil> wrote:
[quote]
Doc,
The 74, 78 80 and 85 are identical when it comes to air system design
and landing gear operation. Some of the parts are different, but the
design and operation are the same. What are you talking about "the gear
is beefier"? Where are you getting this information? I am talking
YAK-50's here ok? You are passing unsupported assertions. Give me the
different part numbers you are talking about. Example, my YAK-50 has
Cleveland wheels and hyd. Toe brakes. That does not mean the factory
put that stuff there!
Regarding springs, a lot of them have been changed over the years as
they have rusted out. Springs are very critical. I think you are
assuming that since you see different parts on different 50's that the
factory used different parts. Realize that these aircraft have gone
through many owners and locations. A lot of mechs have changed parts
from stock. Most especially springs.
The only change in the fuel system was adding the Aux Tank.
We are not talking about YAK-18A's, and we are not talking about CJ6's.
We are talking about YAK-50's. Please stop misdirecting the discussion.
As regards the string of events that lead to an accident, yours or
anyone else's, you are absolutely correct. But I am not trying to
discuss that chain of events.
If you are telling me you DID check BOTH GREEN LIGHTS ON showing "down
and locked" and then you tell me that BOTH gear then collapsed after
landing due to some kind of air leak, that is just next to impossible.
You would have to have had BOTH landing gear switches out of rig. One
of them being slightly misadjusted, I could believe is possible. Both
of them being out of adjustment the exact same way, to the exact same
degree... the odds are next to impossible.
Loss of air pressure due to WHATEVER reason... actuators, broken lines,
broken chevron seals, main air valve not open, WHATEVER... can indeed
caused the gear to not come down and lock. The gear can be released
from the uplocks if there is ANY residual air pressure. It will then
come down and kind of HANG there. It will not lock and you will not
have both DOWN AND LOCKED green lights come on. This is probably what
happened to you. Something similar happened to me when my left gear was
not down and locked because the attach bolt had been over-tightened...
main gear leg attach bolt. But that is also "another story".
Regardless. Once a YAK-50 landing gear is down and locked, loss of air
pressure will not cause it to collapse... .and that statement applies to
every YAK-50 ever made.
The reason I am posting this in public is because you are giving the
impression to folks that this is not true. That loss of air pressure
after the gear is down and locked CAN cause the gear to collapse after
landing. I'm sorry, but leaving that kind of misinformation as truth
has to be corrected.
Loss of air pressure after the landing gear is down and locked on a
YAK-50 will never cause the landing gear to collapse.
Mark Bitterlich
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viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
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| Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 7:07 am Post subject: Air system 'stuff' |
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Interesting. Did you look at Parker also? Will be interested in how they work.
Doc
Sent from my iPad
On Jun 9, 2013, at 9:09 AM, Cory Robin <crobin(at)skyvantage.com (crobin(at)skyvantage.com)> wrote:
[quote]I found a source of a back pressure relief valve. Rather than it popping off and reducing the pressure, it maintains the pressure at your pre-set value.
I've ordered a couple to test them.
https://straval.com/catlist-back-pressure-regulators/back-pressure-regulator-piston-angle-valve-threaded-bps-05
[b]
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crobin(at)skyvantage.com
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| Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 8:14 am Post subject: Air system 'stuff' |
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| Quote: | Doc Wrote: > Â Interesting. Did you look at Parker also? Will be interested in how they work.
|
Yes, I did look at the Parker ones - the lead time of 4-6 weeks was less than exciting - they look like decent air relief valves. Â I thought I'd find something that would keep the system at an extremely stable pressure. Â While I haven't owned or flown a Yak, the standard relief valve seems to be of a simple and reliable design, but would not bleed air in the same manner a regulated back-pressure relief valve would. Â In the Wilga, air is only used for starting, so consistent pressure is more of a 'nice to have'.. Â But I thought I'd do the community a service by trying this out and sharing the results.
Since the air system components seem to be of the same flare angle, it should be easy to install these in any air system using standard high pressure 1/4 NPT fittings.
I've rigged up a little bench test system with a scuba tank that I'll be running some pressure tests with before it goes in the aircraft.  But the specifications and relief  flow rates while maintaining consistent back pressure in the system are very promising.
[quote][b]
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ReadeG(at)cairnwood.com
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| Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 8:28 am Post subject: Air system 'stuff' |
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Also - I believe the Wilga does not have the reducing valve for starting that the Yak 52 has.
Reade
On Jun 9, 2013, at 10:16, "Cory Robin" <crobin(at)skyvantage.com (crobin(at)skyvantage.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | > Doc Wrote: > Interesting. Did you look at Parker also? Will be interested in how they work.
Yes, I did look at the Parker ones - the lead time of 4-6 weeks was less than exciting - they look like decent air relief valves. I thought I'd find something that would keep the system at an extremely stable pressure. While I haven't owned or flown a Yak, the standard relief valve seems to be of a simple and reliable design, but would not bleed air in the same manner a regulated back-pressure relief valve would. In the Wilga, air is only used for starting, so consistent pressure is more of a 'nice to have'.. But I thought I'd do the community a service by trying this out and sharing the results.
Since the air system components seem to be of the same flare angle, it should be easy to install these in any air system using standard high pressure 1/4 NPT fittings.
I've rigged up a little bench test system with a scuba tank that I'll be running some pressure tests with before it goes in the aircraft. But the specifications and relief flow rates while maintaining consistent back pressure in the system are very promising.
|
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viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
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| Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 9:02 am Post subject: Air system 'stuff' |
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Copy all.
Doc
Sent from my iPad
On Jun 9, 2013, at 11:26 AM, "Genzlinger, Reade" <ReadeG(at)cairnwood.com (ReadeG(at)cairnwood.com)> wrote:
[quote]Also - I believe the Wilga does not have the reducing valve for starting that the Yak 52 has.
Reade
On Jun 9, 2013, at 10:16, "Cory Robin" <crobin(at)skyvantage.com (crobin(at)skyvantage.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | > Doc Wrote: > Interesting. Did you look at Parker also? Will be interested in how they work.
Yes, I did look at the Parker ones - the lead time of 4-6 weeks was less than exciting - they look like decent air relief valves. I thought I'd find something that would keep the system at an extremely stable pressure. While I haven't owned or flown a Yak, the standard relief valve seems to be of a simple and reliable design, but would not bleed air in the same manner a regulated back-pressure relief valve would. In the Wilga, air is only used for starting, so consistent pressure is more of a 'nice to have'.. But I thought I'd do the community a service by trying this out and sharing the results.
Since the air system components seem to be of the same flare angle, it should be easy to install these in any air system using standard high pressure 1/4 NPT fittings.
I've rigged up a little bench test system with a scuba tank that I'll be running some pressure tests with before it goes in the aircraft. But the specifications and relief flow rates while maintaining consistent back pressure in the system are very promising.
|
[b]
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dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
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| Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:21 am Post subject: Air system 'stuff' |
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Reade,
What "reducing valve" for starting does the Yak 52 have?
Dennis
A. Dennis Savarese
334-285-6263
334-546-8182 (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1
On 6/9/2013 11:26 AM, Genzlinger, Reade wrote:
| Quote: | Also - I believe the Wilga does not have the reducing valve for
starting that the Yak 52 has.
Reade
On Jun 9, 2013, at 10:16, "Cory Robin" <crobin(at)skyvantage.com
<mailto:crobin(at)skyvantage.com>> wrote:
> > Doc Wrote: > Interesting. Did you look at Parker also? Will be
> interested in how they work.
>
> Yes, I did look at the Parker ones - the lead time of 4-6 weeks was
> less than exciting - they look like decent air relief valves. I
> thought I'd find something that would keep the system at an extremely
> stable pressure. While I haven't owned or flown a Yak, the standard
> relief valve seems to be of a simple and reliable design, but would
> not bleed air in the same manner a regulated back-pressure relief
> valve would. In the Wilga, air is only used for starting, so
> consistent pressure is more of a 'nice to have'.. But I thought I'd
> do the community a service by trying this out and sharing the results.
>
> Since the air system components seem to be of the same flare angle,
> it should be easy to install these in any air system using standard
> high pressure 1/4 NPT fittings.
>
> I've rigged up a little bench test system with a scuba tank that I'll
> be running some pressure tests with before it goes in the aircraft.
> But the specifications and relief flow rates while maintaining
> consistent back pressure in the system are very promising.
> *
> *
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ReadeG(at)cairnwood.com
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| Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 12:02 pm Post subject: Air system 'stuff' |
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I believe I have it reversed! The Wilga has a step down valve that
takes system pressure at the bottle to something like 370psi. The Wilga
prop spins very slowly at start compared to the Yak.
Sorry about the mix up.
Reade Genzlinger
Cairnwood Cooperative Corporation
215.914.0370
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crobin(at)skyvantage.com
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| Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 1:49 pm Post subject: Air system 'stuff' |
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I'm not sure that this is true.Â
Cory Robin
Chief Executive Officer
SkyVantage Corporation
5526 West 13400 South, Suite 207
Herriman, UTÂ 84096
United States of America
US Ph. +1-801-649-2925 ext. 301
UK Ph. +44Â 020 7101 9481 ext. 301
US Fax. +1-419-828-6643
Skype: skyvantage (calls only) ext. 301
Email: crobin(at)skyvantage.com (crobin(at)skyvantage.com)
Website: http://www.skyvantage.com
Join us on Facebook!  www.facebook.com/skyvantage
On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 2:00 PM, Genzlinger, Reade <ReadeG(at)cairnwood.com (ReadeG(at)cairnwood.com)> wrote:
[quote] --> Yak-List message posted by: "Genzlinger, Reade" <ReadeG(at)cairnwood.com (ReadeG(at)cairnwood.com)>
I believe I have it reversed! Â The Wilga has a step down valve that
takes system pressure at the bottle to something like 370psi. Â The Wilga
prop spins very slowly at start compared to the Yak.
Sorry about the mix up.
Reade Genzlinger
Cairnwood Cooperative Corporation
215.914.0370
--
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ReadeG(at)cairnwood.com
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| Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 2:17 pm Post subject: Air system 'stuff' |
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On the 104-80 Wilga there is a valve under the rudder pedal floorboard and slightly forward to which the high pressure air line connects. This valve reduces the pressure to something around 370 psi- I've had to service this item but it's been a number of years since I sold the Wilga so the numbers might be off. I have the maintenance and service manuals if anyone is interested. Also some spare parts.
Reade
On Jun 9, 2013, at 15:51, "Cory Robin" <crobin(at)skyvantage.com> wrote:
| Quote: | I'm not sure that this is true.
Cory Robin
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
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| Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:20 am Post subject: Air system 'stuff' |
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Cory,
Sorry to disagree, but just in the details. The valves that you referenced are indeed pop-off valves. They open to release or by-pass pressure to keep at a maintained value, exactly as does the pressure relief valve that is in there now. That said, they are of much better design and should work much better than the ones that are in there now, if you get one rated for the pressure and flow for our application.
Taken from the company's web site:
"Although this valve operates very similar to a relief valve which is usually designed to release pressure quickly as soon as the set pressure is exceeded , this valve is designed to relieve pressure more gradually with changes in flow resulting in fewer pressure spikes when the valve opens and closes. This is a direct-acting valve with an adjustable spring operating against a piston subjected to the inlet pressure of the valve. Increasing the spring compression will increase the system or line pressure to be maintained. Reducing the spring compression will reduce the system or line pressure to be maintained. "
The summation:
"An increase in system pressure beyond the set point will cause the main valve to open and relieve or bypass the excess pressure."
This is EXACTLY how our present valves work, but these are easier to get and maintain.
Mark
p.s. Probably a darn good replacement.
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dougsappllc(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:46 am Post subject: Air system 'stuff' |
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Cory,Mark is correct in all he said, however the valve which you have selected would be somewhat prone to problems if your upstream air system is not 100% free of foreign material, such as old std steel rusted spring parts, dirt, grease, etc. These valves are intended for use in clean environments, not the somewhat dirtier systems of the CJ6. Placing the valve just after a high quality filter would both extend it's life and lower the probability of reoccurring maintenance issues I'm sure.
Best,
Doug
On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 11:12 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)> wrote:
[quote]--> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)>
Cory,
Sorry to disagree, but just in the details. The valves that you referenced are indeed pop-off valves. They open to release or by-pass pressure to keep at a maintained value, exactly as does the pressure relief valve that is in there now. That said, they are of much better design and should work much better than the ones that are in there now, if you get one rated for the pressure and flow for our application.
Taken from the company's web site:
"Although this valve operates very similar to a relief valve which is usually designed to release pressure quickly as soon as the set pressure is exceeded , this valve is designed to relieve pressure more gradually with changes in flow resulting in fewer pressure spikes when the valve opens and closes. This is a direct-acting valve with an adjustable spring operating against a piston subjected to the inlet pressure of the valve. Increasing the spring compression will increase the system or line pressure to be maintained. Reducing the spring compression will reduce the system or line pressure to be maintained. "
The summation:
"An increase in system pressure beyond the set point will cause the main valve to open and relieve or bypass the excess pressure."
This is EXACTLY how our present valves work, but these are easier to get and maintain.
Mark
p.s. Probably a darn good replacement.
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
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| Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 11:15 am Post subject: Air system 'stuff' |
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Thanks for the expert advice Doug. I had never even considered that.
By the way, there is an air filter of sorts in the YAK-50. It is
located on the "T" air divider area where all the check valves are
located (four of them). It appears to be a circular device with
fittings at both ends and is possibly filled with something like steel
wool. In any case, whatever was in mine came all to pieces and junked
up the check valves.
Again: Good advice on a better filter. Hmmm.
Mark
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viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
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| Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 1:15 pm Post subject: Air system 'stuff' |
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Mark,
Since you have an 80, does Yours have the filter oriented in the vertical vs horizontal like mine in the pictures. If so you could put Doug's desiccant filter in line easily I would think. With mine I'm still searching for a point to mount it to that does not require 3 feet of aeroquip hoses each way.
As for my aluminum hoses, they were once soft. They are annealed and brittle now. Had a hell of a time putting a new flair in one of the lines for the new air tank. Finally just replaced it!
Should have done in every damned one of them when everything stripped out of the fuselage rebuilding all of the copper sleeved push pull cables to the throttle, louvers, and the prop governor.
Fun times fabricating new threaded ends and swaging them on the cable. Do that one after you have threaded the new cable through the new copper tubing otherwise you are going to call you ancestry really ugly names!
Doc
Sent from my iPad
On Jun 10, 2013, at 2:10 PM, "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil> wrote:
[quote]
Thanks for the expert advice Doug. I had never even considered that.
By the way, there is an air filter of sorts in the YAK-50. It is
located on the "T" air divider area where all the check valves are
located (four of them). It appears to be a circular device with
fittings at both ends and is possibly filled with something like steel
wool. In any case, whatever was in mine came all to pieces and junked
up the check valves.
Again: Good advice on a better filter. Hmmm.
Mark
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dougsappllc(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 1:43 pm Post subject: Air system 'stuff' |
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Mark,It has been my experience that 75% or more of the failures of QSF2A valves (3 port valves to you 52 types), and 12-5522-00 (5 port valve) are caused not by moisture/rust but by grit and or pieces of rusted springs. Years of rusty springs and poor maintenance has resulted in the majority of the air systems out there being contaminated to some degree. To combat the base problem we switched to all stainless steel springs in most all of our valves quite some time ago. The secondary problem of contaminated pneumatic problems is harder to solve as flushing the system out is very difficult. We are experimenting with the installation of a second stainless steel desiccant filter installed just prior to the rear gear valve, if successful this should vastly extend the life of these expensive valves.
Best,
Doug
On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 12:10 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)> wrote:
[quote]--> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)>
Thanks for the expert advice Doug. I had never even considered that.
By the way, there is an air filter of sorts in the YAK-50. It is
located on the "T" air divider area where all the check valves are
located (four of them). It appears to be a circular device with
fittings at both ends and is possibly filled with something like steel
wool. In any case, whatever was in mine came all to pieces and junked
up the check valves.
Again: Good advice on a better filter. Hmmm.
Mark
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rmhou(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 3:06 pm Post subject: Air system 'stuff' |
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Doug,
In Feb. this year, my CJ-6 had a failed check valve (right side firewall connected to emergency air tank). Pieces of this rusty spring went through the entire system and caused havoc on other check valves, front landing gear valve, main air valve and QDF-1 air start solenoid valve. I overhauled and/or replaced damaged valves except the QDF-1.
I did not replace my QDF-1 because it had less than 25 hours on it at the time. Reading yours and others' old posts on this list, I tried flushing the QDF-1 with WD-40 and it worked. The initial WD-40 flush was dark brown in color. After half dozen flushes, WD-40 came out clear, and QDF-1 would work for a few starts before it gunked up and failed again. I would repeat the WD-40 flush to keep QDF-1 going, and each time it kept going for a longer period than before. My last WD-40 flush was more than 2 months ago, and I had more than a dozen engine starts since then without issue.
Based on this experience, do you think the QDF-1 air inlet would be a good location for an additional filter?
Robin
--- On Mon, 6/10/13, doug sapp <dougsappllc(at)gmail.com> wrote:
[quote]
From: doug sapp <dougsappllc(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Air system 'stuff'
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Monday, June 10, 2013, 2:41 PM
Mark,It has been my experience that 75% or more of the failures of QSF2A valves (3 port valves to you 52 types), and 12-5522-00 (5 port valve) are caused not by moisture/rust but by grit and or pieces of rusted springs. Years of rusty springs and poor maintenance has resulted in the majority of the air systems out there being contaminated to some degree. To combat the base problem we switched to all stainless steel springs in most all of our valves quite some time ago. The secondary problem of contaminated pneumatic problems is harder to solve as flushing the system out is very difficult. We are experimenting with the installation of a second stainless steel desiccant filter installed just prior to the rear gear valve, if successful this should vastly extend the life of these expensive valves.
Best,
Doug
On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 12:10 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <[url=/mc/compose?to=mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil]mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil[/url]> wrote:
[quote]--> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <[url=/mc/compose?to=mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil]mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil[/url]>
Thanks for the expert advice Doug. I had never even considered that.
By the way, there is an air filter of sorts in the YAK-50. It is
located on the "T" air divider area where all the check valves are
located (four of them). It appears to be a circular device with
fittings at both ends and is possibly filled with something like steel
wool. In any case, whatever was in mine came all to pieces and junked
up the check valves.
Again: Good advice on a better filter. Hmmm.
Mark
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dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
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| Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 3:58 am Post subject: Air system 'stuff' |
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Since neither the CJ nor the Yak 52, which have 100% identical gear and
flap selectors for both front and rear cockpits, the rear cockpit gear
and flap selectors are no longer used as was originally intended; as
primary trainers. Therefore gear and flap selectors in the rear cockpit
serve no functional benefit other than to pass the air pressure through
them to the front cockpit. Why not fabricate a 3 valve and 5 valve
bypass 'block' which could replace both of these "rarely ever used"
components and eliminate potential failures in the pneumatic system?
This is not difficult to do. In fact, I am pretty sure Jim Goolsby
modified his rear gear selector and created a bypass. Thus he eliminated
the potential failure of the unit. I personally fabricated a bypass
configuration for one Yak 52 and completely removed the rear gear
selector. Replacing a rear gear selector in a Yak 52 is far more
difficult than on a CJ because the CJ's gear selector can be accessed
from behind the front seat. In the Yak 52 you need a 10 year old skinny
kid to get under the instrument panel.
If you have never disassembled a rear gear selector after it has started
leaking, you would not believe the rust and junk that accumulates inside
this piece of equipment when it is never used. And many folks never even
test them during the condition inspection. So they just sit there and
corrode over time.
My contention is, if it is not used and can and will cause pneumatic
system problems, why not remove it from the system and eliminate the
potential problem once and for all.
Dennis
A. Dennis Savarese
334-285-6263
334-546-8182 (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1
On 6/10/2013 4:41 PM, doug sapp wrote:
[quote] Mark,
It has been my experience that 75% or more of the failures of QSF2A
valves (3 port valves to you 52 types), and 12-5522-00 (5 port valve)
are caused not by moisture/rust but by grit and or pieces of rusted
springs. Years of rusty springs and poor maintenance has resulted in
the majority of the air systems out there being contaminated to some
degree. To combat the base problem we switched to all stainless steel
springs in most all of our valves quite some time ago. The secondary
problem of contaminated pneumatic problems is harder to solve as
flushing the system out is very difficult. We are experimenting with
the installation of a second stainless steel desiccant filter
installed just prior to the rear gear valve, if successful this should
vastly extend the life of these expensive valves.
Best,
Doug
On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 12:10 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD
<mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil <mailto:mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>> wrote:
WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil <mailto:mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>>
Thanks for the expert advice Doug. I had never even considered that.
By the way, there is an air filter of sorts in the YAK-50. It is
located on the "T" air divider area where all the check valves are
located (four of them). It appears to be a circular device with
fittings at both ends and is possibly filled with something like steel
wool. In any case, whatever was in mine came all to pieces and junked
up the check valves.
Again: Good advice on a better filter. Hmmm.
Mark
--
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johnrobertnolan(at)gmail.
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 4:57 am Post subject: Air system 'stuff' |
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When removing any components from the aft cockpit I would consider the possibility of pilot incapacitation in the forward cockpit with a person in the back.
Regards,
John Nolan
On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 7:55 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)> wrote:
[quote]--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)>
Since neither the CJ nor the Yak 52, which have 100% identical gear and flap selectors for both front and rear cockpits, the rear cockpit gear and flap selectors are no longer used as was originally intended; as primary trainers. Therefore gear and flap selectors in the rear cockpit serve no functional benefit other than to pass the air pressure through them to the front cockpit. Why not fabricate a 3 valve and 5 valve bypass 'block' which could replace both of these "rarely ever used" components and eliminate potential failures in the pneumatic system?
This is not difficult to do. In fact, I am pretty sure Jim Goolsby modified his rear gear selector and created a bypass. Thus he eliminated the potential failure of the unit. I personally fabricated a bypass configuration for one Yak 52 and completely removed the rear gear selector. Replacing a rear gear selector in a Yak 52 is far more difficult than on a CJ because the CJ's gear selector can be accessed from behind the front seat. In the Yak 52 you need a 10 year old skinny kid to get under the instrument panel.
If you have never disassembled a rear gear selector after it has started leaking, you would not believe the rust and junk that accumulates inside this piece of equipment when it is never used. And many folks never even test them during the condition inspection. So they just sit there and corrode over time.
My contention is, if it is not used and can and will cause pneumatic system problems, why not remove it from the system and eliminate the potential problem once and for all.
Dennis
A. Dennis Savarese
[url=tel:334-285-6263]334-285-6263[/url]
[url=tel:334-546-8182]334-546-8182[/url] (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1
On 6/10/2013 4:41 PM, doug sapp wrote:
[quote] Mark,
It has been my experience that 75% or more of the failures of QSF2A valves (3 port valves to you 52 types), and 12-5522-00 (5 port valve) are caused not by moisture/rust but by grit and or pieces of rusted springs. Years of rusty springs and poor maintenance has resulted in the majority of the air systems out there being contaminated to some degree. To combat the base problem we switched to all stainless steel springs in most all of our valves quite some time ago. The secondary problem of contaminated pneumatic problems is harder to solve as flushing the system out is very difficult. We are experimenting with the installation of a second stainless steel desiccant filter installed just prior to the rear gear valve, if successful this should vastly extend the life of these expensive valves.
Best,
Doug
On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 12:10 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil) <mailto:mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)>> wrote:
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR,
WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil) <mailto:mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)>>
Thanks for the expert advice Doug. I had never even considered that.
By the way, there is an air filter of sorts in the YAK-50. It is
located on the "T" air divider area where all the check valves are
located (four of them). It appears to be a circular device with
fittings at both ends and is possibly filled with something like steel
wool. In any case, whatever was in mine came all to pieces and junked
up the check valves.
Again: Good advice on a better filter. Hmmm.
Mark
--
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
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