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582 Oil Reservoir
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msm_9949(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 6:19 am Post subject: 582 Oil Reservoir

I use the flapperons (about 10 degrees or less) for nose down trim at cruise speeds (60-70 mph). As power is reduced, flapperons return to neutral. With no flaps and cruise power, airplane will climb. My CG is dead-center of the range.

 

You must get egt gauges Bob. With a 2 stroke, it is probably the most important engine instrument on your panel. It will tell you immediately if mixture is too lean (High egt) and prevent melting holes in your pistons. Checking the color of your plugs frequently will also tell you alot about fuel burn (lean-rich). You're shooting for a light brown color. No black soot (too rich) or gray ash (too lean). Mike Stratmann wrote a good article ("Part 9") on reading plugs. Check it out at:  http://www.800-airwolf.com/articles.htm

 

Marco Menezes N99KX

Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1



--- On Mon, 9/29/08, Bob Brennan <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name> wrote:



From: Bob Brennan <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name>

Subject: RE: 582 Oil Reservoir

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Monday, September 29, 2008, 6:49 PM



The cylinder head is gray, so it's a model 90. I believe the "blue head" didn't come out until 1991-92 and mine was flying by then.

 

Hard to believe that using flaperons for trim would increase drag that much, although I know as soon as I pull on the flap lever the nose tips down a *lot* (the difference between seeing the runway and flying blind) and I have to add power. I can also reset the trim tab for neutral stick - only with full flap does it not trim out but at that setting it's like having air brakes.

 

How much flap do you need to add for trim? How does it fly with no "flaps" - nose up or nose down? Maybe it's basically tail-heavy and you need to add flap (ie drag) to fly level? As you add speed the nose tends to pitch up, so you add flap(drag) to counteract? Sorry so many questions but I have never used the flaps for trim so don't know. The PFA (oversight for UK KF builds) issues a build document that basically says using flaps for trim is bad, and describes the elevator trim installation instead.

 

I don't have EGT gauges but should probably look into that, I feel left out

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:33 am Post subject: 582 Oil Reservoir

I have dug out some build documentation - two MANDATORY  modifications issued by the PFA. The first describes adding the horizontal trim  tab for those who have already built the stabilisers and those that hadn't, mine  has completely reworked tubing on the starboard side to allow for an  inbuilt tab.

  

 The second states: "Original equipment on Kitfox does not  provide for a positive location 'gate' on the flap control lever. It was  original intended that the plane be trimmed by use of the flaps. However flight  tests indicate a more suitable situation would be to use a trim tab (adjustable)  on the elevator and use the flaps as flaps only. This is the recommended  practice. In this situation 15 degrees of flap is the maximum required in any  situation. Hence a suitable gate is required that can be clamped to the diagonal  tube framing floor to seat that will restrain total flap lever travel to 0 - 15  degrees in say 5 degree steps"

  

 Mine has 3 notches: 0, 15, and something between. The first  "notch" adds about 90% lift and 10% drag (% of the total effect), used for short  take-offs and nose-down on approach. The 2nd notch (15) adds 10% lift and 90%  drag.  I'd have to guess that your adding "10 degrees or less" is adding a  *lot* of drag at cruise speeds. I never use flap until I am down to about 55 mph  approach speed, or remove it until well off the ground on take off; in fact it  is placarded never to use flaps at all above maneuvering speed, 70  mph.

  

  

 EGT gauges - I looked on AircraftSpruce.com and there is a  wide range of types and prices. Can you (or anyone on the list) give  recommendations for my gray head 582 please. Also - what sensors and where do  they mount?

  

 Spark plugs - I will pull them all next time I am "under  the bonnet", which should be later today, and get back to you on the  condition.

  

   Bob Brennan -  N717GB

 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA  Kitfox

 Rotax 582 with 3 blade  prop

 Wrightsville  Pa  



   From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marco  Menezes

Sent: 30 September 2008 10:20 am

To:  kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: 582 Oil  Reservoir

 

                   I use the flapperons (about 10 degrees or less) for nose down trim at        cruise speeds (60-70 mph). As power is reduced, flapperons return to        neutral. With no flaps and cruise power, airplane will climb. My CG is        dead-center of the range.

        

       You must get egt gauges Bob. With a 2 stroke, it is probably        the most important engine instrument on your panel. It will tell you        immediately if mixture is too lean (High egt) and prevent melting holes in        your pistons. Checking the color of your plugs frequently will also tell        you alot about fuel burn (lean-rich). You're shooting for a light brown        color. No black soot (too rich) or gray ash (too lean). Mike Stratmann        wrote a good article ("Part 9") on reading plugs. Check it out at:         http://www.800-airwolf.com/articles.htm

        

       Marco Menezes N99KX

       Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1









[quote] [b]

msm_9949(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 2:36 pm Post subject: 582 Oil Reservoir

I have no "notches" on my flapperon lever. It's a continuous range from 0 to a stop at about 15 degrees which, I think, is where the "flaps" begin to interfere with operation of the ailerons. 

  

 I'd like to see your tab set-up. Is it like the one on the Euro-Fox?

  

 Marco Menezes N99KX

 Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1



--- On Tue, 9/30/08, Bob Brennan <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  From: Bob Brennan <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name>

Subject: RE: 582 Oil Reservoir

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Tuesday, September 30, 2008, 12:31 PM



  I have dug out some build documentation - two MANDATORY modifications issued by the PFA. The first describes adding the horizontal trim tab for those who have already built the stabilisers and those that hadn't, mine has completely reworked tubing on the starboard side to allow for an inbuilt tab.

  

 The second states: "Original equipment on Kitfox does not provide for a positive location 'gate' on the flap control lever. It was original intended that the plane be trimmed by use of the flaps. However flight tests indicate a more suitable situation would be to use a trim tab (adjustable) on the elevator and use the flaps as flaps only. This is the recommended practice. In this situation 15 degrees of flap is the maximum required in any situation. Hence a suitable gate is required that can be clamped to the diagonal tube framing floor to seat that will restrain total flap lever travel to 0 - 15 degrees in say 5 degree steps"

  

 Mine has 3 notches: 0, 15, and something between. The first "notch" adds about 90% lift and 10% drag (% of the total effect), used for short take-offs and nose-down on approach. The 2nd notch (15) adds 10% lift and 90% drag.  I'd have to guess that your adding "10 degrees or less" is adding a *lot* of drag at cruise speeds. I never use flap until I am down to about 55 mph approach speed, or remove it until well off the ground on take off; in fact it is placarded never to use flaps at all above maneuvering speed, 70 mph.

  

  

 EGT gauges - I looked on AircraftSpruce.com and there is a wide range of types and prices. Can you (or anyone on the list) give recommendations for my gray head 582 please. Also - what sensors and where do they mount?

  

 Spark plugs - I will pull them all next time I am "under the bonnet", which should be later today, and get back to you on the condition.

  

   Bob Brennan - N717GB

 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

 Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

 Wrightsville Pa  



   From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marco Menezes

Sent: 30 September 2008 10:20 am

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: 582 Oil Reservoir

 

     I use the flapperons (about 10 degrees or less) for nose down trim at cruise speeds (60-70 mph). As power is reduced, flapperons return to neutral. With no flaps and cruise power, airplane will climb. My CG is dead-center of the range.

  

 You must get egt gauges Bob. With a 2 stroke, it is probably the most important engine instrument on your panel. It will tell you immediately if mixture is too lean (High egt) and prevent melting holes in your pistons. Checking the color of your plugs frequently will also tell you alot about fuel burn (lean-rich). You're shooting for a light brown color. No black soot (too rich) or gray ash (too lean). Mike Stratmann wrote a good article ("Part 9") on reading plugs. Check it out at:  http://www.800-airwolf.com/articles.htm

  

 Marco Menezes N99KX

 Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1









 	  Quote: 	
		   

	


	


         [quote][b]

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 3:10 pm Post subject: 582 Oil Reservoir

Lucky for you I already have some pix I had sent to  another poster off-list 'cause it's pissin it down out there at the moment   

  

 I haven't seen the one on the Euro-Fox but I do know  the UK Fox has a lot of mods to the original kit. I seem to remember the  normal (US) flaperons are meant to be limited to around 23 degrees but I might  be wrong.

  

 The picture of the "console" shows the continuous horiz  tab setting nearest and the flap handle (with the release button on top) is on  the far side, set for zero flaps in the picture. I never use full flaps until I  am lined up on final, at that setting it is easy to run out of roll correction  if a turn is too steep on base to final. Had it happen a few times early  on!

  

 Any comments on the EGT gauge and sensor you have  talked me into?

  

   Bob Brennan -  N717GB

 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA  Kitfox

 Rotax 582 with 3 blade  prop

 Wrightsville  Pa  

  

   

 From:  owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marco  Menezes

Sent: 30 September 2008 6:36 pm

To:  kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: 582 Oil  Reservoir

 

                   I have no "notches" on my flapperon lever. It's a continuous range        from 0 to a stop at about 15 degrees which, I think, is where the "flaps"        begin to interfere with operation of the ailerons. 

        

       I'd like to see your tab set-up. Is it like the one on the        Euro-Fox?

        

       Marco Menezes N99KX

       Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1



--- On Tue, 9/30/08, Bob Brennan        <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name> wrote:



        	  Quote: 	
		  From:          Bob Brennan <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name>

Subject: RE:          582 Oil Reservoir

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Date:          Tuesday, September 30, 2008, 12:31 PM



                  I have dug out some build documentation - two          MANDATORY modifications issued by the PFA. The first describes adding          the horizontal trim tab for those who have already built the stabilisers          and those that hadn't, mine has completely reworked tubing on the          starboard side to allow for an inbuilt tab.

          

         The second states: "Original equipment on Kitfox          does not provide for a positive location 'gate' on the flap control          lever. It was original intended that the plane be trimmed by use of the          flaps. However flight tests indicate a more suitable situation would be          to use a trim tab (adjustable) on the elevator and use the flaps as          flaps only. This is the recommended practice. In this situation 15          degrees of flap is the maximum required in any situation. Hence a          suitable gate is required that can be clamped to the diagonal tube          framing floor to seat that will restrain total flap lever travel to 0 -          15 degrees in say 5 degree steps"

          

         Mine has 3 notches: 0, 15, and something between.          The first "notch" adds about 90% lift and 10% drag (% of the total          effect), used for short take-offs and nose-down on approach. The 2nd          notch (15) adds 10% lift and 90% drag.  I'd have to guess that your          adding "10 degrees or less" is adding a *lot* of drag at cruise speeds.          I never use flap until I am down to about 55 mph approach speed, or          remove it until well off the ground on take off; in fact it is placarded          never to use flaps at all above maneuvering speed, 70          mph.

          

          

         EGT gauges - I looked on AircraftSpruce.com and          there is a wide range of types and prices. Can you (or anyone on the          list) give recommendations for my gray head 582 please. Also - what          sensors and where do they mount?

          

         Spark plugs - I will pull them all next time I am          "under the bonnet", which should be later today, and get back to you on          the condition.

          

                           Bob          Brennan - N717GB

         1991 UK Model 2 ELSA          Kitfox

         Rotax 582 with 3 blade          prop

         Wrightsville          Pa  



                           From:          owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com          [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of          Marco Menezes

Sent: 30 September 2008 10:20          am

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE:          582 Oil Reservoir

         

                                                           I use the flapperons (about 10 degrees or less) for nose down                trim at cruise speeds (60-70 mph). As power is reduced, flapperons                return to neutral. With no flaps and cruise power, airplane will                climb. My CG is dead-center of the range.

                

               You must get egt gauges Bob. With a 2 stroke, it is                probably the most important engine instrument on your panel. It                will tell you immediately if mixture is too lean (High egt) and                prevent melting holes in your pistons. Checking the color of your                plugs frequently will also tell you alot about fuel burn                (lean-rich). You're shooting for a light brown color. No black                soot (too rich) or gray ash (too lean). Mike Stratmann wrote a                good article ("Part 9") on reading plugs. Check it out at:                 http://www.800-airwolf.com/articles.htm

                

               Marco Menezes N99KX

               Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1









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Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 12:32 pm Post subject: 582 Oil Reservoir

At 09:31 AM 9/30/2008, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  EGT gauges - I looked on AircraftSpruce.com and there is a wide range of types and prices. Can you (or anyone on the list) give recommendations for my gray head 582 please. Also - what sensors and where do they mount? 	


         I use the Grand Rapids Technologies EIS system for engine data. I love it as it has an alarm system that whacks me in the head (visually) when my EGT's go over red-line; (or anything else for that matter.)

         The easiest EGT probe to install would be the P-110 hose clamp mount. Mine are P-111 mounted via a 1/8" NPT to 1/8" compression fitting screwed into the exhaust manifold. Check your exhaust manifold. It should have two bosses welded on the top or bottom about 2" from the engine flange. These are for the EGT probes.



 

 Guy Buchanan

 San Diego, CA

 K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.    [quote][b]

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

msm_9949(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 12:19 pm Post subject: 582 Oil Reservoir

I never use the flaps at all, except for trim. 

  

 Nothing much more to say about the egt gauges except I don't know how you can run without them. Probe placement is important and there's been some talk about that on this list. My exhaust manifold came with holes already placed so it was a simple matter of assembly. After installation, it's a balancing act between prop pitch and carb settings to get the rpm's and egts where you want them. Conventional wisdom says egt's should not go above 1050-1150 degrees. Mid-range rpm's were most problematic for me. After that, inspect your plugs to assure the burn is proper and gauges aren't lying.

  

 Marco Menezes N99KX

 Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1

  

 



--- On Tue, 9/30/08, Bob Brennan <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  From: Bob Brennan <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name>

Subject: RE: 582 Oil Reservoir

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Tuesday, September 30, 2008, 7:09 PM



  Lucky for you I already have some pix I had sent to another poster off-list 'cause it's pissin it down out there at the moment  

  

 I haven't seen the one on the Euro-Fox but I do know the UK Fox has a lot of mods to the original kit. I seem to remember the normal (US) flaperons are meant to be limited to around 23 degrees but I might be wrong.

  

 The picture of the "console" shows the continuous horiz tab setting nearest and the flap handle (with the release button on top) is on the far side, set for zero flaps in the picture. I never use full flaps until I am lined up on final, at that setting it is easy to run out of roll correction if a turn is too steep on base to final. Had it happen a few times early on!

  

 Any comments on the EGT gauge and sensor you have talked me into?

  

   Bob Brennan - N717GB

 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

 Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

 Wrightsville Pa  

  

   

 From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marco Menezes

Sent: 30 September 2008 6:36 pm

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: 582 Oil Reservoir

 

     I have no "notches" on my flapperon lever. It's a continuous range from 0 to a stop at about 15 degrees which, I think, is where the "flaps" begin to interfere with operation of the ailerons. 

  

 I'd like to see your tab set-up. Is it like the one on the Euro-Fox?

  

 Marco Menezes N99KX

 Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1



--- On Tue, 9/30/08, Bob Brennan <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  From: Bob Brennan <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name>

Subject: RE: 582 Oil Reservoir

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Tuesday, September 30, 2008, 12:31 PM



  I have dug out some build documentation - two MANDATORY modifications issued by the PFA. The first describes adding the horizontal trim tab for those who have already built the stabilisers and those that hadn't, mine has completely reworked tubing on the starboard side to allow for an inbuilt tab.

  

 The second states: "Original equipment on Kitfox does not provide for a positive location 'gate' on the flap control lever. It was original intended that the plane be trimmed by use of the flaps. However flight tests indicate a more suitable situation would be to use a trim tab (adjustable) on the elevator and use the flaps as flaps only. This is the recommended practice. In this situation 15 degrees of flap is the maximum required in any situation. Hence a suitable gate is required that can be clamped to the diagonal tube framing floor to seat that will restrain total flap lever travel to 0 - 15 degrees in say 5 degree steps"

  

 Mine has 3 notches: 0, 15, and something between. The first "notch" adds about 90% lift and 10% drag (% of the total effect), used for short take-offs and nose-down on approach. The 2nd notch (15) adds 10% lift and 90% drag.  I'd have to guess that your adding "10 degrees or less" is adding a *lot* of drag at cruise speeds. I never use flap until I am down to about 55 mph approach speed, or remove it until well off the ground on take off; in fact it is placarded never to use flaps at all above maneuvering speed, 70 mph.

  

  

 EGT gauges - I looked on AircraftSpruce.com and there is a wide range of types and prices. Can you (or anyone on the list) give recommendations for my gray head 582 please. Also - what sensors and where do they mount?

  

 Spark plugs - I will pull them all next time I am "under the bonnet", which should be later today, and get back to you on the condition.

  

   Bob Brennan - N717GB

 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

 Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

 Wrightsville Pa  



   From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marco Menezes

Sent: 30 September 2008 10:20 am

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: 582 Oil Reservoir

 

     I use the flapperons (about 10 degrees or less) for nose down trim at cruise speeds (60-70 mph). As power is reduced, flapperons return to neutral. With no flaps and cruise power, airplane will climb. My CG is dead-center of the range.

  

 You must get egt gauges Bob. With a 2 stroke, it is probably the most important engine instrument on your panel. It will tell you immediately if mixture is too lean (High egt) and prevent melting holes in your pistons. Checking the color of your plugs frequently will also tell you alot about fuel burn (lean-rich). You're shooting for a light brown color. No black soot (too rich) or gray ash (too lean). Mike Stratmann wrote a good article ("Part 9") on reading plugs. Check it out at:  http://www.800-airwolf.com/articles.htm

  

 Marco Menezes N99KX

 Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1









 	  Quote: 	
		  

	


	
 	  Quote: 	
		   	


	


           [quote][b]

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 6:28 am Post subject: 582 Oil Reservoir

Guy, or anybody else that can answer,

  

 I am looking at the Grand Rapids EIS to replace my  impossible-to-diagnose temp gauge and missing EGT, on your recommendation and  the fact that for my money I get more STUFF.

  

 I am looking at http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/eisjabiru.php

             2 Stroke, 2 Cylinder     2000     10-28000     $476.95            EIS Fuel Flow Option     ----     10-28004     $365.95but  how can I be sure it will work on my 582 grey head? I checked the exhaust  manifold - no bosses boss, as far as I can see. 

  

 The  page on ACS says "Specify  engine and aircraft makes and models, standard systems furnished with gasket  type CHT senders and hose clamp type EGT senders." so I am optimistic  (I'm a fuel-tank-half-full kinda guy) that the probes will fit with minor  machining, since I'm more of a woodworker than metalworker. 

  

 Any  advice/experience anyone can offer?

  

  Bob Brennan -  N717GB

 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA  Kitfox

 Rotax 582 with 3 blade  prop

 Wrightsville  Pa  

   From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Guy  Buchanan

Sent: 01 October 2008 3:30 pm

To:  kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: 582 Oil  Reservoir

 

At 09:31 AM 9/30/2008, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  EGT    gauges - I looked on AircraftSpruce.com and there is a wide range of types and    prices. Can you (or anyone on the list) give recommendations for my gray head    582 please. Also - what sensors and where do they  mount? 	


        I  use the Grand Rapids Technologies EIS system for engine data. I love it as it  has an alarm system that whacks me in the head (visually) when my EGT's go over  red-line; (or anything else for that  matter.)

        The  easiest EGT probe to install would be the P-110 hose clamp mount. Mine are P-111  mounted via a 1/8" NPT to 1/8" compression fitting screwed into the exhaust  manifold. Check your exhaust manifold. It should have two bosses welded on the  top or bottom about 2" from the engine flange. These are for the EGT  probes.



 

Guy Buchanan

San Diego, CA

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100%  done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. [quote]



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c

[b]

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 7:01 am Post subject: 582 Oil Reservoir

At 07:26 AM 10/5/2008, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  I am looking at the Grand Rapids EIS to replace my impossible-to-diagnose temp gauge and missing EGT, on your recommendation and the fact that for my money I get more STUFF. 	


 It's always nice to get more STUFF. Looks like you have the right attitude. 



  	  Quote: 	
		  I am looking at  http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/eisjabiru.php

 2 Stroke, 2 Cylinder 2000 10-28000 $476.95

 EIS Fuel Flow Option ---- 10-28004 $365.95

 but how can I be sure it will work on my 582 grey head? I checked the exhaust manifold - no bosses boss, as far as I can see. 	


 That's similar to the one I have. (It appears to have some new functions.) However, I'd check with GRT ( http://www.grtavionics.com) to make sure you get exactly what you want. They won't care if you buy from Spruce. I also wouldn't buy the fuel flow, unless you really want more STUFF. These things burn fuel so slowly that management is pretty easy.



  	  Quote: 	
		   

 The page on ACS says "Specify engine and aircraft makes and models, standard systems furnished with gasket type CHT senders and hose clamp type EGT senders." so I am optimistic (I'm a fuel-tank-half-full kinda guy) that the probes will fit with minor machining, since I'm more of a woodworker than metalworker. 

  

 Any advice/experience anyone can offer? 	


 Hopefully someone will chime in who's used the strap on EGT probes on a 582. I'm not sure it will work because of the shape of the exhaust manifold. However it should be easy to have a local shop weld on some bosses. I can give you my measurements if you want to go that way.



 Note also that you only get CHT and EGT sensors with the GRT. You'll have to at least add water temp, plus any other functions you want. (See [url=http://www.grtavionics.com/product.aspx?productno &featureno=8] http://www.grtavionics.com/product.aspx?productno &featureno=8[/url] ).



 

 Guy Buchanan

 San Diego, CA

 K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.    [quote][b]

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 7:04 am Post subject: 582 Oil Reservoir

At 07:26 AM 10/5/2008, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Any advice/experience anyone can offer? 	


 "Note also that you only get CHT and EGT sensors with the GRT. You'll have to at least add water temp, plus any other functions you want. (See [url=http://www.grtavionics.com/product.aspx?productno &featureno=8] http://www.grtavionics.com/product.aspx?productno &featureno=8[/url] )."



 I realized this was confusing. The GRT 2000 package only comes with CHT and EGT sensors, though the box is capable of a lot more. You have to add any other sensors to the cost.



 

 Guy Buchanan

 San Diego, CA

 K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.    [quote][b]

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 9:59 am Post subject: 582 Oil Reservoir

Hi Guy,

  

 Thanks for that info. I went to the Grand Rapids site first  and saw that they sell the EIS 2000 as a stand-alone unit 

             EIS-2002     2 Cylinder - Two Stroke monitor, EIS only, no probes     $373and a wide variety  of sensors, but obviously you need to know what to order. ACS sells a "kit" and  state "Specify engine and  aircraft makes and models" and "Systems include probes and pre-wired cables". I went  to the ACS website contact-us page and stated the unit I want plus the Kitfox  plus 582 info and asked specifically what sensors/senders come with the kit.  Let's see what they say.

  

 I am rethinking the fuel sender due to the price, I can  always add it on at a later date. The problem is that I have always been uneasy  about fuel management - when I got the plane the only fuel level indication  was the discolored slit-in-the-dash, a "reserve" level switch that had been  disconnected, and a wing tank that hadn't been used in years due to seam leaks.  I sloshed the wing tank, replaced the tube from it with clear so I could see  flow, put in a sight tube for the main tank, am replacing the still-leaky  fittings on the wing tank, and reconnected the reserve warning light. But on  days like today when I flew for 40 minutes and the sight tube is about the same  before and after - the prospect of being able to measure fuel flow is  attractive. More STUFF to put my mind at ease, although the sight tube should be  the most reliable, assuming gravity doesn't fail. Heck if gravity stopped  working I wouldn't need fuel anyway!

  

 Attaching the EGT sensors is a concern - the manifolds are  pretty tiny. I assume one drills a hole and uses the clamp to hold the sensor in  place inside the manifold? Any probe more than an inch long might be a  problem(?)

  

  Bob Brennan -  N717GB

 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA  Kitfox

 Rotax 582 with 3 blade  prop

 Wrightsville  Pa  

   From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Guy  Buchanan

Sent: 05 October 2008 11:00 am

To:  kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: 582 Oil  Reservoir

 

At 07:26 AM 10/5/2008, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  I am    looking at the Grand Rapids EIS to replace my impossible-to-diagnose temp    gauge and missing EGT, on your recommendation and the fact that for my money I    get more STUFF. 	


It's always nice to get more STUFF. Looks  like you have the right attitude. 



  	  Quote: 	
		  I am    looking at http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/eisjabiru.php

2    Stroke, 2 Cylinder 2000 10-28000 $476.95

EIS Fuel Flow Option ----    10-28004 $365.95

but how can I be sure it will work on my 582 grey    head? I checked the exhaust manifold - no bosses boss, as far as I can see.    	


That's similar to the one I have. (It appears to have  some new functions.) However, I'd check with GRT (  http://www.grtavionics.com) to make sure you get exactly what you want. They  won't care if you buy from Spruce. I also wouldn't buy the fuel flow, unless you  really want more STUFF. These things burn fuel so slowly that management is  pretty easy.



  	  Quote: 	
		  

The    page on ACS says "Specify engine    and aircraft makes and models, standard systems furnished with gasket type CHT    senders and hose clamp type EGT senders." so    I am optimistic (I'm a fuel-tank-half-full kinda guy) that the probes will fit    with minor machining, since I'm more of a woodworker than metalworker.    

 

Any advice/experience anyone    can offer? 	


Hopefully someone will chime in who's used the  strap on EGT probes on a 582. I'm not sure it will work because of the shape of  the exhaust manifold. However it should be easy to have a local shop weld on  some bosses. I can give you my measurements if you want to go that  way.



Note also that you only get CHT and EGT sensors with the GRT. You'll  have to at least add water temp, plus any other functions you want. (See http://www.grtavionics.com/product.aspx?productno=2&featureno=8  ).



 

Guy Buchanan

San Diego, CA

K-IV  1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. [quote]



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Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 2:31 pm Post subject: 582 Oil Reservoir

The GRT  2000 from what source Guy? The Grand Rapids  website charges $373 and states "EIS only, no probes". The ACS website charges  $476.95 and states "Systems  include probes and pre-wired cables" It goes on to state what kind  of CHT and EGT probes come as standard and that threaded senders are available  at additional cost, but nothing about other sensors required to make it work.  Although the price difference is the price of 2 CHT and 2 EGT probes on the GRT  site...

  

 "2-stroke models provide tach, dual EGT, dual CHT, fluid temperature,  auxiliary input, hourmeter, flight timer, voltmeter and outside air  temperature" - tach, fluid temperature,  and outside air temp are not much use without  sensors!

  

 I have an email in to ACS asking specifics, and will  call tomorrow if they don't respond right  away.

  

   Bob Brennan -  N717GB

 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA  Kitfox

 Rotax 582 with 3 blade  prop

 Wrightsville  Pa  

  From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Guy  Buchanan

Sent: 05 October 2008 11:05 am

To:  kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: 582 Oil  Reservoir

 

At 07:26 AM 10/5/2008, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Any    advice/experience anyone can offer? 	


"Note also that you  only get CHT and EGT sensors with the GRT. You'll have to at least add water  temp, plus any other functions you want. (See http://www.grtavionics.com/product.aspx?productno=2&featureno=8  )."



I realized this was confusing. The GRT 2000 package only comes  with CHT and EGT sensors, though the box is capable of a lot more. You  have to add any other sensors to the cost.



 

Guy Buchanan

San Diego, CA

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100%  done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. [quote]



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

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thesupe(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 5:47 pm Post subject: 582 Oil Reservoir

If you use the hoseclamp style EGT probes C all you have to do is drill two 3/16" holes in the Y pipe.  Not hard at all.  

 Just need the right distance which if I remember right is 100 MM from the piston.  Double check that dimention though.

 Jim Chuk Kitfox 4 building  Avid MK IV flying   Mn

   

 From: matronics(at)bob.brennan.name

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: 582 Oil Reservoir

Date: Sun C 5 Oct 2008 13:57:14 -0400

  Hi Guy C

  

 Thanks for that info. I went to the Grand Rapids site first and saw that they sell the EIS 2000 as a stand-alone unit 

     EIS-2002 2 Cylinder - Two Stroke monitor C EIS only C no probes $373and a wide variety of sensors C but obviously you need to know what to order. ACS sells a "kit" and state "Specify engine and aircraft makes and models" and "Systems include probes and pre-wired cables". I went to the ACS website contact-us page and stated the unit I want plus the Kitfox plus 582 info and asked specifically what sensors/senders come with the kit. Let's see what they say.

  

 I am rethinking the fuel sender due to the price C I can always add it on at a later date. The problem is that I have always been uneasy about fuel management - when I got the plane the only fuel level indication was the discolored slit-in-the-dash C a "reserve" level switch that had been disconnected C and a wing tank that hadn't been used in years due to seam leaks. I sloshed the wing tank C replaced the tube from it with clear so I could see flow C put in a sight tube for the main tank C am replacing the still-leaky fittings on the wing tank C and reconnected the reserve warning light. But on days like today when I flew for 40 minutes and the sight tube is about the same before and after - the prospect of being able to measure fuel flow is attractive. More STUFF to put my mind at ease C although the sight tube should be the most reliable C assuming gravity doesn't fail. Heck if gravity stopped working I wouldn't need fuel anyway!

  

 Attaching the EGT sensors is a concern - the manifolds are pretty tiny. I assume one drills a hole and uses the clamp to hold the sensor in place inside the manifold? Any probe more than an inch long might be a problem(?)

  

  Bob Brennan - N717GB

 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

 Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

 Wrightsville Pa  

   From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Guy Buchanan

Sent: 05 October 2008 11:00 am

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: 582 Oil Reservoir

 

At 07:26 AM 10/5/2008 C you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  I am looking at the Grand Rapids EIS to replace my impossible-to-diagnose temp gauge and missing EGT C on your recommendation and the fact that for my money I get more STUFF. 	


It's always nice to get more STUFF. Looks like you have the right attitude. 



  	  Quote: 	
		  I am looking at http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/eisjabiru.php

2 Stroke C 2 Cylinder 2000 10-28000 $476.95

EIS Fuel Flow Option ---- 10-28004 $365.95

but how can I be sure it will work on my 582 grey head? I checked the exhaust manifold - no bosses boss C as far as I can see. 	


That's similar to the one I have. (It appears to have some new functions.) However C I'd check with GRT ( http://www.grtavionics.com) to make sure you get exactly what you want. They won't care if you buy from Spruce. I also wouldn't buy the fuel flow C unless you really want more STUFF. These things burn fuel so slowly that management is pretty easy.



  	  Quote: 	
		  

The page on ACS says "Specify engine and aircraft makes and models C standard systems furnished with gasket type CHT senders and hose clamp type EGT senders." so I am optimistic (I'm a fuel-tank-half-full kinda guy) that the probes will fit with minor machining C since I'm more of a woodworker than metalworker. 

 

Any advice/experience anyone can offer? 	


Hopefully someone will chime in who's used the strap on EGT probes on a 582. I'm not sure it will work because of the shape of the exhaust manifold. However it should be easy to have a local shop weld on some bosses. I can give you my measurements if you want to go that way.



Note also that you only get CHT and EGT sensors with the GRT. You'll have to at least add water temp C plus any other functions you want. (See http://www.grtavionics.com/product.aspx?productno=2&featureno=8 ).



 Guy Buchanan

San Diego C CA

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done C thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.  	  Quote: 	
		  



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Stay up to date on your PC C the Web C and ymsnnkwxp1020093185mrt/direct/01/' target='_new'>See Now  [quote][b]

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 6:19 pm Post subject: 582 Oil Reservoir

At 06:46 PM 10/5/2008, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  If you use the hoseclamp style EGT probes, all you have to do is 

drill two 3/16" holes in the Y pipe.


	


         Yes, drilling the holes is easy. I can't picture the clamp, 

though. How'd you do that?

Guy Buchanan

San Diego, CA

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 6:19 pm Post subject: 582 Oil Reservoir

At 10:57 AM 10/5/2008, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		   Thanks for that info. I went to the Grand Rapids site first and saw that they sell the EIS 2000 as a stand-alone unit 

 EIS-2002 2 Cylinder - Two Stroke monitor, EIS only, no probes $373

 and a wide variety of sensors, but obviously you need to know what to order. 	


 They have another page "Packages" ([url=http://www.grtavionics.com/product.aspx?productno &featureno=12] http://www.grtavionics.com/product.aspx?productno &featureno=12[/url]) that lists the package ACS is probably selling.



  	  Quote: 	
		   Attaching the EGT sensors is a concern - the manifolds are pretty tiny. I assume one drills a hole and uses the clamp to hold the sensor in place inside the manifold? Any probe more than an inch long might be a problem(?) 	


         All of the probes are variable length, (depth,) so that shouldn't be a problem. The problem is that my probes come in from the top in the throat of the "Y" and I don't see how you'd hold them in with hose clamps, as you would on a tubular header. By the way, did you check both sides, (top and bottom,) of the header? Stupid question, I know, but just checking- some headers are mounted the other way.



 

 Guy Buchanan

 San Diego, CA

 K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.    [quote][b]

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

thesupe(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 8:04 pm Post subject: 582 Oil Reservoir

Sorry if someone beat me to the answer C but picture a Y  The holes are in the two upper arms of the Y.   The probe goes through a hole in the hoseclamp C into the hole in the Y and the clamp is tightened arould that arm of the Y.  Same thing on the other upper arm of the Y pipe.  Hope that makes sence.  If you saw it it would be obvious immediatly.  Jim Chuk  4 building MN



 	  Quote: 	
		   Date: Sun C 5 Oct 2008 19:15:23 -0700

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 From: bnn(at)nethere.com

 Subject: RE: 582 Oil Reservoir

 

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan <bnn(at)nethere.com>

 

 At 06:46 PM 10/5/2008 C you wrote:

 >If you use the hoseclamp style EGT probes C all you have to do is 

 >drill two 3/16" holes in the Y pipe.

 

 Yes C drilling the holes is easy. I can't picture the clamp C 

 though. How'd you do that?

 

 

 Guy Buchanan

 San Diego C CA

 K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done C thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. 

 

&gt==============
	


[quote] 

 

 

See how Windows Mobile brings your life together—at home20093182mrt/direct/01/' target='_new'>See Now   	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 4:47 am Post subject: 582 Oil Reservoir

I can picture the clamp (attached) 



Bob Brennan - N717GB

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

Wrightsville Pa  



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matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 4:58 am Post subject: 582 Oil Reservoir

The GRT package for $503

 EIS-2002  $503

 Package  for 2-stroke engine to monitor two cylinders. Includes EIS Model  2000, 2 EGT probes, 2 CHT probes, and pre-wired  cables.

  

 appears to be identical to the ACS package for  $477

             2 Stroke, 2 Cylinder     2000     10-28000     $476.95

 Systems include probes and pre-wired cables, or may be  purchased individually....standard systems furnished with gasket type CHT  senders and hose clamp type EGT senders

  

 GRT lists all additional sensors on their website  at very reasonable prices but does not have online  ordering.

  

 ACS probably has the additional sensors on other pages  but not cross-linked back to the  package.

  

 Several phone calls sound like the only solution, the  Internet can't do *everything*!

  

 Bob Brennan - N717GB  1991 UK Model 2 ELSA  Kitfox

 Rotax 582 with 3 blade  prop

 Wrightsville  Pa  



 



   From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Guy  Buchanan

Sent: 05 October 2008 10:02 pm

To:  kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: 582 Oil  Reservoir

 

At 10:57 AM 10/5/2008, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Thanks    for that info. I went to the Grand Rapids site first and saw that they sell    the EIS 2000 as a stand-alone unit 

EIS-2002 2 Cylinder - Two Stroke    monitor, EIS only, no probes $373

and a wide variety of sensors, but    obviously you need to know what to order. 	


They have  another page "Packages" (  http://www.grtavionics.com/product.aspx?productno=2&featureno=12) that  lists the package ACS is probably selling.



  	  Quote: 	
		  Attaching the EGT sensors is a concern - the manifolds are pretty tiny.    I assume one drills a hole and uses the clamp to hold the sensor in place    inside the manifold? Any probe more than an inch long might be a  problem(?) 	


        All  of the probes are variable length, (depth,) so that shouldn't be a problem. The  problem is that my probes come in from the top in the throat of the "Y" and I  don't see how you'd hold them in with hose clamps, as you would on a tubular  header. By the way, did you check both sides, (top and bottom,) of the header?  Stupid question, I know, but just checking- some headers are mounted the other  way.



 

Guy Buchanan

San Diego, CA

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100%  done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. [quote]

[b]

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 5:03 am Post subject: 582 Oil Reservoir

I can picture it Jim thanks, although I'm not sure that "sence"  makes sense 

 I've had my head under the cowl trying to picture it and from what  everyone has said it does make sense, although the smallest probe I can find has  a 1" tip and I imagine that would pretty much touch the bottom of the manifold.  Also I would think that some manifold sealer goop of some sort would be a good  idea around the hole?

 Bob Brennan -  N717GB  1991 UK Model 2 ELSA  Kitfox

 Rotax 582 with 3 blade  prop

 Wrightsville  Pa  

   From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim_and_Lucy  Chuk

Sent: 06 October 2008 12:03 am

To:  kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: 582 Oil  Reservoir

Sorry if someone beat me to the answer, but picture a Y  The  holes are in the two upper arms of the Y.   The probe goes through a  hole in the hoseclamp, into the hole in the Y and the clamp is tightened arould  that arm of the Y.  Same thing on the other upper arm of the Y pipe.   Hope that makes sence.  If you saw it it would be obvious immediatly.   Jim Chuk  4 building MN

 	  Quote: 	
		   Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 19:15:23  -0700

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 From:  bnn(at)nethere.com

 Subject: RE: 582 Oil Reservoir

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan  <bnn(at)nethere.com>

 At 06:46 PM 10/5/2008, you  wrote:

 >If you use the hoseclamp style EGT probes, all you have to do  is 

 >drill two 3/16" holes in the Y pipe.

 Yes,  drilling the holes is easy. I can't picture the clamp, 

 though. How'd  you do that?

 Guy Buchanan

 San Diego,  CA

 K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.  

==============

  See how Windows Mobile brings your life together—at home20093182mrt/direct/01/'  target='_new'>See Now [quote]

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href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c

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thesupe(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 5:20 am Post subject: 582 Oil Reservoir

I should have thaought about haveing pictures that show this last night C but better late than never they say.  This was a picture of my Avid  MK IV with 582 before I changed it to the Jabiru engine.   Also C look at the probes in a catalog C they come installed in the hose clamp from the factory.  Jim Chuk  Kitfox 4 building  Avid MK IV flying  Mn



[quote] From: matronics(at)bob.brennan.name

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: 582 Oil Reservoir

 Date: Mon C 6 Oct 2008 08:47:16 -0400

 

 I can picture the clamp (attached) 

 

 Bob Brennan - N717GB

 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

 Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

 Wrightsville Pa 

 

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matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 6:08 am Post subject: 582 Oil Reservoir

That is how I pictured it Jim, although maybe a bit closer to the  cylinders, not that it probably matters.

  

 It looks like there is some discoloration at the probe holes,  probably from exhaust escaping? That's why I was thinking a bit of manifold  goop-sealer-stuff might be a good idea(?)

  

 Also - is the picture upside down or the  engine?

  

 Bob Brennan - N717GB  1991 UK Model 2 ELSA  Kitfox

 Rotax 582 with 3 blade  prop

 Wrightsville  Pa  

   From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim_and_Lucy  Chuk

Sent: 06 October 2008 9:20 am

To:  kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: 582 Oil  Reservoir

 

I should have thaought about haveing pictures that show this last  night, but better late than never they say.  This was a picture of my  Avid  MK IV with 582 before I changed it to the Jabiru engine.    Also, look at the probes in a catalog, they come installed in the hose  clamp from the factory.  Jim Chuk  Kitfox 4 building  Avid MK IV  flying  Mn



[quote] From: matronics(at)bob.brennan.name

 To:  kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: 582 Oil  Reservoir

 Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 08:47:16 -0400

 

 I can  picture the clamp (attached) 

 

 Bob Brennan - N717GB

 1991  UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

 Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

 Wrightsville  Pa 

 

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