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dwight(at)openweave.org
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 Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 7:02 am Post subject: NC Airports - 110 destinations |
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I don't post much here, but thought I'd chime in with one small snippet
of information. I got roped into helping a friend with a contract to try
and optimize the truck routes for the Hardees food delivery trucks. This
would have been back in the late 80s or early 90s. This was very much
the traveling salesman problem.
My friend was the math-geek and we applied a technique called "simulated
annealing" (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulated_annealing) to try
and address this particular real-world problem. The issue was that the
trucks didn't always have the same delivery destinations on their list
(i.e. the "nodes" were rarely the same) so the Hardees folks could not
wait for days/weeks/months/years for a solution.
Depending upon the specific details of the algorithm used this technique
gives a non-optimal but better-than-randomly-chosen solution. Which is to
say that it worked .... sorta. 
There are other aspects of this problem/project that caused me to ponder
killing my friend ... but that has nothing to do with simulated annealing,
and everything to do with project management, so I'll not go into that
here! Good luck!
-- Dwight
On Sun Jun 17 10:43:37 2007, Ron Schreck wrote :
| Quote: | Ed,
You're right! As the number reaches 12 or more the permutations get into the billions! There are some mathematicians who have made some algorithms that "approximate" the ideal solution with considerably less computations. I'm no rocket scientist and I'm not going to the moon, so maybe an approximate solution would do.
Smokey
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Larry Bowen
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 802
Location: NC, USA
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 7:05 am Post subject: NC Airports - 110 destinations |
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I just found a "Salesman" tab on the Garmin 396 menu. For NC, at 155 KTS, 15 min break every three hours, no wind, it says 19:17. That's using the Christofides algorithm, which has it's faults, but .......
--
Larry Bowen
Larry(at)BowenAero.com (Larry(at)BowenAero.com)
http://BowenAero.com
On 6/17/07, James Clark <jclarkmail(at)gmail.com (jclarkmail(at)gmail.com)> wrote:[quote] Ron,
I bet you didn't realize you were opening such a can of mathematical worms did ya?
It is a simple to describe but tough to solve problem.
I was doing some envelope scratching to see if I could come up with a way to do it easily in Excel. (My head is hurting now. )
Ask your friends if they have an Excel solution that can handle a 100x100 matrix. I **think** there may be a way to get "solver" in Excel to do such.
Then the only "work to do is enter the distances from/to all of the airports. That data is typically o the backs of the state aeronautical charts as I recall.
We just might have a "solution" be fore the day is over. If so, I plan to apply it to SC, which has <100 public airports.
James
p.s. Seems like there was an article about this where a guy in NJ did this. There are fewer airports there and I think it was done in a day. The guy may have been associated with Princeton. My mind is fuzzy right now.
On 6/17/07, Ron Schreck <[img]data:image/bmp;base64,Qk1GAgAAAAAAADYAAAAoAAAAEAAAAAsAAAABABgAAAAAABACAADEDgAAxA4AAAAAAAAAAAAAODjaODjap6f5p6f5p6f5p6f5p6f5p6f5p6f5p6f5p6f5p6f5p6f5p6f5ODjaODjaODjaODja4uL%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F4uL%2FODjaODjaODjaODjap6f54uL%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F4uL%2Fp6f5ODjaODjaODjaODja4uL%2Fp6f54uL%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2FgYHygYHy%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F4uL%2Fp6f54uL%2FODjaODjaODjaODja%2F%2F%2F%2F4uL%2Fp6f5trb%2FgYHyWlrpWlrpgYHytrb%2Fp6f54uL%2F%2F%2F%2F%2FODjaODjaODjaODja%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2Ftrb%2FgYHyWlrpODjaODjaWlrpgYHytrb%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2FODjaODjaODjaODja%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2FgYHyWlrpODjatrb%2Ftrb%2FODjaWlrpgYHy%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2FODjaODjaODjaODja%2F%2F%2F%2FgYHyWlrpODjatrb%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2Ftrb%2FODjaWlrpgYHy%2F%2F%2F%2FODjaODjaODjaODjagYHyWlrpODjatrb%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2Ftrb%2FODjaWlrpgYHyODjaODjaODjaODjaODjaODjatrb%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2Ftrb%2FODjaODjaODjaODjaODjaODjaODjagYHyp6f5p6f5p6f5p6f5p6f5p6f5p6f5p6f5gYHyODjaODjaODja[/img] ronschreck(at)windstream.net (ronschreck(at)windstream.net)> wrote:
[quote] --> RVSouthEast-List message posted by: Ron Schreck <[img]data:image/bmp;base64,Qk1GAgAAAAAAADYAAAAoAAAAEAAAAAsAAAABABgAAAAAABACAADEDgAAxA4AAAAAAAAAAAAAODjaODjap6f5p6f5p6f5p6f5p6f5p6f5p6f5p6f5p6f5p6f5p6f5p6f5ODjaODjaODjaODja4uL%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F4uL%2FODjaODjaODjaODjap6f54uL%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F4uL%2Fp6f5ODjaODjaODjaODja4uL%2Fp6f54uL%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2FgYHygYHy%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F4uL%2Fp6f54uL%2FODjaODjaODjaODja%2F%2F%2F%2F4uL%2Fp6f5trb%2FgYHyWlrpWlrpgYHytrb%2Fp6f54uL%2F%2F%2F%2F%2FODjaODjaODjaODja%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2Ftrb%2FgYHyWlrpODjaODjaWlrpgYHytrb%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2FODjaODjaODjaODja%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2FgYHyWlrpODjatrb%2Ftrb%2FODjaWlrpgYHy%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2FODjaODjaODjaODja%2F%2F%2F%2FgYHyWlrpODjatrb%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2Ftrb%2FODjaWlrpgYHy%2F%2F%2F%2FODjaODjaODjaODjagYHyWlrpODjatrb%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2Ftrb%2FODjaWlrpgYHyODjaODjaODjaODjaODjaODjatrb%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2Ftrb%2FODjaODjaODjaODjaODjaODjaODjagYHyp6f5p6f5p6f5p6f5p6f5p6f5p6f5p6f5gYHyODjaODjaODja[/img] ronschreck(at)windstream.net (ronschreck(at)windstream.net)>
Ed,
You're right! As the number reaches 12 or more the permutations get into the billions! There are some mathematicians who have made some algorithms that "approximate" the ideal solution with considerably less computations. I'm no rocket scientist and I'm not going to the moon, so maybe an approximate solution would do.
Smokey
[quote]
From: "Ed Anderson" <[img]data:image/bmp;base64,Qk1GAgAAAAAAADYAAAAoAAAAEAAAAAsAAAABABgAAAAAABACAADEDgAAxA4AAAAAAAAAAAAAODjaODjap6f5p6f5p6f5p6f5p6f5p6f5p6f5p6f5p6f5p6f5p6f5p6f5ODjaODjaODjaODja4uL%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F4uL%2FODjaODjaODjaODjap6f54uL%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F4uL%2Fp6f5ODjaODjaODjaODja4uL%2Fp6f54uL%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2FgYHygYHy%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F4uL%2Fp6f54uL%2FODjaODjaODjaODja%2F%2F%2F%2F4uL%2Fp6f5trb%2FgYHyWlrpWlrpgYHytrb%2Fp6f54uL%2F%2F%2F%2F%2FODjaODjaODjaODja%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2Ftrb%2FgYHyWlrpODjaODjaWlrpgYHytrb%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2FODjaODjaODjaODja%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2FgYHyWlrpODjatrb%2Ftrb%2FODjaWlrpgYHy%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2FODjaODjaODjaODja%2F%2F%2F%2FgYHyWlrpODjatrb%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2Ftrb%2FODjaWlrpgYHy%2F%2F%2F%2FODjaODjaODjaODjagYHyWlrpODjatrb%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2Ftrb%2FODjaWlrpgYHyODjaODjaODjaODjaODjaODjatrb%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2Ftrb%2FODjaODjaODjaODjaODjaODjaODjagYHyp6f5p6f5p6f5p6f5p6f5p6f5p6f5p6f5gYHyODjaODjaODja[/img] eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com (eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com)>
Date: 2007/06/17 Sun AM 10:39:53 EDT
To: <[img]data:image/bmp;base64,Qk1GAgAAAAAAADYAAAAoAAAAEAAAAAsAAAABABgAAAAAABACAADEDgAAxA4AAAAAAAAAAAAAODjaODjap6f5p6f5p6f5p6f5p6f5p6f5p6f5p6f5p6f5p6f5p6f5p6f5ODjaODjaODjaODja4uL%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F4uL%2FODjaODjaODjaODjap6f54uL%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F4uL%2Fp6f5ODjaODjaODjaODja4uL%2Fp6f54uL%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2FgYHygYHy%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F4uL%2Fp6f54uL%2FODjaODjaODjaODja%2F%2F%2F%2F4uL%2Fp6f5trb%2FgYHyWlrpWlrpgYHytrb%2Fp6f54uL%2F%2F%2F%2F%2FODjaODjaODjaODja%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2Ftrb%2FgYHyWlrpODjaODjaWlrpgYHytrb%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2FODjaODjaODjaODja%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2FgYHyWlrpODjatrb%2Ftrb%2FODjaWlrpgYHy%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2FODjaODjaODjaODja%2F%2F%2F%2FgYHyWlrpODjatrb%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2Ftrb%2FODjaWlrpgYHy%2F%2F%2F%2FODjaODjaODjaODjagYHyWlrpODjatrb%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2Ftrb%2FODjaWlrpgYHyODjaODjaODjaODjaODjaODjatrb%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2Ftrb%2FODjaODjaODjaODjaODjaODjaODjagYHyp6f5p6f5p6f5p6f5p6f5p6f5p6f5p6f5gYHyODjaODjaODja[/img] rvsoutheast-list(at)matronics.com (rvsoutheast-list(at)matronics.com)>
Subject: Re: Re: RVSouthEast-List: NC Airports - 110 destinations
As I recall, it doesn't take very many nodes in the "traveling Salesman" problem for the possible permutations to quickly become large enough to take an excessive amount of time to solve on the computers of the day (maybe even the home computers of today).
Ed
---
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_________________
Larry Bowen
RV-8 SOLD,
RV-7QB in progress... |
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vitez(at)carolina.rr.com
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 7:07 am Post subject: NC Airports - 110 destinations |
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Hmm.. this program doesn’t include Hop-a-Long?
- Anyways, EAA members Parker Johnstone and James Murphy flew a Beech Bonanza 36 to all 96 hard-surface public airports in the state of Oregon in one day, seven hours 16 minutes.
Don’t know how OR compares to NC, but squeezing 110 in 24 hrs will be a challenge. This assumes you’d actually wanna be awake and flying all 24 hrs?
From: owner-rvsoutheast-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rvsoutheast-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Bowen
Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2007 11:02 AM
To: rvsoutheast-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: NC Airports - 110 destinations
I think this is the program for VA:
http://www.doav.virginia.gov/vaap.htm
--
Larry Bowen
Larry(at)BowenAero.com (Larry(at)BowenAero.com)
http://BowenAero.com
[quote][b]
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ronschreck
Joined: 04 Aug 2006
Posts: 192
Location: Gold Hill Airpark, NC (NC25)
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 7:16 am Post subject: NC Airports - 110 destinations |
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James,
I have the NC Aeronautical Chart and I don't see any distances listed. I may put all of the airports on a flight planning program and start connecting dots. Very unscientific, but I'm no rocket scientist.
Smokey
[quote]
From: "James Clark" <jclarkmail(at)gmail.com>
Date: 2007/06/17 Sun AM 10:53:03 EDT
To: rvsoutheast-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: NC Airports - 110 destinations
Ron,
I bet you didn't realize you were opening such a can of mathematical worms
did ya?
It is a simple to describe but tough to solve problem.
I was doing some envelope scratching to see if I could come up with a way to
do it easily in Excel. (My head is hurting now. )
Ask your friends if they have an Excel solution that can handle a 100x100
matrix. I **think** there may be a way to get "solver" in Excel to do such.
Then the only "work to do is enter the distances from/to all of the
airports. That data is typically o the backs of the state aeronautical
charts as I recall.
We just might have a "solution" be fore the day is over. If so, I plan
to apply it to SC, which has <100 public airports.
James
p.s. Seems like there was an article about this where a guy in NJ did this.
There are fewer airports there and I think it was done in a day. The guy may
have been associated with Princeton. My mind is fuzzy right now.
On 6/17/07, Ron Schreck <ronschreck(at)windstream.net> wrote:
>
>
> ronschreck(at)windstream.net>
>
> Ed,
>
> You're right! As the number reaches 12 or more the permutations get into
> the billions! There are some mathematicians who have made some algorithms
> that "approximate" the ideal solution with considerably less
> computations. I'm no rocket scientist and I'm not going to the moon, so
> maybe an approximate solution would do.
>
> Smokey
>
>
> >
> > From: "Ed Anderson" <eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com>
> > Date: 2007/06/17 Sun AM 10:39:53 EDT
> > To: <rvsoutheast-list(at)matronics.com>
> > Subject: Re: Re: NC Airports - 110 destinations
> >
> > As I recall, it doesn't take very many nodes in the "traveling Salesman"
> problem for the possible permutations to quickly become large enough to
> take an excessive amount of time to solve on the computers of the day (maybe
> even the home computers of today).
> >
> > Ed
> >
> > ---
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ronschreck
Joined: 04 Aug 2006
Posts: 192
Location: Gold Hill Airpark, NC (NC25)
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 7:29 am Post subject: NC Airports - 110 destinations |
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OK, Larry, you're pulling my leg now. Aren't you? If not, phone me right now!
Ron
[quote]
From: "Larry Bowen" <Larry(at)bowenaero.com>
Date: 2007/06/17 Sun AM 11:05:29 EDT
To: rvsoutheast-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: NC Airports - 110 destinations
I just found a "Salesman" tab on the Garmin 396 menu. For NC, at 155 KTS,
15 min break every three hours, no wind, it says 19:17. That's using the
Christofides algorithm, which has it's faults, but .......
--
Larry Bowen
Larry(at)BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
On 6/17/07, James Clark <jclarkmail(at)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Ron,
>
> I bet you didn't realize you were opening such a can of mathematical worms
> did ya?
>
> It is a simple to describe but tough to solve problem.
>
> I was doing some envelope scratching to see if I could come up with a way
> to do it easily in Excel. (My head is hurting now. )
>
> Ask your friends if they have an Excel solution that can handle a 100x100
> matrix. I **think** there may be a way to get "solver" in Excel to do such.
>
> Then the only "work to do is enter the distances from/to all of the
> airports. That data is typically o the backs of the state aeronautical
> charts as I recall.
>
> We just might have a "solution" be fore the day is over. If so, I
> plan to apply it to SC, which has <100 public airports.
>
> James
> p.s. Seems like there was an article about this where a guy in NJ did
> this. There are fewer airports there and I think it was done in a day. The
> guy may have been associated with Princeton. My mind is fuzzy right now.
>
>
>
> On 6/17/07, Ron Schreck <ronschreck(at)windstream.net> wrote:
>
> >
> > ronschreck(at)windstream.net>
> >
> > Ed,
> >
> > You're right! As the number reaches 12 or more the permutations get
> > into the billions! There are some mathematicians who have made some
> > algorithms that "approximate" the ideal solution with considerably less
> > computations. I'm no rocket scientist and I'm not going to the moon, so
> > maybe an approximate solution would do.
> >
> > Smokey
> >
> >
> > >
> > > From: "Ed Anderson" <eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com>
> > > Date: 2007/06/17 Sun AM 10:39:53 EDT
> > > To: < rvsoutheast-list(at)matronics.com>
> > > Subject: Re: Re: NC Airports - 110 destinations
> > >
> > > As I recall, it doesn't take very many nodes in the "traveling
> > Salesman" problem for the possible permutations to quickly become large
> > enough to take an excessive amount of time to solve on the computers of the
> > day (maybe even the home computers of today).
> > >
> > > Ed
> > >
> > > ---
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ronschreck
Joined: 04 Aug 2006
Posts: 192
Location: Gold Hill Airpark, NC (NC25)
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 7:31 am Post subject: NC Airports - 110 destinations |
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Rad,
I figured I would somehow find the optimum route, input it in the Garmin 496 which is coupled to my Trio autopilot and then all I have to do is sit back and watch it all happen. 
Smokey
| Quote: |
From: "Radomir Zaric" <vitez(at)carolina.rr.com>
Date: 2007/06/17 Sun AM 11:08:25 EDT
To: <rvsoutheast-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: RE: Re: NC Airports - 110 destinations
Hmm.. this program doesn't include Hop-a-Long?
* Anyways, EAA members Parker Johnstone and James Murphy flew a Beech
Bonanza 36 to all 96 hard-surface public airports in the state of Oregon in
one day, seven hours 16 minutes.
Don't know how OR compares to NC, but squeezing 110 in 24 hrs will be a
challenge. This assumes you'd actually wanna be awake and flying all 24
hrs?
From: owner-rvsoutheast-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rvsoutheast-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry
Bowen
Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2007 11:02 AM
To: rvsoutheast-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: NC Airports - 110 destinations
I think this is the program for VA:
http://www.doav.virginia.gov/vaap.htm
--
Larry Bowen
Larry(at)BowenAero.com <mailto:Larry(at)BowenAero.com>
http://BowenAero.com
|
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jclarkmail(at)gmail.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 7:33 am Post subject: NC Airports - 110 destinations |
|
|
Ooops. You are correct.
That was on some of my FLORIDA charts!! And they did not have every airport, just the majors.
I suspect the Department of Transportation has the data though. A lot of points though ... I think nxn/2
James
On 6/17/07, Ron Schreck <ronschreck(at)windstream.net (ronschreck(at)windstream.net)> wrote:[quote] --> RVSouthEast-List message posted by: Ron Schreck <ronschreck(at)windstream.net (ronschreck(at)windstream.net)>
James,
I have the NC Aeronautical Chart and I don't see any distances listed. I may put all of the airports on a flight planning program and start connecting dots. Very unscientific, but I'm no rocket scientist.
Smokey
[quote]
From: "James Clark" <jclarkmail(at)gmail.com (jclarkmail(at)gmail.com)>
Date: 2007/06/17 Sun AM 10:53:03 EDT
To: rvsoutheast-list(at)matronics.com (rvsoutheast-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Re: NC Airports - 110 destinations
Ron,
I bet you didn't realize you were opening such a can of mathematical worms
did ya?
It is a simple to describe but tough to solve problem.
I was doing some envelope scratching to see if I could come up with a way to
do it easily in Excel. (My head is hurting now. )
Ask your friends if they have an Excel solution that can handle a 100x100
matrix. I **think** there may be a way to get "solver" in Excel to do such.
Then the only "work to do is enter the distances from/to all of the
airports. That data is typically o the backs of the state aeronautical
charts as I recall.
We just might have a "solution" be fore the day is over. If so, I plan
to apply it to SC, which has <100 public airports.
James
p.s. Seems like there was an article about this where a guy in NJ did this.
There are fewer airports there and I think it was done in a day. The guy may
have been associated with Princeton. My mind is fuzzy right now.
On 6/17/07, Ron Schreck <ronschreck(at)windstream.net (ronschreck(at)windstream.net)> wrote:
>
> --> RVSouthEast-List message posted by: Ron Schreck <
> ronschreck(at)windstream.net (ronschreck(at)windstream.net)>
>
> Ed,
>
> You're right! As the number reaches 12 or more the permutations get into
> the billions! There are some mathematicians who have made some algorithms
> that "approximate" the ideal solution with considerably less
> computations. I'm no rocket scientist and I'm not going to the moon, so
> maybe an approximate solution would do.
>
> Smokey
>
>
> >
> > From: "Ed Anderson" < eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com (eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com)>
> > Date: 2007/06/17 Sun AM 10:39:53 EDT
> > To: <rvsoutheast-list(at)matronics.com (rvsoutheast-list(at)matronics.com)>
> > Subject: Re: Re: NC Airports - 110 destinations
> >
> > As I recall, it doesn't take very many nodes in the "traveling Salesman"
> problem for the possible permutations to quickly become large enough to
> take an excessive amount of time to solve on the computers of the day (maybe
> even the home computers of today).
> >
> > Ed
> >
> > ---
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ronschreck
Joined: 04 Aug 2006
Posts: 192
Location: Gold Hill Airpark, NC (NC25)
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 8:47 am Post subject: NC Airports - 110 destinations |
|
|
James,
I have contacted the NC DOT Aviation Division and asked for any help they can provide. Hope to hear something soon.
Smokey
[quote]
From: "James Clark" <jclarkmail(at)gmail.com>
Date: 2007/06/17 Sun AM 11:33:34 EDT
To: rvsoutheast-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: NC Airports - 110 destinations
Ooops. You are correct.
That was on some of my FLORIDA charts!! And they did not have every airport,
just the majors.
I suspect the Department of Transportation has the data though. A lot of
points though ... I think nxn/2
James
On 6/17/07, Ron Schreck <ronschreck(at)windstream.net> wrote:
>
>
> ronschreck(at)windstream.net>
>
> James,
>
> I have the NC Aeronautical Chart and I don't see any distances listed. I
> may put all of the airports on a flight planning program and start
> connecting dots. Very unscientific, but I'm no rocket scientist.
>
> Smokey
> >
> > From: "James Clark" <jclarkmail(at)gmail.com>
> > Date: 2007/06/17 Sun AM 10:53:03 EDT
> > To: rvsoutheast-list(at)matronics.com
> > Subject: Re: Re: NC Airports - 110 destinations
> >
> > Ron,
> >
> > I bet you didn't realize you were opening such a can of mathematical
> worms
> > did ya?
> >
> > It is a simple to describe but tough to solve problem.
> >
> > I was doing some envelope scratching to see if I could come up with a
> way to
> > do it easily in Excel. (My head is hurting now. )
> >
> > Ask your friends if they have an Excel solution that can handle a
> 100x100
> > matrix. I **think** there may be a way to get "solver" in Excel to do
> such.
> >
> > Then the only "work to do is enter the distances from/to all of the
> > airports. That data is typically o the backs of the state aeronautical
> > charts as I recall.
> >
> > We just might have a "solution" be fore the day is over. If so, I
> plan
> > to apply it to SC, which has <100 public airports.
> >
> > James
> > p.s. Seems like there was an article about this where a guy in NJ did
> this.
> > There are fewer airports there and I think it was done in a day. The guy
> may
> > have been associated with Princeton. My mind is fuzzy right now.
> >
> >
> >
> > On 6/17/07, Ron Schreck <ronschreck(at)windstream.net> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > ronschreck(at)windstream.net>
> > >
> > > Ed,
> > >
> > > You're right! As the number reaches 12 or more the permutations get
> into
> > > the billions! There are some mathematicians who have made some
> algorithms
> > > that "approximate" the ideal solution with considerably less
> > > computations. I'm no rocket scientist and I'm not going to the moon,
> so
> > > maybe an approximate solution would do.
> > >
> > > Smokey
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > From: "Ed Anderson" <eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com>
> > > > Date: 2007/06/17 Sun AM 10:39:53 EDT
> > > > To: <rvsoutheast-list(at)matronics.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: Re: NC Airports - 110 destinations
> > > >
> > > > As I recall, it doesn't take very many nodes in the "traveling
> Salesman"
> > > problem for the possible permutations to quickly become large
> enough to
> > > take an excessive amount of time to solve on the computers of the day
> (maybe
> > > even the home computers of today).
> > > >
> > > > Ed
> > > >
> > > > ---
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ceengland(at)bellsouth.ne
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 12:48 pm Post subject: NC Airports - 110 destinations |
|
|
Radomir Zaric wrote:
| Quote: |
I've thought of something like that..
I think it has been done in other states.. forgot which one it was.
Anyways, put "Traveling Salesman Problem" in Google and see if you find the
right software... that'll solve the main problem -- how to visit each place
once, and only once while minimizing time/gas/money spent on the trip.
Good luck!
|
A couple of friends did it in MS about 15 years ago; I don't think they
realized that it had been done 30 or 40 years earlier.
I suspect that their planning was 'map & yardstick on the table'; one
doesn't even own a computer & that long ago I doubt the other did either.
Charlie
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flyguy
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 325
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 4:41 pm Post subject: NC Airports - 110 destinations |
|
|
was in the 90s. A ANGuard pilot friend named Hank
Dutch ran it. Reno.
--- Radomir Zaric <vitez(at)carolina.rr.com> wrote:
[quote]
"Brockenbrough Airport was apparently closed (for
reasons unknown) at some
point between 1972-98"
--
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flyguy
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 325
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 4:48 pm Post subject: NC Airports - 110 destinations |
|
|
BTW guys, there are WAY more than 110 airports in NC..
I can show 20 near clt counting all the private ones,
many which I have visited. I bet its 200+. Reno.
--- James Clark <jclarkmail(at)gmail.com> wrote:
[quote] Ooops. You are correct.
That was on some of my FLORIDA charts!! And they did
not have every airport,
just the majors.
I suspect the Department of Transportation has the
data though. A lot of
points though ... I think nxn/2
James
On 6/17/07, Ron Schreck <ronschreck(at)windstream.net>
wrote:
>
>
Schreck <
> ronschreck(at)windstream.net>
>
> James,
>
> I have the NC Aeronautical Chart and I don't see
any distances listed. I
> may put all of the airports on a flight planning
program and start
> connecting dots. Very unscientific, but I'm no
rocket scientist.
>
> Smokey
> >
> > From: "James Clark" <jclarkmail(at)gmail.com>
> > Date: 2007/06/17 Sun AM 10:53:03 EDT
> > To: rvsoutheast-list(at)matronics.com
> > Subject: Re: Re: NC Airports -
110 destinations
> >
> > Ron,
> >
> > I bet you didn't realize you were opening such a
can of mathematical
> worms
> > did ya?
> >
> > It is a simple to describe but tough to solve
problem.
> >
> > I was doing some envelope scratching to see if I
could come up with a
> way to
> > do it easily in Excel. (My head is hurting now.
)
> >
> > Ask your friends if they have an Excel solution
that can handle a
> 100x100
> > matrix. I **think** there may be a way to get
"solver" in Excel to do
> such.
> >
> > Then the only "work to do is enter the distances
from/to all of the
> > airports. That data is typically o the backs of
the state aeronautical
> > charts as I recall.
> >
> > We just might have a "solution" be fore the day
is over. If so, I
> plan
> > to apply it to SC, which has <100 public
airports.
> >
> > James
> > p.s. Seems like there was an article about this
where a guy in NJ did
> this.
> > There are fewer airports there and I think it
was done in a day. The guy
> may
> > have been associated with Princeton. My mind is
fuzzy right now.
> >
> >
> >
> > On 6/17/07, Ron Schreck
<ronschreck(at)windstream.net> wrote:
> > >
> > >
Schreck <
> > > ronschreck(at)windstream.net>
> > >
> > > Ed,
> > >
> > > You're right! As the number reaches 12 or
more the permutations get
> into
> > > the billions! There are some mathematicians
who have made some
> algorithms
> > > that "approximate" the ideal solution with
considerably less
> > > computations. I'm no rocket scientist and I'm
not going to the moon,
> so
> > > maybe an approximate solution would do.
> > >
> > > Smokey
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > From: "Ed Anderson"
<eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com>
> > > > Date: 2007/06/17 Sun AM 10:39:53 EDT
> > > > To: <rvsoutheast-list(at)matronics.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: Re: NC
Airports - 110 destinations
> > > >
> > > > As I recall, it doesn't take very many nodes
in the "traveling
> Salesman"
> > > problem for the possible permutations to
quickly become large
> enough to
> > > take an excessive amount of time to solve on
the computers of the day
> (maybe
> > > even the home computers of today).
> > > >
> > > > Ed
> > > >
> > > > ---
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ronschreck
Joined: 04 Aug 2006
Posts: 192
Location: Gold Hill Airpark, NC (NC25)
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 6:29 pm Post subject: NC Airports - 110 destinations |
|
|
Charlie,
I have already found two mathemeticians who are helping me with the TSP solution. My rough "yardstick" calculations give a route of about 1800 miles. Even at 140 knots and with 4 fuel stops I think I can keep the trip under 15 hours. I'm still working on it. I have asked the NC DOT Dept of Aviation if anyone has done it before. No reply yet. More to come.
Ron
| Quote: |
From: Charlie England <ceengland(at)bellsouth.net>
Date: 2007/06/17 Sun PM 04:47:44 EDT
To: rvsoutheast-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: NC Airports - 110 destinations
Radomir Zaric wrote:
>
>
> I've thought of something like that..
>
> I think it has been done in other states.. forgot which one it was.
>
> Anyways, put "Traveling Salesman Problem" in Google and see if you find the
> right software... that'll solve the main problem -- how to visit each place
> once, and only once while minimizing time/gas/money spent on the trip.
>
> Good luck!
A couple of friends did it in MS about 15 years ago; I don't think they
realized that it had been done 30 or 40 years earlier.
I suspect that their planning was 'map & yardstick on the table'; one
doesn't even own a computer & that long ago I doubt the other did either.
Charlie
|
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ronschreck
Joined: 04 Aug 2006
Posts: 192
Location: Gold Hill Airpark, NC (NC25)
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 6:41 pm Post subject: NC Airports - 110 destinations |
|
|
Bill,
The NC DOT Avaiation Division's "NC Airport Guide" lists 110 PUBLIC airports. They say there are about 300 private airports and heliports. I had to pick reasonable criteria. Can't imagine trying to get permission to land at hundreds of private airports and certainly not in one day!
Smokey
[quote]
From: bill crothers <bill28104(at)yahoo.com>
Date: 2007/06/17 Sun PM 08:47:53 EDT
To: rvsoutheast-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: NC Airports - 110 destinations
BTW guys, there are WAY more than 110 airports in NC..
I can show 20 near clt counting all the private ones,
many which I have visited. I bet its 200+. Reno.
--- James Clark <jclarkmail(at)gmail.com> wrote:
> Ooops. You are correct.
>
> That was on some of my FLORIDA charts!! And they did
> not have every airport,
> just the majors.
>
> I suspect the Department of Transportation has the
> data though. A lot of
> points though ... I think nxn/2
>
> James
>
>
> On 6/17/07, Ron Schreck <ronschreck(at)windstream.net>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> Schreck <
> > ronschreck(at)windstream.net>
> >
> > James,
> >
> > I have the NC Aeronautical Chart and I don't see
> any distances listed. I
> > may put all of the airports on a flight planning
> program and start
> > connecting dots. Very unscientific, but I'm no
> rocket scientist.
> >
> > Smokey
> > >
> > > From: "James Clark" <jclarkmail(at)gmail.com>
> > > Date: 2007/06/17 Sun AM 10:53:03 EDT
> > > To: rvsoutheast-list(at)matronics.com
> > > Subject: Re: Re: NC Airports -
> 110 destinations
> > >
> > > Ron,
> > >
> > > I bet you didn't realize you were opening such a
> can of mathematical
> > worms
> > > did ya?
> > >
> > > It is a simple to describe but tough to solve
> problem.
> > >
> > > I was doing some envelope scratching to see if I
> could come up with a
> > way to
> > > do it easily in Excel. (My head is hurting now.
> )
> > >
> > > Ask your friends if they have an Excel solution
> that can handle a
> > 100x100
> > > matrix. I **think** there may be a way to get
> "solver" in Excel to do
> > such.
> > >
> > > Then the only "work to do is enter the distances
> from/to all of the
> > > airports. That data is typically o the backs of
> the state aeronautical
> > > charts as I recall.
> > >
> > > We just might have a "solution" be fore the day
> is over. If so, I
> > plan
> > > to apply it to SC, which has <100 public
> airports.
> > >
> > > James
> > > p.s. Seems like there was an article about this
> where a guy in NJ did
> > this.
> > > There are fewer airports there and I think it
> was done in a day. The guy
> > may
> > > have been associated with Princeton. My mind is
> fuzzy right now.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 6/17/07, Ron Schreck
> <ronschreck(at)windstream.net> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> Schreck <
> > > > ronschreck(at)windstream.net>
> > > >
> > > > Ed,
> > > >
> > > > You're right! As the number reaches 12 or
> more the permutations get
> > into
> > > > the billions! There are some mathematicians
> who have made some
> > algorithms
> > > > that "approximate" the ideal solution with
> considerably less
> > > > computations. I'm no rocket scientist and I'm
> not going to the moon,
> > so
> > > > maybe an approximate solution would do.
> > > >
> > > > Smokey
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > From: "Ed Anderson"
> <eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com>
> > > > > Date: 2007/06/17 Sun AM 10:39:53 EDT
> > > > > To: <rvsoutheast-list(at)matronics.com>
> > > > > Subject: Re: Re: NC
> Airports - 110 destinations
> > > > >
> > > > > As I recall, it doesn't take very many nodes
> in the "traveling
> > Salesman"
> > > > problem for the possible permutations to
> quickly become large
> > enough to
> > > > take an excessive amount of time to solve on
> the computers of the day
> > (maybe
> > > > even the home computers of today).
> > > > >
> > > > > Ed
> > > > >
> > > > > ---
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ceengland(at)bellsouth.ne
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 7:14 pm Post subject: NC Airports - 110 destinations |
|
|
I talked to my neighbor today; they did 90+ airports in about 19 hours,
including some missteps with the other pilot's just-acquired, brand new
technology GPS. A/C was a Cessna 180.
Have fun...
Ron Schreck wrote:
| Quote: |
Charlie,
I have already found two mathemeticians who are helping me with the TSP solution. My rough "yardstick" calculations give a route of about 1800 miles. Even at 140 knots and with 4 fuel stops I think I can keep the trip under 15 hours. I'm still working on it. I have asked the NC DOT Dept of Aviation if anyone has done it before. No reply yet. More to come.
Ron
> From: Charlie England <ceengland(at)bellsouth.net>
> Date: 2007/06/17 Sun PM 04:47:44 EDT
> To: rvsoutheast-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: NC Airports - 110 destinations
>
>
>
> Radomir Zaric wrote:
>>
>>
>> I've thought of something like that..
>>
>> I think it has been done in other states.. forgot which one it was.
>>
>> Anyways, put "Traveling Salesman Problem" in Google and see if you find the
>> right software... that'll solve the main problem -- how to visit each place
>> once, and only once while minimizing time/gas/money spent on the trip.
>>
>> Good luck!
> A couple of friends did it in MS about 15 years ago; I don't think they
> realized that it had been done 30 or 40 years earlier.
>
> I suspect that their planning was 'map & yardstick on the table'; one
> doesn't even own a computer & that long ago I doubt the other did either.
>
> Charlie
>
|
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flyguy
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 325
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 4:33 am Post subject: NC Airports - 110 destinations |
|
|
doing the 110 would be a great accomplishment even
over a period of time...I think I'll work towards
filling in my blanks by yr. end. Will compile a list
soon.. keep us updated .RR
--- Ron Schreck <ronschreck(at)windstream.net> wrote:
[quote]
<ronschreck(at)windstream.net>
Bill,
The NC DOT Avaiation Division's "NC Airport Guide"
lists 110 PUBLIC airports. They say there are about
300 private airports and heliports. I had to pick
reasonable criteria. Can't imagine trying to get
permission to land at hundreds of private airports
and certainly not in one day!
Smokey
>
> From: bill crothers <bill28104(at)yahoo.com>
> Date: 2007/06/17 Sun PM 08:47:53 EDT
> To: rvsoutheast-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Re: NC Airports -
110 destinations
>
>
crothers <bill28104(at)yahoo.com>
>
> BTW guys, there are WAY more than 110 airports in
NC..
> I can show 20 near clt counting all the private
ones,
> many which I have visited. I bet its 200+. Reno.
> --- James Clark <jclarkmail(at)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Ooops. You are correct.
> >
> > That was on some of my FLORIDA charts!! And they
did
> > not have every airport,
> > just the majors.
> >
> > I suspect the Department of Transportation has
the
> > data though. A lot of
> > points though ... I think nxn/2
> >
> > James
> >
> >
> > On 6/17/07, Ron Schreck
<ronschreck(at)windstream.net>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > Schreck <
> > > ronschreck(at)windstream.net>
> > >
> > > James,
> > >
> > > I have the NC Aeronautical Chart and I don't
see
> > any distances listed. I
> > > may put all of the airports on a flight
planning
> > program and start
> > > connecting dots. Very unscientific, but I'm
no
> > rocket scientist.
> > >
> > > Smokey
> > > >
> > > > From: "James Clark" <jclarkmail(at)gmail.com>
> > > > Date: 2007/06/17 Sun AM 10:53:03 EDT
> > > > To: rvsoutheast-list(at)matronics.com
> > > > Subject: Re: Re: NC
Airports -
> > 110 destinations
> > > >
> > > > Ron,
> > > >
> > > > I bet you didn't realize you were opening
such a
> > can of mathematical
> > > worms
> > > > did ya?
> > > >
> > > > It is a simple to describe but tough to
solve
> > problem.
> > > >
> > > > I was doing some envelope scratching to see
if I
> > could come up with a
> > > way to
> > > > do it easily in Excel. (My head is hurting
now.
> > )
> > > >
> > > > Ask your friends if they have an Excel
solution
> > that can handle a
> > > 100x100
> > > > matrix. I **think** there may be a way to
get
> > "solver" in Excel to do
> > > such.
> > > >
> > > > Then the only "work to do is enter the
distances
> > from/to all of the
> > > > airports. That data is typically o the backs
of
> > the state aeronautical
> > > > charts as I recall.
> > > >
> > > > We just might have a "solution" be fore the
day
> > is over. If so, I
> > > plan
> > > > to apply it to SC, which has <100 public
> > airports.
> > > >
> > > > James
> > > > p.s. Seems like there was an article about
this
> > where a guy in NJ did
> > > this.
> > > > There are fewer airports there and I think
it
> > was done in a day. The guy
> > > may
> > > > have been associated with Princeton. My mind
is
> > fuzzy right now.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 6/17/07, Ron Schreck
> > <ronschreck(at)windstream.net> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
Ron
> > Schreck <
> > > > > ronschreck(at)windstream.net>
> > > > >
> > > > > Ed,
> > > > >
> > > > > You're right! As the number reaches 12 or
> > more the permutations get
> > > into
> > > > > the billions! There are some
mathematicians
> > who have made some
> > > algorithms
> > > > > that "approximate" the ideal solution with
> > considerably less
> > > > > computations. I'm no rocket scientist and
I'm
> > not going to the moon,
> > > so
> > > > > maybe an approximate solution would do.
> > > > >
> > > > > Smokey
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > From: "Ed Anderson"
> > <eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com>
> > > > > > Date: 2007/06/17 Sun AM 10:39:53 EDT
> > > > > > To: <rvsoutheast-list(at)matronics.com>
> > > > > > Subject: Re: Re: NC
> > Airports - 110 destinations
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As I recall, it doesn't take very many
nodes
> > in the "traveling
> > > Salesman"
> > > > > problem for the possible permutations to
> > quickly become large
> > > enough to
> > > > > take an excessive amount of time to solve
on
> > the computers of the day
> > > (maybe
> > > > > even the home computers of today).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ed
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ---
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flyguy
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 325
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 4:13 pm Post subject: NC Airports - 110 destinations |
|
|
Hey Ron, are you including turf rw's? I just updated
my remaining airports and have 19 left not counting a
bunch of turf including at least 2 of 1400'. most at
coast or W. mtns.
--- Ron Schreck <ronschreck(at)windstream.net> wrote:
[quote]
<ronschreck(at)windstream.net>
Bill,
The NC DOT Avaiation Division's "NC Airport Guide"
lists 110 PUBLIC airports. They say there are about
300 private airports and heliports. I had to pick
reasonable criteria. Can't imagine trying to get
permission to land at hundreds of private airports
and certainly not in one day!
Smokey
>
> From: bill crothers <bill28104(at)yahoo.com>
> Date: 2007/06/17 Sun PM 08:47:53 EDT
> To: rvsoutheast-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Re: NC Airports -
110 destinations
>
>
crothers <bill28104(at)yahoo.com>
>
> BTW guys, there are WAY more than 110 airports in
NC..
> I can show 20 near clt counting all the private
ones,
> many which I have visited. I bet its 200+. Reno.
> --- James Clark <jclarkmail(at)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Ooops. You are correct.
> >
> > That was on some of my FLORIDA charts!! And they
did
> > not have every airport,
> > just the majors.
> >
> > I suspect the Department of Transportation has
the
> > data though. A lot of
> > points though ... I think nxn/2
> >
> > James
> >
> >
> > On 6/17/07, Ron Schreck
<ronschreck(at)windstream.net>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > Schreck <
> > > ronschreck(at)windstream.net>
> > >
> > > James,
> > >
> > > I have the NC Aeronautical Chart and I don't
see
> > any distances listed. I
> > > may put all of the airports on a flight
planning
> > program and start
> > > connecting dots. Very unscientific, but I'm
no
> > rocket scientist.
> > >
> > > Smokey
> > > >
> > > > From: "James Clark" <jclarkmail(at)gmail.com>
> > > > Date: 2007/06/17 Sun AM 10:53:03 EDT
> > > > To: rvsoutheast-list(at)matronics.com
> > > > Subject: Re: Re: NC
Airports -
> > 110 destinations
> > > >
> > > > Ron,
> > > >
> > > > I bet you didn't realize you were opening
such a
> > can of mathematical
> > > worms
> > > > did ya?
> > > >
> > > > It is a simple to describe but tough to
solve
> > problem.
> > > >
> > > > I was doing some envelope scratching to see
if I
> > could come up with a
> > > way to
> > > > do it easily in Excel. (My head is hurting
now.
> > )
> > > >
> > > > Ask your friends if they have an Excel
solution
> > that can handle a
> > > 100x100
> > > > matrix. I **think** there may be a way to
get
> > "solver" in Excel to do
> > > such.
> > > >
> > > > Then the only "work to do is enter the
distances
> > from/to all of the
> > > > airports. That data is typically o the backs
of
> > the state aeronautical
> > > > charts as I recall.
> > > >
> > > > We just might have a "solution" be fore the
day
> > is over. If so, I
> > > plan
> > > > to apply it to SC, which has <100 public
> > airports.
> > > >
> > > > James
> > > > p.s. Seems like there was an article about
this
> > where a guy in NJ did
> > > this.
> > > > There are fewer airports there and I think
it
> > was done in a day. The guy
> > > may
> > > > have been associated with Princeton. My mind
is
> > fuzzy right now.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 6/17/07, Ron Schreck
> > <ronschreck(at)windstream.net> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
Ron
> > Schreck <
> > > > > ronschreck(at)windstream.net>
> > > > >
> > > > > Ed,
> > > > >
> > > > > You're right! As the number reaches 12 or
> > more the permutations get
> > > into
> > > > > the billions! There are some
mathematicians
> > who have made some
> > > algorithms
> > > > > that "approximate" the ideal solution with
> > considerably less
> > > > > computations. I'm no rocket scientist and
I'm
> > not going to the moon,
> > > so
> > > > > maybe an approximate solution would do.
> > > > >
> > > > > Smokey
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > From: "Ed Anderson"
> > <eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com>
> > > > > > Date: 2007/06/17 Sun AM 10:39:53 EDT
> > > > > > To: <rvsoutheast-list(at)matronics.com>
> > > > > > Subject: Re: Re: NC
> > Airports - 110 destinations
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As I recall, it doesn't take very many
nodes
> > in the "traveling
> > > Salesman"
> > > > > problem for the possible permutations to
> > quickly become large
> > > enough to
> > > > > take an excessive amount of time to solve
on
> > the computers of the day
> > > (maybe
> > > > > even the home computers of today).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ed
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ---
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ronschreck
Joined: 04 Aug 2006
Posts: 192
Location: Gold Hill Airpark, NC (NC25)
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 5:55 pm Post subject: NC Airports - 110 destinations |
|
|
Bill,
There are about 20 turf public airports in NC. Hope they mow them before I get there!
Ron
[quote]
From: bill crothers <bill28104(at)yahoo.com>
Date: 2007/06/18 Mon PM 08:13:05 EDT
To: rvsoutheast-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: NC Airports - 110 destinations
Hey Ron, are you including turf rw's? I just updated
my remaining airports and have 19 left not counting a
bunch of turf including at least 2 of 1400'. most at
coast or W. mtns.
--- Ron Schreck <ronschreck(at)windstream.net> wrote:
>
> <ronschreck(at)windstream.net>
>
> Bill,
>
> The NC DOT Avaiation Division's "NC Airport Guide"
> lists 110 PUBLIC airports. They say there are about
> 300 private airports and heliports. I had to pick
> reasonable criteria. Can't imagine trying to get
> permission to land at hundreds of private airports
> and certainly not in one day!
>
> Smokey
> >
> > From: bill crothers <bill28104(at)yahoo.com>
> > Date: 2007/06/17 Sun PM 08:47:53 EDT
> > To: rvsoutheast-list(at)matronics.com
> > Subject: Re: Re: NC Airports -
> 110 destinations
> >
> >
> crothers <bill28104(at)yahoo.com>
> >
> > BTW guys, there are WAY more than 110 airports in
> NC..
> > I can show 20 near clt counting all the private
> ones,
> > many which I have visited. I bet its 200+. Reno.
> > --- James Clark <jclarkmail(at)gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Ooops. You are correct.
> > >
> > > That was on some of my FLORIDA charts!! And they
> did
> > > not have every airport,
> > > just the majors.
> > >
> > > I suspect the Department of Transportation has
> the
> > > data though. A lot of
> > > points though ... I think nxn/2
> > >
> > > James
> > >
> > >
> > > On 6/17/07, Ron Schreck
> <ronschreck(at)windstream.net>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > Schreck <
> > > > ronschreck(at)windstream.net>
> > > >
> > > > James,
> > > >
> > > > I have the NC Aeronautical Chart and I don't
> see
> > > any distances listed. I
> > > > may put all of the airports on a flight
> planning
> > > program and start
> > > > connecting dots. Very unscientific, but I'm
> no
> > > rocket scientist.
> > > >
> > > > Smokey
> > > > >
> > > > > From: "James Clark" <jclarkmail(at)gmail.com>
> > > > > Date: 2007/06/17 Sun AM 10:53:03 EDT
> > > > > To: rvsoutheast-list(at)matronics.com
> > > > > Subject: Re: Re: NC
> Airports -
> > > 110 destinations
> > > > >
> > > > > Ron,
> > > > >
> > > > > I bet you didn't realize you were opening
> such a
> > > can of mathematical
> > > > worms
> > > > > did ya?
> > > > >
> > > > > It is a simple to describe but tough to
> solve
> > > problem.
> > > > >
> > > > > I was doing some envelope scratching to see
> if I
> > > could come up with a
> > > > way to
> > > > > do it easily in Excel. (My head is hurting
> now.
> > > )
> > > > >
> > > > > Ask your friends if they have an Excel
> solution
> > > that can handle a
> > > > 100x100
> > > > > matrix. I **think** there may be a way to
> get
> > > "solver" in Excel to do
> > > > such.
> > > > >
> > > > > Then the only "work to do is enter the
> distances
> > > from/to all of the
> > > > > airports. That data is typically o the backs
> of
> > > the state aeronautical
> > > > > charts as I recall.
> > > > >
> > > > > We just might have a "solution" be fore the
> day
> > > is over. If so, I
> > > > plan
> > > > > to apply it to SC, which has <100 public
> > > airports.
> > > > >
> > > > > James
> > > > > p.s. Seems like there was an article about
> this
> > > where a guy in NJ did
> > > > this.
> > > > > There are fewer airports there and I think
> it
> > > was done in a day. The guy
> > > > may
> > > > > have been associated with Princeton. My mind
> is
> > > fuzzy right now.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On 6/17/07, Ron Schreck
> > > <ronschreck(at)windstream.net> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> Ron
> > > Schreck <
> > > > > > ronschreck(at)windstream.net>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ed,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You're right! As the number reaches 12 or
> > > more the permutations get
> > > > into
> > > > > > the billions! There are some
> mathematicians
> > > who have made some
> > > > algorithms
> > > > > > that "approximate" the ideal solution with
> > > considerably less
> > > > > > computations. I'm no rocket scientist and
> I'm
> > > not going to the moon,
> > > > so
> > > > > > maybe an approximate solution would do.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Smokey
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > From: "Ed Anderson"
> > > <eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com>
> > > > > > > Date: 2007/06/17 Sun AM 10:39:53 EDT
> > > > > > > To: <rvsoutheast-list(at)matronics.com>
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: Re: NC
> > > Airports - 110 destinations
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > As I recall, it doesn't take very many
> nodes
> > > in the "traveling
> > > > Salesman"
> > > > > > problem for the possible permutations to
> > > quickly become large
> > > > enough to
> > > > > > take an excessive amount of time to solve
> on
> > > the computers of the day
> > > > (maybe
> > > > > > even the home computers of today).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Ed
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ---
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bill(at)repucci.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 6:58 pm Post subject: NC Airports - 110 destinations |
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I'm thinking you should do this in Rhode Island. They must have, what,
like 4 airports in the entire state?
--
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