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jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 9:36 am Post subject: Crash

On Sat, Aug 16, 2008 at 12:00:10PM -0500, Joe Scheibinger wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Is it possible your shoulder may have hit the new canopy release lever the 

 factory put between the pilot and passenger?


	


I'm not going to speak for Jay, but I doubt it strongly. The location of the

latch lever, as well as its position when closed and locked, would make it

extremely difficult to open by bumping it with an elbow, much less a

shoulder. It takes a significant pull upwards on mine to unlatch the canopy.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Do you think the new canopy release lever should be moved to a different

 location?


	


I can't think of another location for the latch lever on the inside that

would work any better without significant added complexity - which defeats

the purpose of the new style latch to begin with.

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC                   http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com      http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (FRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC

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_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

hills(at)sunflower.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 11:08 am Post subject: Crash

I have a 601 with the side opening canopy, and mine popped open during run

up on the ground, so I added slide locks to keep the latch from pulling away

from the canopy. After this story, I'm glad I did.  



I would expect an open canopy to greatly, disturb the airflow to the tail,

perhaps even block it.  The added drag would of course be tremendous,

staying in the air would probably depend a lot on the engine

installed and prop used.



Roger

--

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hills(at)sunflower.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 11:12 am Post subject: Crash

Howdy all



When the prop broke off my 601 HDS, I did give me one advantage, without the

drag of the prop, the thing glided really well even into a head wind.  In

fact, I probably set some kind of 601 glide record. (9 miles from 6000 ft

AGL)



(Every cloud has it's silver lining, yes?)

Roger



--

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bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 1:24 pm Post subject: Crash

I took a look at the new latching system on the 650 at Oshkosh and it  

occurs to me that, with both latches directly connected together  

through the torque tube, any attempt to re-latch one side would push  

both latches farther out of engagement and probably cause both sides  

to come unlatched. I'm guessing that's what happened in this case. At  

least with the old system, attempting to re-latch one side isn't  

likely to cause the other side to come unlatched since they latch  

independently of each other. I think I like the old system better.



This incident should be a strong warning that no attempt should be  

made to re-latch the canopy in flight if it has the new design  

latching system. I'm glad it turned out as well as it did, it could  

have been far worse.

On Aug 16, 2008, at 11:05 AM, Jay Maynard wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 I'm at a loss to explain how one side could be unlatched. I've tried  

 in my

 airplane to latch just one side and not engage the hook on the bolt  

 on the

 other, and just wasn't able to without it being obvious there was a  

 problem.


	


-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

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_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

sdthatcher

Joined: 13 Mar 2008
Posts: 91
Location: Port Saint Lucie

Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 6:31 pm Post subject: Crash

Hi Jay,



I'm real glad to hear you made it down safely with as few bumps and bruises 

as you reported.  That sounds like it could have gone real bad quickly.  I 

totaled an Aeronca Chief one time and it's amazing how quickly they come to 

a stop yet how much you remember while it's happening!  It looks like a 

credit to the airframe and overall structure that it held together during 

the impact.



BTW, I was wrong about the openings in the cowl... they are 4-7/8", not 

3-7/8".  I did have a leak in the Baffles that caused some of the cooling 

air to miss the cylinder area but was fixed the next time I replaced the 

cowling.



Hope you and your instructor recover quickly.  I know I'm now going to make 

a note to check the latches a lot more carefully now.  I have a strap but I 

have left it loose for the same reason as Larry... it was meant to keep the 

canopy from flying open and slamming against the top forward skin. I think 

I'll tighten it up before the flight just to be sure.  I have a quick 

disconnect if needed.



Scott Thatcher, Palm Beach Gardens, FL

601XL with WW Corvair, Registered as E-LSA

N601EL, http://placestofly.com, http://eaa203.com,

http://mykitlog.com/sdthatcher

Webmaster: http://zenvair.com





Time: 03:29:41 PM PST US

Subject: Crash

From: jaybannist(at)cs.com

OK, a few facts from the horses mouth:



As most of you know, I have just completed a Zodiac CH 601XL (Lil

Bruiser).  Both me and the insurance company wanted me to get at least

an hour in make and model before I solo my airplane. I discovered a new

service at McKinney Airport (TKI), for training and rental in a 601XLi.

  This was a familiarization flight in a nearly new AMD built 601XLi.

The airplane originally had the old style canopy latches.  The owner

was not satisfied with that mechanism and had the factory retrofit the

new style latches. The owner, Dennis Levy, who is also CFII. was in the

right seat, me in the left.  We had gone through all the standard

maneuvers and were straight and level.  I noticed that the right hand

canopy latch had come loose and the rail was up about 2 inches. I

pointed it out to Dennis. We were in sight of a private airfield, but

Dennis decided he was going to re-latch it - in the air!  In doing so,

the latch on my side came loose and the canopy immediately shot up to

about 50 deg., and the nose went down about 60 deg.  I immediately

pulled the power completely off. We both grabbed what we could on the

canopy but could only pull it down to about 30 deg.  We both pulled

back on the sticks, with all our might, but never got the nose up to

level.  I steered toward an open, plowed field. We hit the ground at



about 10 deg nose down and stopped immediately.  No fire. The canopy

did not depart the airframe. Dennis was air lifted to Baylor Hospital

in Dallas.  I was taken to the trauma suite at the Presbyterian

Hospital in Greenville.  X-rays and CAT scans showed nothing out of

place or broken.  I have a badly sprained right foot and ankle, a

bruised rib cage and lots of cuts and bruises on my arms.  I also have

a slight vision problem.  In pain, but still OK.



It is important to note that this had nothing to do with wings, but

with a new and improved canopy  latching system.



Consequently, I am STRONGLY recommending that any 601 have a fail-safe

strap to the rear canopy bow, regardless of the latching system,  to

keep this from ever happening again.



Alive and still with you - Jay

Bannister________________________________________________________________

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_________________
Scott Thatcher, Port Saint Lucie, FL
601XL with Corvair, Registered as E-LSA
N601EL, EAA203 140 hours and not flying currently.

s.clive.richards(at)homec
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 10:58 am Post subject: Crash

Jay glad you are both ok

                     We have latches as designed by the Late Ed Walanda 

which are spring loaded in a similar position to the new latches & easily 

visible so reclosing the canopy would not affect the latched side I believe 

the new latches are connected by a ridged bar will pulling the canopy closed 

not actually release the latched side ?. We must admit to actually leaving 

one side unlatched once having reopened the canopy & being distracted not 

rechecking but were able to reclose on reaching circuit height & reducing 

power. I wonder however how much the Gas strut pressure will affect the 

ability to reclose, ours at the time had lost pressure & we have just 

replaced. so will think out your idea to fit a safety strap.

Clive

do not archive

Rays 601HD 233 Hrs 701 kit on order

---

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ZodiacGermany

Joined: 22 Aug 2008
Posts: 2
Location: Germany

Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 6:12 am Post subject: Re: Crash

I visited the Zenith booth at Oshkosh and was impressed with the 650 and new latch. I will for sure update to new canopy and latch. From what I gather, the latch is much over designed. The bar connecting the two latches is very tougher. it seems that Zenith put a lot of thought into this. 



As to the Dennis crash, I cannot understand for life of me why anyone would want to open the canopy when aircraft was flying fine. That is quite unbelievable. Thank god that they landed without more damage. I just cannot understand what pilot was thinking. Open the canopy in any fast aircraft and you will be in trouble I think. There have been accidents in Germany with other type aircraft with canopy opening. However, I have never heard of anyone purposely opening the canopy in flight. Unbelievable.



One thing that I find good is that Jay stated that his side of the canopy was open about 2 inches. This is good to know because if I forget to latch one side of my canopy properly, I can reassured that the other side will not open. I do not know if I can say that with my present canopy latch system that was built by Czech company.  I hear reports of other Zodiac aircraft in Europe flying very well with canopy open. It sees that its all about flying speed slow and focusing on the flying. Not trying to close canopy and forgetting how to fly. Unbelievable. 



Again, thank God that accident was not worse.

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