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sam(at)fr8dog.net
Guest

Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 3:23 pm Post subject: Flaps

Tell me Jesse, are you calling "0" actually "0" or is that the -3 degree position.

 

 Jesse Saint wrote: [quote]         v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}  <![endif]-->   st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }  <![endif]-->          <![endif]-->       <![endif]-->         

I would think that when in IMC and focusing on getting to the ground, not having to count seconds would be a great way to lighten the workload on the pilot and keep his attention to the needles (or monitoring the Auto Pilot).  In most conditions it wouldn’t make much difference, but it is nice to not have to count.  When you have flown for a while you can feel the change when you lower the flaps with the FPS and know where they are (ie. 0, 15, or 30).   

    

Do not archive   

       

Jesse Saint   

Saint Aviation, Inc.   

jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)   

www.saintaviation.com   

Cell: 352-427-0285   

Fax: 815-377-3694   

         

   

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of linn Walters

   Sent: Monday, May 21, 2007 9:52 AM

   To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)

   Subject: Re: Flaps   

   

    

Interesting thread.  I haven't given it serious thought. Since I'm not flying yet, is there something that prevents you from using your Mark-1 eyeballs on the flap ... like requiring you to have the neck bones of an owl???  Does the 'counting seconds' method of coming close to what you want (or are used to) not work??  Just wondering out loud here.

 Linn

 do not archive

   

 RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote:

   

      

   <![endif]-->        <![endif]-->Here are your main two options:   

    

http://www.aircraftextras.com/FPS-Plus.htm   

    

http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/catalog.cgi?ident=1179752413-22-378&browse=airframe&product=fps   

    

I’m going with the Aircraft Extras product however you have to come up with your own position sensor for theirs.  Most people seem to be using a POS-12 from Ray Allen for this purpose.   

    

http://www.rayallencompany.com/products/indsens.html   

    

Michael Sausen   

-10 #352 Limbo   

          

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)]   On Behalf Of Sam Marlow

   Sent: Monday, May 21, 2007 7:39 AM

   To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)

   Subject: RV10-List: Flaps   

   

   

    

I'm finding little information on the flap positioning system, just wondering what the majority of the group is doing here. After all, the flaps are different than any airplane I've ever flown.

 Thanks,

 Sam Marlow

 Still wiring    	  Quote: 	
		    ;         - The RV10-List Email Forarch & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,_;  --> http://www.matronics.bsp;         - NEW MATRONICS WEB FO; http://forums.matronics.com    	
   

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LloydDR(at)wernerco.com
Guest

Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 6:20 pm Post subject: Flaps

During transition training we took off with zero flaps, and had no

issues climbing in excess of 2k a minute at 120mph

Dan

N289DT Finishing the cowl for the RV10E install 



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Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2882

Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 8:11 pm Post subject: Flaps

I also use full-up to reflex for my normal takeoff and climb.  If I were

in a short field situation, or had any reason to doubt my takeoff

distance, I'd use 15 flaps, but otherwise I see no real reason in

the -10 not to just leave them up for simplicity.  I still climb

out very well and really don't see a need on most flights to

use flaps except for on landing.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

Lloyd, Daniel R. wrote:

[quote] 

 

 During transition training we took off with zero flaps, and had no

 issues climbing in excess of 2k a minute at 120mph

 Dan

 N289DT Finishing the cowl for the RV10E install 

 

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indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 8:55 pm Post subject: Flaps

How is the quality of that James Cowl in comparison to other Van's supplied 

fiberglass.



John G.

[quote]From: "Lloyd, Daniel R." <LloydDR(at)wernerco.com>

Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

To: <rv10-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: RE: Flaps

Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 22:17:20 -0400






During transition training we took off with zero flaps, and had no

issues climbing in excess of 2k a minute at 120mph

Dan

N289DT Finishing the cowl for the RV10E install



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Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2882

Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 3:36 am Post subject: Flaps

Yeah really, 87kts.  The approaches are pretty comfortable to fly at 

95-100kts with no flaps though, or depending on the bumps and vis

you may even fly them at 120kts.  I've never been asked to keep my

speed up on an IFR approach, but have been asked on a totally

VFR day.  In general, slowing down isn't what I'd call easy, but

you really need to get familiar with the RV-10 and get a good

feel for it.  Once you do that you can do a lot of things.  If

you can get it down under 100kts though, an approach would be no

big deal.



My comment about the Johnson bar was, yeah, that's the indicator, but

just by looking at it, you couldn't always see quickly how much flaps

you put out too.  There were 3 notches, and it was easy to have 2 out

when you wanted 3, and you had to pull the lever to verify which one

of those positions you were at.  So while it was an indicator, it

was a crude one, and it wasn't impossible to get confused as to

exactly where it was set.  At least in the RV-10 there are only 2

"real" flap positions to worry about, and for the most part, if you

just set the flaps to the first one you would be fine except

for possibly when you really want that extra drag of full flaps.



Like I said though, the biggest shortcoming is that 87kt Vfe.  If

you're trying to fly a pattern using something like 85, 85, 75, you

really have to be careful not to find yourself accelerating to 90+.

I try to get as stabilized as possible and fly my patterns at

80,80,75kts, but allow myself some upwards leeway on the 80's

and call it 80-85.  You don't want to get below 70kts, and

75kts is really comfortable, so you're only dealing with 12kts of

margin between your max flap speed and your comfortable short

final speed.  That's why on IFR approaches it's just easier to

fly a stable approach with no flaps and just keep the speed

up 10kts...and add them as required when the runway is in sight.

Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

John Jessen wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 The Johnson bar was your indicator.  

 

 Really?  87 knots before flaps!  Have you been on approach when the

 controller has asked you to keep your speed up?  Any issues slowing down?  

 

 John Jessen

   328

 

 do not archive

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jesse(at)saintaviation.co
Guest

Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 4:59 am Post subject: Flaps

“0” is actually “0”.  If you drop one notch and don’t feel a difference, then you are at “0”.  If you give it another notch, then you can feel them going to “15”, and then on to “30” as Tim mentioned.  We normally takeoff with 15, then go all the way up and back down to “0” for climb, then all the way up for cruise, but going all the way up for climb doesn’t make that much difference.  You actually probably get better airspeed in the climb with them all the way up, just don’t climb quite as fast, so on a long trip, it probably will end up the same.  

   

Do not archive  

     

Jesse Saint  

Saint Aviation, Inc.  

jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)  

www.saintaviation.com  

Cell: 352-427-0285  

Fax: 815-377-3694  

        

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam Marlow

 Sent: Monday, May 21, 2007 7:23 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Flaps  

  

   

Tell me Jesse, are you calling "0" actually "0" or is that the -3 degree position.

 

 Jesse Saint wrote:   

    <![endif]-->           <![endif]-->I would think that when in IMC and focusing on getting to the ground, not having to count seconds would be a great way to lighten the workload on the pilot and keep his attention to the needles (or monitoring the Auto Pilot).  In most conditions it wouldn’t make much difference, but it is nice to not have to count.  When you have flown for a while you can feel the change when you lower the flaps with the FPS and know where they are (ie. 0, 15, or 30).  

   

Do not archive  

     

Jesse Saint  

Saint Aviation, Inc.  

jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)  

www.saintaviation.com  

Cell: 352-427-0285  

Fax: 815-377-3694  

          

  

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of linn Walters

 Sent: Monday, May 21, 2007 9:52 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)

 Subject: Re: Flaps  

    

   

Interesting thread.  I haven't given it serious thought. Since I'm not flying yet, is there something that prevents you from using your Mark-1 eyeballs on the flap ... like requiring you to have the neck bones of an owl???  Does the 'counting seconds' method of coming close to what you want (or are used to) not work??  Just wondering out loud here.

 Linn

 do not archive

 

 RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote:

 

 

     

   <![endif]-->        <![endif]-->Here are your main two options:  

   

http://www.aircraftextras.com/FPS-Plus.htm  

   

http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/catalog.cgi?ident=1179752413-22-378&browse=airframe&product=fps  

   

I’m going with the Aircraft Extras product however you have to come up with your own position sensor for theirs.  Most people seem to be using a POS-12 from Ray Allen for this purpose.  

   

http://www.rayallencompany.com/products/indsens.html  

   

Michael Sausen  

-10 #352 Limbo  

       

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Sam Marlow

 Sent: Monday, May 21, 2007 7:39 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)

 Subject: Flaps  

  

  

   

I'm finding little information on the flap positioning system, just wondering what the majority of the group is doing here. After all, the flaps are different than any airplane I've ever flown.

 Thanks,

 Sam Marlow

 Still wiring   	  Quote: 	
		    ;         - The RV10-List Email Forarch & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,_;  --> http://www.matronics.bsp;         - NEW MATRONICS WEB FO; http://forums.matronics.com    	
  

   [quote]  http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com      http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com [b]

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wcurtis(at)nerv10.com
Guest

Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 9:15 am Post subject: Flaps

Robert,



 	  Quote: 	
		  From you email address, it seems like you are accustomed to flying fast jets or turbines where stabilized approaches are very important and keeping speeds up are not a concern.  In the world of piston singles I fly, when landing at an airport frequented by fast jets, quite often I hear "keep your speeds up" as usually there is a fast jet (on a stabilized approach) behind me.   Flight schools that gear their pupils to commercial (turbine) flying ofter emphasize the "stabilized approach."  This may be heresy to some but, while I agree that the stabilized approach is very important to the slow reacting turbines (not the turbines themselves, but the build-up of thrust they produce), it's just silly for piston singles.  So often I see piston single pilots doing extremely loooong flat "stabilized approaches" to an uncontrolled 3000 foot strip, cause that's what they were taught when a more efficient tighter, steeper approach would be better and safer.


	


Coming into a 2-3000 feet field, my typical approach speed is about 70kts (not the RV-10).  Doing that same 70kt at Greensboro International airport will most surely invoke a "keep your speed up" prompt from the controller.  For that airport with it's 10,000 feet runway, I don't have a problem "keeping my speed up" and coming in at 90kts.



William

http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/ 



------

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LloydDR(at)wernerco.com
Guest

Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 6:56 pm Post subject: Flaps

The fit and finish on the James cowl is excellent in comparison to the

standard cowl. In addition I just received the intersection fairings

from Bob, and it is night and day comparison. I would highly recommend

leaving the Vans fairings out and purchasing the after market ones, the

come basically ready to install with very little fitting required.

Dan

N289DT



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