richard.goode(at)russiana
Guest
|
 Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:52 pm Post subject: 25W-60 vs 20W-50 for the Housai? |
 |
|
I honestly can't remember which multigrade oil was used for comparison. But I'm absolutely sure that there is no Russian multigrade aviation oil, so it must have been imported.
Richard
RICHARD GOODE AEROBATICS
Rhodds Farm, Lyonshall, Hereford, HR5 3LW, UK
Tel: +44 (0)1544 340120 Fax: +44 (0)1544 340129
e-mail: richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com (richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com)
www.russianaeros.com
WORLD LEADERS IN RUSSIAN SPORTING AIRCRAFT & ENGINES
In partnership with Aerometal Kft, Hungary.
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Walter Lannon
Sent: 17 August 2019 18:49
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: 25W-60 vs 20W-50 for the Housai?
Hi Mark & Richard;
I too have been wondering which multi-grade oils
the Russians used in their M14P testing. Is there a Russian aviation approved multi-grade oil available or were the tests done with US manufactured products?
If the latter there are only two companies manufacturing this product for aviation use: Phillips with two grades and Aeroshell with a single product. To the best of my knowledge these are the only approved aviation multi-grade oils manufactured anywhere in the world.
From long experience I many years ago came to the conclusion that the Aeroshell W15W50 product should not be used in a radial engine. In those days it was referred
to as 15W50. Aeroshell have been tinkering with the formula for years and have made improvements (extra “W”?) so possibly it is now acceptable. But not for me.
I have been using the Phillips products basically since they came on the market. X/C 25W60 for the radials P&W R985, R1340 and, in later years the Huosai and M14P. I think the X/C 20W50 would be OK for the Huosai but would recommend the 25W60 for the M14P due to higher temps. For my own Huosai however I have been using 25W60 just cause!
You mentioned “Oil Dilution”. That was a wonderful thing in the arctic from the early 1940’s. It was developed for aviation use in the 1930’s by a Canadian aircraft mechanic by the name of Tommy Siers. He spent most of his early years in the Arctic and noticed truckers pouring gas in their oil tanks. The light came on and he went to work. It took until 1939 until it was finally approved for use and was immediately picked up by the US military and the rest of the world. He won the 1940 McKee Trophy for the best Canadian advancement to aviation.
Tommy was the Director of Maintenance and my first boss in the aviation world of 1951.
In more recent years I have removed the system from every T6, Harvard and CJ that I have licensed. In our aircraft types it is now just a potential hazard for the unwary.
Walt
From: Mark Bitterlich (markbitterlich(at)embarqmail.com)
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2019 12:12 PM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: Re: 25W-60 vs 20W-50 for the Housai?
Hello Richard. As you are aware, I typically consider anything you say or recommend regarding “anything Russian” to be above reproach and generally “gospel”. But in regards to this topic I have to respectfully disagree.
You said: “their real problem was that these multi-grades are significantly thinner than single grades when very hot”. I do not know what specific oil the Russians ran their tests on, but oil weight, or viscosity, refers to how thick or thin the oil is and the temperature requirements set for oil by the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) is 0 degrees F (low) and 210 degrees F (high).
Oils meeting the SAE's low temperature requirements have a "W" after the viscosity rating (example: 10W), and oils that meet the high ratings have no letter (example SAE 30). An oil is rated for viscosity by heating it to a specified temperature, and then allowing it to flow out of a specifically sized hole. Its viscosity rating is determined by the length of time it takes to flow out of the hole. If it flows quickly, it gets a low rating. If it flows slowly, it gets a high rating.
Since oil generally gets thinner when heated, and thicker when cooled, the multi-viscosity oils were introduced. These oils meet SAE specifications for the low temperature requirements of a light oil and the high temperature requirements of a heavy oil. This is the best of both worlds and is accomplished by using special additives to increase viscosity with an increase in temperature.
Next, I would like to point out that M-14 equipped Russian aircraft typically came stock with an oil dilution system, where raw fuel was pumped into the oil system prior to shutdown in cold weather to massively reduce viscosity on the next cold engine start. This is a highly effective but somewhat dangerous procedure that relies on a lot of variables and I don’t know anyone that recommends it, but clearly it was included due to the lack of multi-grade oil available at the time, and also because it has been a standard method since before WW-II.
Also of significance is that a single weight oil used in a M-14 equipped tail dragger tends to collect oil in the lower intake tubes. This oil will *NOT* be eliminated by pulling the prop through. Without really extensive pre-heating, this “slug” of oil remains a real hazard to hydraulic lock when starting in really cold conditions. If the owner has intake drain tubes, and primes the daylight out of the engine and fuel does NOT run out the intake drain kit, do NOT attempt to start it! You would rolling the dice.
So bottom line, I have used Phillips 20W-60W Radial Engine Oil, for close to 800 hours in my M-14P equipped Yak-50. It does not leak oil, it still has good compression, and it does not build up in the intake tubes anywhere near what a single grade oil will do in cold weather. So, while I respect Russian testing, I’d like to see their specific results, regarding what oil they tested and how. Since I realize those documents are probably impossible to publish, I’ll just offer that there is nothing wrong with multi-viscosity oils and they are specifically formulated to not get thinner at high temperature, and in fact are tested to meet specific standards as not to do that. My 2 cents, in this case about $1 worth.
Mark
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com) <owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com)> On Behalf Of Richard Goode
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2019 2:14 PM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: Re: 25W-60 vs 20W-50 for the Housai?
I have little experience of the Chinese engine, but I have no reason to think that its oil requirements would be significantly different to the M 14 family from Russia. And I did spend a lot of time in Voronezh with the design team of Vedenyeev many years ago, and they were strongly of the view that multigrade oils were not appropriate for their engines. Importantly, they had done quite a lot of testing, and in those days they had the funds to do that. Of course these oils are relatively thin when cold, which is good, but of course the Russians tend to pre-heat and indeed say that preheating is necessary below +5°C anyway. Then, unlike cars, these engines do not get started frequently for short trips when cold.
But their real problem was that these multi-grades are significantly thinner than single grades when very hot, and they felt did not give appropriate lubrication. And also, as I know multigrade users have realised, tend to leak.
Richard
RICHARD GOODE AEROBATICS
Rhodds Farm, Lyonshall, Hereford, HR5 3LW, UK
Tel: +44 (0)1544 340120 Fax: +44 (0)1544 340129
e-mail: richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com (richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com)
www.russianaeros.com
WORLD LEADERS IN RUSSIAN SPORTING AIRCRAFT & ENGINES
In partnership with Aerometal Kft, Hungary.
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Justin Drafts
Sent: 15 August 2019 17:20
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Re: 25W-60 vs 20W-50 for the Housai?
Ya thanks all, ran my CJ yesterday with the new batch of 25W-60, all seems fine.
Justin
N280NC
On Mon, Aug 12, 2019, 3:37 AM JL2A <info(at)flyingwarbirds.com.au.matronics.com (info(at)flyingwarbirds.com.au.matronics.com)> wrote:
Virus-free. www.avast.com
| | - The Matronics Yak-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List |
|
|
|
Get Email Distribution Too!
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
