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quick build 601 XL (long)

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allenricks(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 3:20 pm Post subject: quick build 601 XL (long)



Mike,

I think I'm the only one on the list that has the new quick build kit.

There are three others on the West coast that have one, but I have not seen

responses on the list.

I received my QB kit just before Christmas, and have had little time to do

anything with it due to the holidays, kids out of school, bad weather (still

rearranging the garage, as I was not sure the fuselage would fit where I

planned It did) and some other family stuff.

I have not actually seen up close what the standard kit looks like when it

arrives, but from the pictures Ive seen, my kit has a LOT of the work done.

I have been told that about 9500 of the 10,000 holes have been drilled, so

that eliminates a lot of the room for error. A bunch of the holes that are

left to drill are in the rudder kit, which I have already done. (I even

drilled two holes in the wrong place, but a quick e-mail to Nicholas H. let

me know it was not a fatal error).

For those of you with the standard kit, my kit arrived with the fuselage

essentially ready to put on the gear. All drilled, corrosion proofed,

riveted etc. I mean the thing is pretty much done to the point that the

engine could be hung on the firewall, as the studs for the mount are in

place. The leather interior (came with it) is ready to go in. I can

already sit in it and make engine noise, but I wont until its on the gear.

Think that would save any time? 

Most, though not all of the remaining pieces have holes drilled in them, so

if they dont line up, youre putting the part in wrong and you need to

check again. If it fits, its probably right, and ready for a quick brush

of Core-tec, cleco, and rivet. The wings were put together on a jig,

drilled, clecod, and taken apart again for shipping, so they are much more

finished than the regular kit as well.

The above being true, there is still a whole lot of work left. I will need

to corrosion proof the wing parts and put them together. Lots of wiring,

plumbing, avionics (what I can afford) engine installation etc. to do. It

also appears that many of the parts have been zinc chromate coated on the

mating surfaces too, so Im not sure how much corrosion proofing I will have

to do.

I know that some feel the QB kit is not a real kit plane building

experience. There are plans builders that think the standard kit is not a

real building experience either. Im 40, and have two kids. I want to

build the plane in my lifetime without having my kids hate me or my wife

divorce me, so I went with the QB kit. Hey, the difference for the QB is a

LOT cheaper than a divorce. I figure however long it takes me to build the

plane, I will be flying YEARS ahead of where I would with the standard kit.

Yes, you can buy a plane to fly right away for less money. It will however,

be MUCH more expensive to fly and maintain. Ive wanted to build since I

was about three, and have been collecting kit aviation magazines since I was

very young. All forms of building, and aircraft rental or ownership for

that matter, have trade offs. The QB kit seemed the best choice for me.

By the way, the quality of the parts and building appears to be excellent.

The rivet lines and spacing are very uniform. Most of the standard builders

would hate me if they saw the QB kit and realized the time it would save.

That being said, it did cost more.

Regards,

Allen Ricks

Beaverton (Portland) OR.

Quick Build link:

http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/xl/xl-qbk.html

I have read several posts that indicate the building process is much more

complicated and time consuming than what is advertised by zenith and this

really scares me away from the "kit build process." About the three years

ago I purchased the rudder for the 701 and was able to finish it with no

major problems in about 25 hours, but since then I have been on a three year

deployment with the military.

I am curious to know how much of the "new builder mistakes and

frustrations" might be aleviated by the quick build 601 xl kit? I am a new

and timid builder with little and long ago builder experience.

Any advice offered would be greatly appreciated. Thank you, Mike Pedri,

US Army

JAPhillipsGA(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 4:32 pm Post subject: quick build 601 XL (long)



Allen, what we all can't understand if you've had this kit since before

Christmas why you aren't flying yet? Sounds like a couple all nighters would have

you and it to the airport, Just funning, Hope it comes together well and keep

us posted on how long the QBK really takes, Best regards, Bill N505WP

do not archive

allenricks(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 5:32 pm Post subject: quick build 601 XL (long)



Hi Bill,

I figure I'll need at least two long weekends to finish. 

Seriously, I tend to be very methodical, so I'm hoping about 500 hours or so

for the airframe.

Less would be even better. Then there's engine, avionics, electrical, and

paint

work to do...

My research before building showed that most people (that kept track) took

about 1000 hours

give or take for the standard build. I'm guessing there is more slop than

people admit when

they leave the shop for a while and stare at the drawings for a couple of

days before proceeding.

Oh well, at least most of the interior is done...

My goal is a year, but safety and family first, so it takes as long as it

takes.

As a comparison, here's a link to Van's QB kit picture. Note that the

fusalage AND the wings are pretty well done.

Van estimates there is about 1000 hours left to do.

http://www.vansaircraft.com/images/rv-7 quickbuild lg.jpg

Versus the Zenith QB page:

http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/xl/xl-qbk.html

Many people don't understand that the small stuff, not the big stuff is what

takes the time.

Allen

jhstarn(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:12 pm Post subject: quick build 601 XL (long)



That's where the ole adage comes from,

"90% complete with 90% to go".

We did the slow & slower build kits. Yep kits..

Partial RV-4 kit with plans and John Harmon parts

and plans for the HRII. No pre-punch or located holes.

Read & blend (parts & plans), cut & fit, measure & mark,

drill & deburr, re-read plans (2 sets) & blend, call for advise,

re-read the plans and come back tomorrow.

There is always a tomorrow. 8*)

HRII N561FS KABONG Do Not Archive

 	  Quote: 	
		   I'm guessing there is more slop than

people admit when

they leave the shop for a while and stare at the drawings for a couple of

days before proceeding.

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p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:27 pm Post subject: quick build 601 XL (long)



One big difference with Van's kit is the solid dimpled rivet

process. That is a lot slower than the blind rivets used on the Zodiac.

Paul

XL wings

do not archive

At 05:24 PM 1/1/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Van estimates there is about 1000 hours left to do.

	


---------------------------------------------

Paul Mulwitz

32013 NE Dial Road

Camas, WA 98607

---------------------------------------------

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 7:29 pm Post subject: quick build 601 XL (long)



Another big question is what engine you will choose.

-- Craig

allenricks(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 8:51 pm Post subject: quick build 601 XL (long)



Craig,

Not sure yet. I'm leaning towards the Jabiru. It seems

to be the best fit. Really expensive. The Rotax is expensive

to buy AND expensive to maintain. The Lycoming O-235 is expensive

to buy and heavy.

I want something very reliable that has a well

sorted install kit so the auto conversion are out for me. I know

there is a contengency of Corvair proponents, but the engine is a

little on the heavy side, and if I were going heavy I'd lean

towards a rebuilt O-235 instead.

The Jabiru is installed in the factory demo plane, and at 800+ hours it has

more total time than any single install of most of the auto engines have.

The Jabiru is finally getting enough of an install base that I think it will

be around for a while.

That being said, I will wait until the very last minute to make a choice on

engine and avionics, as things seem to be changing at a rapid pace.

In avionics the Dynon with the big screen and the engine guages in it looks

pretty

good. Wonder what we'll get a year from now?

Allen

Another big question is what engine you will choose.

-- Craig

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 9:22 pm Post subject: quick build 601 XL (long)



If I were going the manufactured-engine route then I would choose the Jabiru

too. I think it is telling that Zenith switched from the Rotax to the

Jabiru. And going with a direct-drive engine can only lead to less trouble

than choosing an engine with a re-drive. And the XL FWF kit for it is

getting better and better.

That being said I'm going the Corvair route. Heck, I've *gone* the Corvair

route - I shipped my parts and myself to Florida and helped build my engine

at William Wynne's hanger and test run it. If I had unlimited funds I don't

know what I would choose. But having bought my "kit" 80% complete from

another builder I see the engine and control panel as the two areas were I

get to innovate (or over-design).

As you say you don't have to make a decision for a while but do remember

that different motor mounts use different studs on the firewall. Anyway keep

an eye on the Corvair world as you build. Right now you can get complete

rebuilt engines for $6000. And motor mounts, nose bowls, exhaust and intake

manifolds are all available for the XL. Yes, they all cost but the

difference between the Corvair and Jabiru 3300 is still going to be $10,000.

We need to get a 601XL/3300 next to a 601XL/Corvair to compare weight and

performance.

-- Craig

daveaustin2(at)sprint.ca
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 7:17 am Post subject: quick build 601 XL (long)



Not sure why you say the Rotax 912 is expensive to maintain. Mine is 11

years old, 565 hrs and all I do is change the oil and antifreeze every year.

Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII

allenricks(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 5:03 pm Post subject: quick build 601 XL (long)



Hi Dave,

Actually, I'm just comparing the cost of the overhaul at a shop, as well as

looking at parts prices. The Rotax 912 is North of 10K to overhaul, and the

TBO is much less than the O-235. The cost per hour exclusive of

maintainance

between overhauls is about the same to a little less for the O-235.

Obviously

what happens between overhauls makes a big difference.

The overhaul cost on the Jabiru for the top at mid time and the overhaul at

TBO is still less than

either of the other two. The pistons run about 30% of the cost of the Rotax

pistons

I'm still researching the reliability (in terms of maintanance requirements)

of the

Jabiru but it seems less expensive than the other choices.

obviously the amount you fly, and the care you take makes the biggest

difference.

Allen

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 6:01 pm Post subject: quick build 601 XL (long)



I was out at St. Charles Flying Service finishing my Sport Pilot license

when one of their mechanics returned from "Rotax School" in Wisconsin. This

is all second or third hand so take it for what it is worth: what he heard

is that the Rotax engine will run forever but the redrive will not.

(Corvair atheists stop here)

And in my role as that annoying buzz around your head I will say that you

can build a Corvair engine (new cam, pistons, con rods, rings, bearings,

lifters, valves and seats, push rods, every gasket, rebored cylinders and a

reground & nitrided crank for less than the cost of a rebuilt certified

engine. Heck, you can buy the whole thing put together for $6,750

(www.flycorvair.com/engine.html).

One of the nice things about the engine is that you pay auto prices for

parts instead of aircraft prices. Bear in mind that many of the components

listed above are built for tricked-out motors for dune buggies that put out

far more power than the engines we build for Corvair-powered planes. The

situation is similar to Volkswagen engines for planes. It is true that

Volkswagens like the Areo Vee consist of entirely new parts of which the

only remaining part made by Volkswagen is the block. Anyway (some) people

accept the VW engine as a respectable experimental aircraft engine but think

that the Corvair engine is tainted or voodoo in someway.

All flames cheerfully ignored. We now return you to our regularly scheduled

program.

-- Craig

ggower_99(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 11:42 pm Post subject: quick build 601 XL (long)



That is a great idea!!!! a series of compare flights of the two airplanes, I am sure there will be no looser, just diferent flying charateristics where all of us can chose the engine from.

Hope some writer from a magazine (Kiplanes, Sport Aviation or Plane and Pilot) reads this posts and works on the idea...

planejim(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2006 12:01 pm Post subject: quick build 601 XL (long)



Ditto on the 912. I've got 500 hrs on mine and am now removing the gear box

for reshimming. Lockwood recommends this and it is not expensive. Phil says

the basic engine will go for 1500 hrs easy. It's been a easy to maintain

engine.

Jim Hoak

601HD flying 500hrs.

do not archive

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