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Bummin' on Empty Weight

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tinnemaha(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 10:46 am Post subject: Bummin' on Empty Weight



Hello List,

Having calculated/estimated weights & CGs for paint & fuselage fabric/paint,

I did a preliminary weight & balance on my Series 5 taildragger w/ Lyc O-235

recently. My thinking was to find the ideal location for the ELT (before

covering the fuselage......everything else is done) so as to avoid carrying

balast. I'm very disappointed in the results.

Having been conscious of the heavy engine for quite a while, I feel like

I've gone to great lengths & expense to reduce weight everywhere, especially

in the nose. Alternator driven off the vacuum pump pad, belt groove removed

from flywheel, shortened prop extension 5/8", one electronic ignition, light

weight fuel & oil lines, copper clad aluminum battery cables & numerous

smaller measures. I was so much looking forward to coming in close to Cliff

Begnaud's/Vic Jackson's 870 lbs empty weight for what I believe to be

virtually the same aircraft. My results (w/ELT in the very back):

Rt Main: 436 lbs

Lt Main: 436 lbs

Tail: 42 lbs

Total: 914 lbs

I realize the airplane will still fly fine, but it will not perform like one

that is 50 lbs lighter. I can only take poor & accusing guesses as to where

the extra weight came from (heavy spring aluminum landing gear?, factory

quick build wings?, powdercoating?, varnish on wood ribs? I've really got

no idea!) Any suggestions? I have the medium weight fabric on the wings &

tail surfaces with one coat of pink on. Fabric on the fuselage as well as

silver & paint everywhere was calculated/estimated & simulated with weights

hanging on strings.

More importantly, any suggestions on what I can do now to further reduce

weight in the nose or add functional weight in the tail? Does anyone know

of a 9 or 10 pound tailwheel? God, I hate to add weight at all, especially

to an already heavy airplane! I have a strong aversion to carrying around

balast just for the sake of balast.

I took the measurements with analog bathroom scales & multiplier

arms.......As they got my body weight correct, I have no reason to believe

the scales are inaccurate. I took the measurements 3 times with small

variations in results.

Any suggestions on how to improve my situation (or why I got into it) will

be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Grant

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donpearsall(at)comcast.ne
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 11:06 am Post subject: Bummin' on Empty Weight



Grant, where is the battery located? For the heavy engines, most people put

it in the tail area. I would hate to see you add ballast too. On my KF 5

with Subaru I made a battery box and hung it just forward of the rear

stabilizer.

Don Pearsall

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shoeless(at)barefootpilot
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 11:51 am Post subject: Bummin' on Empty Weight



One of the biggest weight savers on my plane was the use of ASF finish. But

there were lots of little items that all add up. Lightweight alternator off

of a kubota tractor, custom aluminum pulley on alternator, tiny aluminum

skull cap spinner, lightweight starter, 2 electronic ignitions (no mags), no

mechanical fuel pump, minimalist panel, lightweight seat cushions, absence

of fancy interior, lightweight Odyssey battery in the tail, lightweight ELT,

fuselage is painted instead of powdercoated.

There are probably numerous other things that Vic did that I don't know

about.

Don't sweat it, at 914 lbs you still have the "second lightest" kitfox with

an 0-235



Cliff

Kitfox 5, 870 lbs

Grant, where is the battery located? For the heavy engines, most people put

it in the tail area. I would hate to see you add ballast too. On my KF 5

with Subaru I made a battery box and hung it just forward of the rear

stabilizer.

Don Pearsall

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ddsyverson(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 1:21 pm Post subject: Bummin' on Empty Weight



Grant,

I couldn't tell for sure if your greater concerns were weight OR balance.

If it is balance you are concerned with - I know of other folks with a

heavy-engined Kitfox who have put the battery in the tail just below and

ahead of the horizontal stabalizer. This adds little to the weight (just the

addtional wire to the back), but changes the CG a lot if that is what you

need. Finding a location for other things which can be moved towards the rear

of the airplane will help move the CG to the rear also. I am not so sure what

the weight of a battery way out in the tail would do to spin characteristics

- in general a person wants the weight concentrated near the CG as much as

possible for better spin characteristics.

If your main concern is weight, you might consider that the extra 44 pounds

from 870 to 914 isn't all that much - just pick a skinny passenger (one who

is 44 pounds lighter). But the real thing to consider is this - compared to

the same engine (O-235) in a cessna 152 - you're light years ahead in the

performance department even with an additional 44 pounds - You will have

fantastic short field and climb performance with your Kitfox anyway.

Good luck with your project.

Sincerely,

Dave

M-7 in process

On Sunday 08 January 2006 12:46 pm, Tinne maha wrote:

Hello List,

Having calculated/estimated weights & CGs for paint & fuselage

fabric/paint, I did a preliminary weight & balance on my Series 5

taildragger w/ Lyc O-235 recently. My thinking was to find the ideal

location for the ELT (before covering the fuselage......everything else is

done) so as to avoid carrying balast. I'm very disappointed in the

results.

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vicwj(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 2:55 pm Post subject: Bummin' on Empty Weight



Hello, Cliff,

I saw your name on Vic's e-mail, so I am answering your message to let you

know that Vic passed away quite unexpectedly in his sleep on Thursday,

January 5. Will you please take his name off the Kitfox-List so I can

manage his e-mail with less time spent on the general messages. This will

be a great help to me. If you want to e-mail to me reb66(at)earthlink.net or

call 830-372-0444. Your name is the only one I recognize out of numerous

messages; so hopefully you can handle this in a way which would cause no

problem to yourself.

Thanks,

Ruth

 	  Quote: 	
		  

>

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shoeless(at)barefootpilot
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 4:07 pm Post subject: Bummin' on Empty Weight



Ruth,

This is a terrible shock. My sincere condolences! Vic will be missed by many

of us in the Kitfox community.

You should know that Vic has built a very special airplane and it has been

an inspiration for others to attempt to duplicate what he accomplished.

Despite great effort, his work at building a light weight high performance

kitfox remains unmatched.

Vic will be remembered as a giving individual and as a pioneer in our kitfox

community. Vic was well liked and respected by his kitfox friends.

Although I only met him face to face on two occasions, we communicated

enough that I thought of him as a dear friend. My heart hangs heavy with

yours.

Ruth, everyone here also appreciates his lifelong service to our country in

the US Army. For those that don't know, Vic was a retired Major from the

Army.

If you would like to share any other info about Vic with us, we would be

grateful to know more about Vic.

The list administrator will see this message and remove Vic's email address

from the Kitfox list.

Best Wishes to you and your family,

Cliff Begnaud

Hello, Cliff,

I saw your name on Vic's e-mail, so I am answering your message to let you

know that Vic passed away quite unexpectedly in his sleep on Thursday,

January 5. Will you please take his name off the Kitfox-List so I can

manage his e-mail with less time spent on the general messages. This will

be a great help to me. If you want to e-mail to me reb66(at)earthlink.net or

call 830-372-0444. Your name is the only one I recognize out of numerous

messages; so hopefully you can handle this in a way which would cause no

problem to yourself.

Thanks,

Ruth

 	  Quote: 	
		  

>

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Flybradair(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 3:13 pm Post subject: Bummin' on Empty Weight



In a message dated 1/8/06 12:57:06 PM Central Standard Time,

tinnemaha(at)hotmail.com writes:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

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lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 6:20 pm Post subject: Bummin' on Empty Weight



I have been thinking of this thread and have some thoughts.

For the past several years, I have been involved with a group that has had

an annual back country trip to Idaho sometime each summer. All of the

Kitfoxes are Model IVs except for one year when we had a Model III with a

Rotax 912 join us.

Mind you this was a week living out of the airplane. Sometimes we stayed in

motels, but we always had camping gear in case we were overnighting in a

more remote location. My airplane was the heaviest empty at 704 lbs. Mark

had the lightest at 604 exactly 100 lbs lighter than mine. Larry was

somewhere in between. I had carpet, grove gear and lots of other stuff -

PVC wing strut fairings electric trim - everything heavy I could findand fit

in.

Mark always took his son Ty with him. Larry took his son one year. Ty is

in highschool now and Larry's son was in highschool probably 15 years ago.

In short, with camping gear fuel (we topped off regularly) and enough

clothing to not be too offensive by week's end, we were all at gross wt. if

not a couple of pounds over.

What this practically means is that a light airplane has more payload. A

lower empty weight, at least on our trips, was able to carry more souls or

stuff and that's what they did. Only once was there any "pucker" on a

departure and the judicious use of flaps on that occasion lifted the "heavy"

over the trees. I can't imagine flying some serious cross country with

mountains and dirt strips and not be full unless, of course, that is your

home base. Then you have the advantage of living where everyone else wants

to spend their vacation.

For me, I am always looking for the ultralight camping gear. My sleeping

bag weighs 1lb. 13 oz.. and packs to the size of a football. My tent

weighs 8 lbs. and I love it's features. I would have to lose at least 4 lbs

to make a change there. I am also always looking for a lighter smaller camp

chair - a must on an extended stay. Camping gear is in the back; my

backpack straps in where I wish my wife sat more often.

Anyway, don't fret to much on the empty weight. Granted lighter is better,

but in practicality, in my opinion, lighter is only worth some bragging

rights unless you like to travel extremely well.

Lowell

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jopatco(at)mindspring.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 6:44 am Post subject: Bummin' on Empty Weight



Hello Lowell

Let me know when you are taking your trip. I would like to join you.

John

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kirkhull(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 4:25 pm Post subject: Bummin' on Empty Weight



On my classic VI with a suberu I moved the battery all the was back to the

tail and that helped a lot

--

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smokey_bear_40220(at)yaho
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 10:22 am Post subject: Bummin' on Empty Weight

So well said Clifford.  I am in shock and speachless. 

Totally unexpected.



Kurt S.



--- Clifford Begnaud <shoeless(at)barefootpilot.com>

wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Ruth,

 This is a terrible shock. My sincere condolences!

 Vic will be missed by many of us in the Kitfox

community.
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   You should know that Vic has built a very special

 airplane and it has been 

 an inspiration for others to attempt to duplicate

 what he accomplished. 

 Despite great effort, his work at building a light

 weight high performance kitfox remains unmatched.

 Vic will be remembered as a giving individual and as

 a pioneer in our kitfox 

 community. Vic was well liked and respected by his

 kitfox friends.

 Although I only met him face to face on two

 occasions, we communicated 

 enough that I thought of him as a dear friend. My

 heart hangs heavy with yours.

 

 Ruth, everyone here also appreciates his lifelong

 service to our country in 

 the US Army. For those that don't know, Vic was a

 retired Major from the Army.

 If you would like to share any other info about Vic

 with us, we would be grateful to know more about

Vic.
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   The list administrator will see this message and

 remove Vic's email address from the Kitfox list.

 Best Wishes to you and your family,

 Cliff Begnaud

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