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Dual Elevator Cables
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Ed in JXN

Joined: 24 Mar 2006
Posts: 122

Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 10:17 am Post subject: Dual Elevator Cables

Not so quick on the flag-wavin', there...

  

 Aircraft returning from Europe (for sale here in the States) have some  improvements our Friendly Aviation Advisers didn't deem necessary in the  original design, i.e.; high-amp-draw warning lights, low oil-pressure lights,  etc.

  

 We do, however, have the best government money can buy!

  

 "A courtroom is the place where justice is dispensed with."  -   Horace Rumpole,  'Rumpole of the Bailey'

  

 I think John H. and Dennis S. have spoken volumes.  I believe Homer's  designs are more than adequate, no need for dual cables.  FWIW, I had a  3/16 SAS (Stability Augmentation System, sort of an artificial stall-warning)  cable on a Merlin IIIB fail.  Not catastrophic, but goes to show cables can  fail when abused (this one was pinched).  Electrical problems in that bird  got one's attention tho, as the full-flying stab was only driven  electrically.

  

 Ed in JXN

 MkII/503

 Do not archive.

  

  

  

 [quote]   ---

eagle1(at)commspeed.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 1:46 pm Post subject: Dual Elevator Cables

The FAA-NTSB took the  plane to Phoenix to be examined. However they said it 

is way down the line on the list of planes to be looked at. I am afraid that 

it will be months before we get any word on the cause.

     George Thompson

     Do Not archive

---

Steve Boetto

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 365

Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 7:11 pm Post subject: Dual Elevator Cables

In a message dated 12/1/2006 11:14:42 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  does that mean that anyone can build a plane (within the    ultralight limits) and just fly it? 	


 

 "Land of the Free, Home of the Brave"

 Hope it stays that way.

  

 Steve

 FF007

  [quote][b]

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 4:11 am Post subject: Dual Elevator Cables

"Land of the Free, Home of the Brave" Hope it stays  that way.>>

  

 Hi Steve,

  

 Good luck to you. Perhaps you have more open space  to fall into without hurting someone than we have..

  

 We had that freedom in the early days when people  began to add little engines to hang gliders.  Then several bad accidents  occurred and it was either get organised or get banned completely.

  

 Cheers

  

 Pat

  

 do not archive

 



   [quote][b]

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 4:17 am Post subject: Dual Elevator Cables

Land of the Free, Home of the Brave" Hope it stays  that way.>>

  

 Hi Steve,

  

 Just an afterthought. perhaps that is why everyone  seems so exercised about fitting dual cables.  If I had a design that had  never been subjected to a proper engineering analysis I would have dual cables  everywhere.

  

 I dont mind sticking my neck out, I built and used an aqualung from a  Practical Mechanics article the thought of which scares me to death now, but a  flying machine?.......

  

 Cheers

  

 Pat

  

 do not archive 



   [quote][b]

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 4:31 am Post subject: Dual Elevator Cables

However they said it is way down the line on the list of planes to be 

looked at. I am afraid that it will be months before we get any word on the 

cause.>>



Hi George,



that is what I would have expected.  Bit scary that they have such a backlog 

of wrecks to examine though. Planes must be falling out of the sky like 

autumn leaves.



Cheers



Pat



do not archive

flykolb(at)pa.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 4:32 am Post subject: Dual Elevator Cables

John,



The trim tab worked well, if installed correctly.  A couple builders as I

recall switched the spring and the cable attachments and this could result

in flutter of the trim tab, not having enough tension on the spring could

also create problems.  There were some other misc considerations too,

appearance and ease of elevator folding, I think. So as I recall the change

was made to the simpler system on the MK3 for these reasons.



Dennis



--

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 4:37 am Post subject: Dual Elevator Cables

How many innocent bystanders/uninvolved third  parties have been taken out by a legal ultralight? Some? A few?  None?



 Hi Richard,

  

 Passengers?

  

 Pat

  

 do not archive

   [quote][b]

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 4:45 am Post subject: Dual Elevator Cables

The EAA did an excellent job of lobbying the CAA/FAA to allow builders to be creative,  >>

  

 Hi Dave,

  

 There are murmurings hers about a move towards  something like an `Experimental` category and that would be good. Present regs  are too tight. We couldnt change a prop. without approval for instance, but I  wouldn`t be very happy about a`build what you like provided the C of G is in the  right place. That wont stop your flying wires from giving way, or your engine  stopping on climb out because there is insufficient fuel flow.

  

 Cheers

  

 Pat

  

 do not archive

   [quote][b]

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 5:56 am Post subject: Dual Elevator Cables

Legal ultralights do not carry passengers.

 Richard Pike

 MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

 do not archive

 [quote]   ---

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 6:36 am Post subject: Dual Elevator Cables

Then several bad accidents occurred and it was either get organised 

or get banned completely.



Cheers



Pat



 Patrick:



Did over regulation, on your side of the pond, prevent further "bad 

accidents"?



john h

mkIII

hauck's holler, alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 6:46 am Post subject: Dual Elevator Cables

Pat, Well I know of one innocent bystander who was killed by a part 103 hang glider. It happened at Dog Mtn. in Washington state in the late 80's. She was watching a high wind launch when one wingman didn't let go of the wire, the glider did a ground loop and knocked her head first into a rock. 

Right now the FAA is seeking the maximum penalty, 10 years in prison and a $10,000 fine, against an ultralight pilot in Nebraska who crashed his Quicksilver into a storage building along side a football field while carrying a passenger, after dark, doing low level aerobatics, while a football game was in progress. It seems like it wouldn't be possible to pack so much stupid into a single crash, but this fool managed it. Gotta be a world record (Kudos to "Our Man Flint"). 



Rick



On 12/2/06, Richard Pike <richard(at)bcchapel.org (richard(at)bcchapel.org)> wrote:[quote]        Legal ultralights do not carry passengers.

 Richard Pike

 MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

 do not archive

 [quote]   ---

d-m-hague(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 7:36 am Post subject: Dual Elevator Cables

At 09:45 AM 12/2/2006, Richard Girard wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Right now the FAA is seeking the maximum penalty, 10 years in prison and a 

$10,000 fine, against an ultralight pilot in Nebraska who crashed his 

Quicksilver into a storage building along side a football field while 

carrying a passenger, after dark, doing low level aerobatics, while a 

football game was in progress...


	


Typically the FAA doesn't investigate ultralight crashes at all, fatal or 

not... once they determine it was a legal ultralight, they leave it up to 

local law enforcement to conduct any investigation.



In the Nebraska crash, if it's the one I recall, although it looked like a 

2 seater in the TV news film, I didn't think he was carrying a 

passenger.  Either way, as soon as there are two seats, or it's otherwise 

blatantly "fat", unless the pilot can make a convincing case that it was 

being legally operated under a training exemption, they throw the book at 

him, considering it not an ultralight but an unregistered, uninspected 

aircraft, probably unlicensed pilot, no BFR, low flying (unlike part 103, 

the 500' rule applies if they determine it's an "aircraft" and not a 

"vehicle", even if unregistered), low aerobatics, careless and reckless 

operation, etc.  I don't envy that pilot... but he's an idiot, deserves 

whatever he's got coming.



                                 -Dana



--

--

The family that shoots together..... shouldn't be messed with!

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 7:37 am Post subject: Dual Elevator Cables

| Right now the FAA is seeking the maximum penalty, 10 years in 

prison and a

| $10,000 fine, against an ultralight pilot in Nebraska who crashed 

his

| Quicksilver into a storage building along side a football field 

while

| carrying a passenger, after dark, doing low level aerobatics, while 

a

| football game was in progress.

|

| Rick



Rick G:



Is this the accident you are referring to?



http://urlsnip.com/882618



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Ed in JXN

Joined: 24 Mar 2006
Posts: 122

Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 1:11 pm Post subject: Dual Elevator Cables

[quote] ---

a58r(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 2:35 pm Post subject: Dual Elevator Cables

I used a pair of 1/16 in. cables to "elevate" my FireFly for CG measurement, although a single would have been OK. Total drop 2"This thread has become a cable, or vv? regards,

Bob N.    FireFly 070 Old Kolb

http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/

do not archive



 



 [quote][b]

biglar

Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 457

Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 3:36 pm Post subject: Dual Elevator Cables

Ed, the "need" is questionable, obviously, and that has  been well addressed here.  Addressing my insecurity is also questionable,  but sure makes me feel better.  There are obviously many on the List who  disagree with me, and also some who do agree.  It's well established  that the Kolb's are well engineered planes, which is one of several  reasons I bought my kit in the 1st place.  

  

 When taking my flying lessons for my private pilot's license  in Port Angeles, WA, back in '95, my instructor, Roger Andersen, required me to  learn to fly the plane (Cessna 172) with trim only, since, as I recall he  said, "if something happens to the up elevator system, you're in bad  trouble, and this gives you a way to fly the plane."  A couple of BFR's  later, my check instructor had me fly the plane (again, a 172) onto short final  with only the elevator trim, before ending the exercise.  It worked well -  the landing would have been a good one - and I was suitably  impressed.  I believe it was around that time that I was assembling my Mk  III and got to looking at the elevator cable & attachment to  the elevator tang.  "Hmmm," I thought, "what if that thing  decided to pop, for whatever reason ??"  The chances are vanishingly small,  but the picture in my mind of watching the ground come up while I could do  nothing didn't please me much, when an alternative is so simple.  In my  youth I rode motorcycles for several years and several times saw  the brake and clutch cables break.  So.  I ran a completely  separate cable to the elevator tang, and connected it to the trim  mechanism.  I feel much more secure.  If someone doesn't agree with  me, fine.  Don't use it.  But......I  WILL use it.  Don't  bash me for watching out for my precious  ass.                           Lar.

  

 Larry Bourne

Santa Fe, NM

www.gogittum.com

 [quote]   ---

_________________
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Building Kolb Mk IIIC
"Vamoose"

eagle1(at)commspeed.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 5:29 pm Post subject: Dual Elevator Cables

Way to  go Larry, I'm with you. We can never  be too safe in our hobby. I don't think you are overly safety  conscious.

     We went to Dave's memorial  today. It was one of the hardest things that I have ever done. But I got thu the  eulogize without breaking down and it was an absolutely beautiful  program. 

       George  Thompson

  

   Do Not Archive

 [quote]   ---

biglar

Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 457

Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 5:59 pm Post subject: Dual Elevator Cables

Thanks, George, and good on you.  I'd have been snuffling  like a  baby.                     Lar.                  Do not Archive.

  

 Larry Bourne

Santa Fe, NM

www.gogittum.com

 [quote]   ---

_________________
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Building Kolb Mk IIIC
"Vamoose"

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 12:13 pm Post subject: Dual Elevator Cables

Hi Lar,

  

 I had a mate, now dead, unfortunately, who was a  gunner in a Halifax. He told me that his skipper always rounded out on the trim.  Not quuite pattern and approach I agree but  pretty neat.

  

 Thanks for the pics. we may use your hotel if we  make it to MV next year

  

 Cheers

  

 Pat

   [quote][b]

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