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sam(at)fr8dog.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 4:38 am Post subject: Fuel pressure problems

My vents are plans built, and are straight cut. That could make a difference, I know in the 70's we had an AD on PA32's to cut the vent lines at an angle.

 David McNeill wrote: [quote]      DIV { 	MARGIN: 0px }            By breather tubes , are you referring to the vent lines? If so do you have the tips of the vent lines cut diagonally and facing forward. This is intened to provide a positve "ram" pressure to the vent lines if they contain fuel.

      From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Scott Schmidt

   Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2008 10:11 PM

   To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)

   Subject: Re: Fuel pressure problems

   OK, here is my theory on this one because I have the same issue.  

 It only occurs for me if I am climbing out for an extended period of time with full fuel tanks. 

 What I believe happens is that the breather tubes get filled with fuel and as you start to burn fuel it cannot bring air into the tank because of the "column" of fuel above the breather which causes low fuel pressure warnings.  I have found that if I level off it is immediately gone or if I make sure there is 1-2" below the filler neck I don't get this problem.  

 By leveling off and turning on the fuel pump, I think it can clear the breather and everything starts to work fine.  

 This is just my theory but something you may want to look at. I'd be interested to see if it happens with tanks at 3/4 or at lower angles of attack.  

 You would think that the full tanks would have a good column of fuel to supply the pickup with plenty of pressure but possibly at high angle of attacks (which causes the fuel to have to flow "uphill") combined with fuel in the breather causing a low pressure in the tanks may just be enough to cause this issue.  

 I have also correlated it to climb outs that are greater than 4000 feet (could just be extended climbs again) but everytime I fill the tanks completely full and takeoff from a sea level airport and climb to 10k+ feet it seems to occur.  

 I've been wanted to sit down and work out the math, I know someone out there would love to do that.  

 Scott Schmidt

   ----- Original Message ----

 From: Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com> (Tim(at)myrv10.com)

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)

 Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2008 8:15:59 AM

 Subject: Re: Fuel pressure problems

 --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com (Tim(at)myrv10.com)>

 The closest thing I can relate to this is a very very intermittent

 thing....something I only see on a handful of flights, and usually

 just in warmer temps.

 If you climb at low airspeeds, like try to do a 90-100kt climb

 on a hot day, I start to see a drop in fuel pressure.  It starts

 to fluctuate a bit, and then will start to drop.  My audio warnings

 fire up under about 12psi, so I don't run it too low to see how

 it goes....I usually hit the boost, and drop the nose for better

 cooling.  Once you drop the nose and get more cooling airflow,

 it goes away.  Also, note that this happens in climb, when you

 have lots of fuel flow.  As soon as I level off, lean out, and

 the fuel flows drop, it doesn't do it anymore.  So, my guess is

 that with high flow requirements in climb, and high heat, they

 combine and produce low and fluctuating pressure.  Since dropping

 the nose has shown to eliminate the problem (like climbing at

 120kts if I see this happening) and since pulling back the mixture

 takes care of it once level, that is my best guess.  But, as I

 said, it isn't something I see very often...just on the hot

 days or where I've done extended climbs...maybe see it 10-15

 times a season...or something like that, but that's over 100-200

 hours a season.

 At one point I had tried to order a fuel pump cooling shroud

 but the place didn't get them in stock.  One of these days

 I still would like to try that, along with perhaps some

 heat shielding foam over the fuel lines forward of the

 firewall.  But, my thought is, if you get your cowl set up

 with great cooling, it's probably something you wouldn't

 see too often.

 I'm not 100% sure of any of this....but it is something to

 consider.

 Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

 do not archive

 Sam wrote:

 > That's what I thought to, but when I turn on the boost pump, it 

 > immediately returns to normal pressure.

 > 

 > Jesse Saint wrote:

 >> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Jesse Saint" <jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)>

 >>

 >> That sounds like a sensor issue, maybe either a bad crimp or a bad ground.

 >>  Don't ask me how I might know.

 >>

 >> do not archive.

 >>

 >> Jesse Saint

 >> Saint Aviation, Inc.

 >> jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)

 >> www.saintaviation.com

 >> 352-427-0285

 >>

 >> Sam wrote:

 >>  

 >>> The first fifty hours were trouble free, as far as fuel pressure goes,

 >>> but now for the past 40 hours or so, I'm getting fuel pressure

 >>> fluctuation's. Normally the F/P runs in the mid to low 20's, but now

 >>> constantly fluctuates from 8 to 27 psi. The engine runs ok, but it's

 >>> disconcerting. Has anybody experienced this on an IO540D4A5 before,

 >>> would the engine actually keep running if the F/P was really down to 8psi?

 >>> Sam Marlow

 >>> #40157

 >>>

 >>>    

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 > 

 >         - The RV10-List Email Forum Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to the many List utilities such as List Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, Photoshare, and much much -->             - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS Same great content also available via the Web -->           - List Contribution Web Site Thank you for your generous                             -Matt Dralle, List -->    	  Quote: 	

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rene(at)felker.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:20 am Post subject: Fuel pressure problems

Sam, just to make sure I am understanding.  But, first I have not seen this problem in my first 5 hours….but the plans do call for the vents to be cut and face forward. Do you have yours cut straight?  

     

Rene' Felker  

RV-10 N423CF Flying  

801-721-6080  

        

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam

 Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2008 6:36 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Fuel pressure problems  

  

   

My vents are plans built, and are straight cut. That could make a difference, I know in the 70's we had an AD on PA32's to cut the vent lines at an angle.

 

 David McNeill wrote:   

 By breather tubes , are you referring to the vent lines? If so do you have the tips of the vent lines cut diagonally and facing forward. This is intened to provide a positve "ram" pressure to the vent lines if they contain fuel.  

       

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Scott Schmidt

 Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2008 10:11 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)

 Subject: Re: Fuel pressure problems    

OK, here is my theory on this one because I have the same issue.  

 It only occurs for me if I am climbing out for an extended period of time with full fuel tanks. 

 

 What I believe happens is that the breather tubes get filled with fuel and as you start to burn fuel it cannot bring air into the tank because of the "column" of fuel above the breather which causes low fuel pressure warnings.  I have found that if I level off it is immediately gone or if I make sure there is 1-2" below the filler neck I don't get this problem.  

 By leveling off and turning on the fuel pump, I think it can clear the breather and everything starts to work fine.  

 This is just my theory but something you may want to look at. I'd be interested to see if it happens with tanks at 3/4 or at lower angles of attack.  

 You would think that the full tanks would have a good column of fuel to supply the pickup with plenty of pressure but possibly at high angle of attacks (which causes the fuel to have to flow "uphill") combined with fuel in the breather causing a low pressure in the tanks may just be enough to cause this issue.  

 

 I have also correlated it to climb outs that are greater than 4000 feet (could just be extended climbs again) but everytime I fill the tanks completely full and takeoff from a sea level airport and climb to 10k+ feet it seems to occur.  

 

 I've been wanted to sit down and work out the math, I know someone out there would love to do that.      

   

  

Scott Schmidt    

     

---

dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:46 am Post subject: Fuel pressure problems

Depending on angle and cut of the vent it seems that a low pressure area

could be created at the vent entrance 



--

dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:02 am Post subject: Fuel pressure problems

One other thing I have done is drill a small (50) hole in the vent line

inside the fairing. This does not affect the tam pressure much and provides

an alternate vent in case of icing. Since the caps are not vented, an icing

of the forward facing vent line could close the vent and result in fuel

starvation and/or deformed tank. 



--

sam(at)fr8dog.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:11 am Post subject: Fuel pressure problems

Yes, mine are straight, I'll check that this afternoon. Thanks for 

asking, that could be the answer.



Rene Felker wrote:

[quote]

 Sam, just to make sure I am understanding. But, first I have not seen 

 this problem in my first 5 hours….but the plans do call for the vents 

 to be cut and face forward. Do you have yours cut straight?



 Rene' Felker



 RV-10 N423CF Flying



 801-721-6080



 ------------------------------------------------------------------------



 *From:* owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com 

 [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Sam

 *Sent:* Wednesday, March 19, 2008 6:36 AM

 *To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 *Subject:* Re: Fuel pressure problems



 My vents are plans built, and are straight cut. That could make a 

 difference, I know in the 70's we had an AD on PA32's to cut the vent 

 lines at an angle.



 David McNeill wrote:



 By breather tubes , are you referring to the vent lines? If so do you 

 have the tips of the vent lines cut diagonally and facing forward. 

 This is intened to provide a positve "ram" pressure to the vent lines 

 if they contain fuel.



 ------------------------------------------------------------------------



 *From:* owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com 

 <mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com> 

 [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Scott Schmidt

 *Sent:* Tuesday, March 18, 2008 10:11 PM

 *To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list(at)matronics.com>

 *Subject:* Re: Fuel pressure problems



 OK, here is my theory on this one because I have the same issue.

 It only occurs for me if I am climbing out for an extended period of 

 time with full fuel tanks.



 What I believe happens is that the breather tubes get filled with fuel 

 and as you start to burn fuel it cannot bring air into the tank 

 because of the "column" of fuel above the breather which causes low 

 fuel pressure warnings. I have found that if I level off it is 

 immediately gone or if I make sure there is 1-2" below the filler neck 

 I don't get this problem.

 By leveling off and turning on the fuel pump, I think it can clear the 

 breather and everything starts to work fine.

 This is just my theory but something you may want to look at. I'd be 

 interested to see if it happens with tanks at 3/4 or at lower angles 

 of attack.

 You would think that the full tanks would have a good column of fuel 

 to supply the pickup with plenty of pressure but possibly at high 

 angle of attacks (which causes the fuel to have to flow "uphill") 

 combined with fuel in the breather causing a low pressure in the tanks 

 may just be enough to cause this issue.



 I have also correlated it to climb outs that are greater than 4000 

 feet (could just be extended climbs again) but everytime I fill the 

 tanks completely full and takeoff from a sea level airport and climb 

 to 10k+ feet it seems to occur.



 I've been wanted to sit down and work out the math, I know someone out 

 there would love to do that.



 Scott Schmidt



 ---

sam(at)fr8dog.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:13 am Post subject: Fuel pressure problems

Yes, the angle would be important. That's another thing I could check on the PA32.

 

 David McNeill wrote: [quote]   [quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: "David McNeill" <dlm46007(at)cox.net> (dlm46007(at)cox.net)  Depending on angle and cut of the vent it seems that a low pressure area could be created at the vent entrance   --

sam(at)fr8dog.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:25 am Post subject: Fuel pressure problems

I was in light icing on Sunday, coming back from the Cayman Islands, and that was the first thing that crossed my mine. I wasn't to worried about the wing, but that little cold soaked 1/4 vent tube, had my stomach in knots!

 

 David McNeill wrote: [quote]   [quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: "David McNeill" <dlm46007(at)cox.net> (dlm46007(at)cox.net)  One other thing I have done is drill a small (50) hole in the vent line inside the fairing. This does not affect the tam pressure much and provides an alternate vent in case of icing. Since the caps are not vented, an icing of the forward facing vent line could close the vent and result in fuel starvation and/or deformed tank.   --

rene(at)felker.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:34 am Post subject: Fuel pressure problems

I was debating on whether or not to put the hole in the vent tubes because

and I had everything buttoned up and ready for inspection.  I was going

through a final inspection I noted that I had the tubes on the wrong sides

and the opening was pointing backwards.  So since I had to pull them anyway

I put the hole in.  I am hoping I will never need the holes......no icing.



I wonder how much fuel I would have vented with the tubes in

backwards.....since it is a sealed system I don't think it would have been

much.



Rene' Felker

RV-10 N423CF Flying

801-721-6080



--

dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 7:07 am Post subject: Fuel pressure problems

I think I may have solved his problem  From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of  Sam

Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2008 7:22 AM

To:  rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Fuel pressure  problems

I was in light icing on Sunday, coming  back from the Cayman Islands, and that was the first thing that crossed my mine.  I wasn't to worried about the wing, but that little cold soaked 1/4 vent tube,  had my stomach in knots!

David McNeill wrote:  [quote][quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: "David McNeill" <dlm46007(at)cox.net> (dlm46007(at)cox.net)  One other thing I have done is drill a small (50) hole in the vent line inside the fairing. This does not affect the tam pressure much and provides an alternate vent in case of icing. Since the caps are not vented, an icing of the forward facing vent line could close the vent and result in fuel starvation and/or deformed tank.   --

dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 7:14 am Post subject: Fuel pressure problems

Probably not much after the internal tube end got above the fuel level;

however it would still be possible to vent after a turn that immersed the

internal tube end near the outboard edge. I have seen fuel venting in my

Glastar in a moderate turn after takeoff with all tanks to the filler neck. 



--

scottmschmidt(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 10:18 am Post subject: Fuel pressure problems

My vent lines have the standard cut per the plans.  

During climb you have low airspeed, a large column and the highest burn rate for the flight.   

  

Like you mentioned Tim, I have never had any issues even if it stayed around 10psi for a couple minutes.  I typically cycle the fuel pump for a second and once some fuel is burned off the issue goes away.  In 350 hours I have had it happen three times and all three times were when the lineman filled the tanks to the point that fuel was running out the cap when you checked the level, I was leaving from a sea level airport climbing to 8000 - 10000 feet for an extended period of time.  

  

Scott Schmidt



  ---

dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:10 pm Post subject: Fuel pressure problems

Just one other comment on this isssue; I checked the  solution of the cut of the vent and the extra small hole inside with the lady  (Phd in ME from Cal Tech) up the street. She said that a square cut (or a  diagonal cut facing aft) produces a low pressure area that would tend to  evacuate the tank and cause fuel pressure variations. Also indicated that the  small hole was a good idea for backup vent. 

   From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of  Sam

Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2008 7:22 AM

To:  rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Fuel pressure  problems

I was in light icing on Sunday, coming  back from the Cayman Islands, and that was the first thing that crossed my mine.  I wasn't to worried about the wing, but that little cold soaked 1/4 vent tube,  had my stomach in knots!

David McNeill wrote:  [quote][quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: "David McNeill" <dlm46007(at)cox.net> (dlm46007(at)cox.net)  One other thing I have done is drill a small (50) hole in the vent line inside the fairing. This does not affect the tam pressure much and provides an alternate vent in case of icing. Since the caps are not vented, an icing of the forward facing vent line could close the vent and result in fuel starvation and/or deformed tank.   --

sam(at)fr8dog.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 8:55 pm Post subject: Fuel pressure problems

Sounds like a good idea.



David McNeill wrote:

[quote] Just one other comment on this isssue; I checked the solution of the 

 cut of the vent and the extra small hole inside with the lady (Phd in 

 ME from Cal Tech) up the street. She said that a square cut (or a 

 diagonal cut facing aft) produces a low pressure area that would tend 

 to evacuate the tank and cause fuel pressure variations. Also 

 indicated that the small hole was a good idea for backup vent. 



 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

 *From:* owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com 

 [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Sam

 *Sent:* Wednesday, March 19, 2008 7:22 AM

 *To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 *Subject:* Re: Fuel pressure problems



 I was in light icing on Sunday, coming back from the Cayman Islands, 

 and that was the first thing that crossed my mine. I wasn't to worried 

 about the wing, but that little cold soaked 1/4 vent tube, had my 

 stomach in knots!



 David McNeill wrote:

> 

>

> One other thing I have done is drill a small (50) hole in the vent line

> inside the fairing. This does not affect the tam pressure much and provides

> an alternate vent in case of icing. Since the caps are not vented, an icing

> of the forward facing vent line could close the vent and result in fuel

> starvation and/or deformed tank. 

>

> --

John Ackerman

Joined: 19 Jun 2006
Posts: 130
Location: Prescott, AZ

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 5:56 pm Post subject: Fuel pressure problems

Could somebody please explain why a coordinated turn would make any  difference here?I once flew with a well regarded instructor in his personal Glasair, (different airplane, David ) and got really tired of holding aileron to compensate for unequal lateral weight distribution. His solution was a steep turn toward the light wing. I did so just to avoid an argument, but it predictably did no good. This looks like the same idea to me.

No flame war intended, I'm just wondering what I'm missing...

John Ackerman 40458



 	  Quote: 	
		  



...however it would still be possible to vent after a turn that immersed the

internal tube end near the outboard edge. I have seen fuel venting in my

Glastar in a moderate turn after takeoff with all tanks to the filler neck.

dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 8:00 pm Post subject: Fuel pressure problems

In the Glastar the main and aux vents tie together at the tip, in a bank the full tanks immerse the vents and fill the lines with fuel except the external air pressure in the vents prevented most of the flow overboard ( I caught a glimpse of the vapor in the sunlight). In the same way a turn in the 10 will immerse one of the internal vent openings in fuel and any negative pressure caused by improperly cut external vent tubes would tend to port that fuel overboard.   

         

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Ackerman

 Sent: Friday, March 21, 2008 6:54 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Fuel pressure problems  

  

   

Could somebody please explain why a coordinated turn would make any difference here?    

I once flew with a well regarded instructor in his personal Glasair, (different airplane, David ) and got really tired of holding aileron to compensate for unequal lateral weight distribution. His solution was a steep turn toward the light wing. I did so just to avoid an argument, but it predictably did no good. This looks like the same idea to me.  

    

No flame war intended, I'm just wondering what I'm missing...  

    

John Ackerman 40458    



 

     

   

    

...however it would still be possible to vent after a turn that immersed the  

    

internal tube end near the outboard edge. I have seen fuel venting in my  

    

Glastar in a moderate turn after takeoff with all tanks to the filler neck.   

  

  

  

    [quote]



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href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c

[b]

airplanedriver(at)gmail.c
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 8:04 pm Post subject: Fuel pressure problems

Agreed. Yawing the airplane will send the fuel to the same side of the

tank as the ball.  In a coordinated turn the fuel does not move

(much).



Chase Snodgrass

Presidio, TX

http://flybigbend.com

Simultaneous RV-10 twins early stage



On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 8:53 PM, John Ackerman <johnag5b(at)cableone.net> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Could somebody please explain why a coordinated turn would make any

 difference here?

 I once flew with a well regarded instructor in his personal Glasair,

 (different airplane, David ) and got really tired of holding aileron to

 compensate for unequal lateral weight distribution. His solution was a steep

 turn toward the light wing. I did so just to avoid an argument, but it

 predictably did no good. This looks like the same idea to me.

 No flame war intended, I'm just wondering what I'm missing...

 John Ackerman 40458



 ...however it would still be possible to vent after a turn that immersed the

 internal tube end near the outboard edge. I have seen fuel venting in my

 Glastar in a moderate turn after takeoff with all tanks to the filler neck.



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